13/05/2017 Dateline London


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13/05/2017

Foreign correspondents currently posted to London look at events in the UK through outsiders' eyes, and at how the issues of the week are being tackled around the world.


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This week: a sacking in Washington, a timely election leak in the UK,

:00:25.:00:29.

and Donald Trump's visits to the Middle East and the Vatican.

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Debating all of that are Stephanie Baker,

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from the international news agency Bloomberg News,

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Janet Daley, political columnist with Britain's Sunday Telegraph

:00:37.:00:40.

newspaper, Jonathan Sacredoti from i-24 News, an Israeli

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Mustapha Karkouti from the Dubai-based newspaper, Gulf News.

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Donald Trump sacked plenty of would-be business moguls

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on the reality TV series "The Apprentice", barking "you're

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James Comey received his dismissal as Director of the FBI in a note.

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Getting rid of TV contestants doesn't have many consequences;

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sacking the head of the country's key crime fighting agency when he's

:01:05.:01:07.

investigating those around you, well that's proving harder

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What was he thinking? He did not handle the swell. He is not good at

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firing people. The messaging was incredibly messy. He tried out,

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various Trump surrogates to argue that this was prompted by a memo

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from the Deputy Attorney General calling on his dismissal because of

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the handling of the Hillary Clinton e-mail investigation. No one was

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buying that because Trump had praised his handling of that

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repeatedly as had Jeff Sessions, the Attorney General. Then Trump

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contradicted his own staff, and that he had been planning on firing him

:02:05.:02:09.

anyway and he was thinking about the Russia investigation when he decided

:02:10.:02:14.

to do it and actually the trigger had been watching James Comey

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testify last Wednesday, where he said that the notion of his

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intervention in the election to tilted towards Trump made him out of

:02:24.:02:30.

the notches. That enraged Trump. The interesting and controversial thing

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is the involvement of Jeff Sessions. He excused himself from the Russia

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investigation because he was a key figure in the Trump campaign and his

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involvement in the firing of Comey has raised a lot of questions and

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criticism from Congress. He got flack for saying he had met the

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Russian ambassador but had not mentioned it. Exactly. Lastly, Trump

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dug his -- dug himself into a bigger codger Mercy with a veiled threat to

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James Comey that he might not leak because they might be tapes. That

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has set up a whole round of speculation about what kind of

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taping system he has, good the comparisons with Nixon get any more

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stark? You have top Democrats in Congress calling on him to release

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whatever tapes he may have. I think that this is getting very troubling

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and I think, his credibility is under question. He has appeared to

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calm down a little bit in Washington. It looked like the

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administration was getting into a rhythm of working. It is not just

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the inconsistencies and contradictions, inexperienced White

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House administrators do often screw up and contradict themselves, but it

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is the shamelessness of it, it is the preposterous arrogance of it. He

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contradicted his own earlier account of why he had sacked him and turned

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it on his head and he did not seem the slightest bit embarrassed. Word

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is this Rovira, narcissism, how can that possibly be credible in a

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President? I am old enough to remember Nixon and Watergate and

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there was at least a degree of shame and embarrassment and culpability

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and when those tapes were released, the Watergate tapes, and he was

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caught red handed having plotted the Watergate burglary and what was most

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shocking, to the American public was the language that he used. Everybody

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discovered that he spoke in the most obscene stream of four letter words

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to his aides, they talk like gangsters, now Trump talks like this

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in television interviews! There is something very peculiar that has

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happened to the American political consciousness, for this even to be

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not instantly impeachable. It gets to the whole issue of Nixon who went

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to great lengths to deny that there were any tapes and now we have Trump

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advertising that he has them. Perhaps making it up. I think what

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is interesting about this is that we are dealing with the President who

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plays by different rules, they are the rules of entertainment and

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television. He seems well versed in those in ways that other politicians

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are catching up then and while the media are on the whole condemning

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him for these sorts of behaviours and absurd things he is saying, it

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seems at odds of the way that the President of speaking. He is hiding

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the real issues. The issues that he does not want discussed, like the

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investigation into the alleged collusion with Russia is not what we

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have discussed before. I would also say that like him or not, we need to

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say there is very little concrete evidence that that has happened and

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President Obama was also caught in 2012 saying that he wanted a bit

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more time to get through his next election... These are not things

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that politicians have not done in the past. He is the master of

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distracting from them. The word collusion is a very strong word,

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which implies there was conscious conspiracy with a foreign power, and

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an friendly form her, that is tantamount to treason. The idea that

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you have to prove collusion makes the case really hard. You think the

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standard should be lower? Yes. I do not think collusion is the right

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word. I was in Washington, DC and I was talking to officials. The main

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worry is about democracy, what is happening, what is the impact, what

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with that leave of democracy itself? Their main worry, is that society

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itself, it cannot guarantee to stop that impact in a way. He is very

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dangerous. They are really scared and frightened by hand. This is

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really testing US institutions. I think he is democratically elected

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as President even if people around this table do not like him and he is

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following procedures, other people have been fired in the same role. He

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was accused of filling his expenses. He went for a process that has

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President and he is somebody, Comey is someone that the Democrats wanted

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to have fired. They have looked awkward because they have gone from

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say that this man was responsible through the election, one Democrat

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told me that James Comey is a bit of a Boy Scout. It is difficult for the

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Democrats to agree. They have said unfortunate things about him in the

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past. In a sense, you could read, their interpretation of this as

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having considerable integrity. Even though they have got a grudge

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against him and they have grounds for objecting to him, they do not

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like the way this has been done. That is a legitimate thing to say.

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The issue is the timing, why is he doing it now? If it was about

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Hillary Clinton, why was it not done the day after the inauguration?

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Comey was about as for more resources to pursue the Russian

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connection. Donald Trump is probably glad to be getting out of the

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country. After the week he's had,

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President Trump may be mightily He's heading to Saudi Arabia

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and then to Israel before This is something much bigger and

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has much bigger consequences. I wonder if people are viewing this as

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a serious attempt to move the process forward in terms of the

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Israeli and the Palestinians are whether it is just a bit of

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international diplomatic theatre. It is extremely serious. That is what I

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hear and also from the Americans themselves. At the same time, being

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in that shaky position, I don't know how much that will impact on his

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international activities and policy. He is very serious, he has been

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talking to the Palestinian President and his people are saying that he is

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very optimistic, apparently he did tell Abbas that he was serious about

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the question of pressing Binjamin Netanyahu to come forward and sort

:10:22.:10:25.

this out, because at the end of the day, there is an agreement, there is

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an agreement between the two sides on the agreement, but the Israelis

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are hesitating in moving there. Just on the question of the Israeli

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position, Binjamin Netanyahu has been the dominant player in Israeli

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politics for well over a decade but he is still only the head of a

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Coalition government partly because the electoral system in Israel, is

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he in a strong enough position to take some kind of initiative?

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Historically, it has been right wing Israeli ministers who have managed

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to make peace deals with Arab neighbours and I think there is

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plenty of optimism around and I think Donald Trump really puts

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forward a new window of opportunity for both sides. It seems that both

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leaders have visited him in DC and both have come out of that

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surprisingly saying that they got on very well with them, including Abbas

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who said that there seem to be some area for development and that

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is surprising because everyone assumes that Donald Trump would be

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firmly on the side of Israel. What Donald Trump has to do now is what

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we have been discussing before, turn this from being a show and being all

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about him, this is the man who prides himself on making deals, this

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is the ultimate deal and turn it into concrete action. He did the

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first step by making both sides like him, something that Barack Obama

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failed to do, he put a lot of pressure on Israel ask you for

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preconditions that the Palestinians had asked for, including onset of

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building. If anything, it in bold at the extremists on the Palestinian

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side. Trump has managed in 100 days to get both sides favourable towards

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him and perhaps to consider new negotiations. The issue has always

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been that talks had been hobbled by preconditions, either going to be

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preconditions, because we have been here before so many times?

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Preconditions are really used in order not to take action, it is a

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tactful thing and it is really ridiculous in a way, because the

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whole plan is quite clear, there was also about 20 years ago, both sides

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agreed and sat together and agreed on peace plans, there were other

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meetings following that. It is the right wing government in Israel

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which is really putting these obstacles, the settlement question

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is very serious. There is an argument... The Palestinian

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authority is paying the murders of people like the British student who

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was stabbed. Soldiers who engaged in warfare. People who stab Christian

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British students are not necessarily peacemakers. Those are not so little

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for the families who lost people in terrorist attacks. Not little for

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the Palestinians who lost people in military action. They are wrongly

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used to create obstacles in front of peace. If you remember the press

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conference that he gave, it was quite absurd in the sense that he

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was saying, you guys sorted out between yourself and what ever you

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agree on will be all right with me and I will sit here and do... Were

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ever. It just shows the most appalling ignorance of the

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difficulties and the complexities of the situation. I don't think he has

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a clue. He is not the point man, his son-in-law is. The reason that both

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sides but be feeling optimistic is because they think there is a vacuum

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in the White House and if they both played their cards cleverly enough

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they might be able to get... Isn't that what both sides really needed?

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Even though his method of saying it is absurd A, what he is actually

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saying is he will not impose things from outside, he wants to

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facilitate, he has a ridiculous way of saying things... What he said

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was, you figure out a deal that satisfies both of you, there is no

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deal that satisfies both of them, that is the whole point and someone

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has to arbitrate and if he is saying, I am not interested in

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arbitration... I think he is keen to arbitrate but he is saying he will

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not impose preconditions and vote for unilateral moves at the UN. I

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suspect that what we are dealing with is a President I work we do not

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understand how to read his service appearance. I am hoping. Maybe that

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is all there is! I was in Washington, the Americans are

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worried about the whole situation, because the entire region is in

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turmoil and it is flaring up. This might transpire to the Palestine and

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Israel situation. Imagine if that happened there, what is going to

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happen? He is going first to Saudi Arabia which is an interesting first

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white? The first trip of a US President is loaded with symbolism.

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Going to Saudi Arabia, he is expected to get a warm welcome,

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ironically, despite him pursuing this Muslim ban, Saudi Arabia

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escaped that ban. I think leaders in Saudi Arabia who are keen to reset

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relations, and were disheartened by the pursuit by Barack Obama of the

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Iran nuclear deal, we reported this week that actually the Saudi Arabia

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are prepared to invest in US infrastructure and that could be

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unveiled at the same time. You could sell it as a domestic thing.

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Exactly. Making America great again. The fact that he is warmly regarded

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in Saudi Arabia could change the balance of power. Iniesta goes here

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since. I do think largely speaking he is going on to the Vatican were

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ironically he might perceive the roughest reception. Old to be a fly

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on the wall! Pope Francis has criticised him, his immigration

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policies and then he goes on to the G-7 will be heard finance ministers

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expressing concern about the threat that his policies pose to

:16:57.:17:00.

multilateral trade and the possibility that his moves could

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harm global growth. In addition to the economic aspect, don't forget

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Iran is going to be the main... He is building a Coalition that can

:17:16.:17:20.

deal with Iran and Isis and for the first time those three are in

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relatively good terms with each other and with America, something

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which lie, not is gratuitous. It could be a moment that needs to be

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seized. It's less than a month now

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until Britain goes to the polls. The oppposition Labour Party

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had its manifesto leaked, whilst in a joint TV appearance,

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Prime Minister May and her husband lifted the - bin -

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lid on their marriage. Last time, the pundits

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predicted a hung parliament This time, the talk

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is of a landslide. Janet, you and I were sitting next

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to each other only two years ago, when you were proud to have been

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pretty much the only person who predicted that the Tories were going

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to win and that was not going to be a hung Parliament. Will you make a

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prediction as to? Absolutely. Everyone will make the same

:18:09.:18:14.

prediction, so I will not be unique. I have not met anyone who said they

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would vote for Ed Miliband and that is why I make that prediction and I

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have met here people who said they would vote for Jeremy Corbyn.

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Considering that it is a foregone conclusion, this election, it is

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surprisingly not boring. Partly because the Labour thing is such a

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Marx Brothers production, it has become so shambolic, so for pure

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entertainment value, it keeps you riveted. Everyone is also

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speculating about what happens after is, what happens to Labour

:18:43.:18:58.

and the Tories afterwards, what does Theresa May really believe in terms

:18:59.:19:01.

of political principles. If she actually a Tory or is she trying to

:19:02.:19:04.

occupy the centre-left left empty by Tony Blair. The big question, will

:19:05.:19:07.

Jeremy Corbyn stay on as leader? It looks now as if he is intending to

:19:08.:19:10.

and there is a lot of subterranean gossip about the leak of the

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manifesto, was that intended to undermine him or was it intended to

:19:13.:19:16.

rally the militant faithful to make sure he is allowed to stay on

:19:17.:19:19.

afterwards? What will happen to that space that used to be occupied by

:19:20.:19:26.

soft left opposition in this country? That is the most serious

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question. How are you describing the selection if you are touching it at

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all to your readers? It is very difficult, in a way, extremely

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difficult, because the way we see it happening, the election system here,

:19:43.:19:53.

based on constituency, in a way, is not presidential. Jeremy Corbyn may

:19:54.:19:57.

have a better chance if that was a presidential system, because of his

:19:58.:20:03.

populism policies and all of that, but we see it extremely difficult

:20:04.:20:08.

for Labour to increase their seats in Parliament. They may lose a lot

:20:09.:20:18.

more this time around. It is totally difficult to explain to our readers

:20:19.:20:26.

this situation in Britain. There is no leadership of quality on both

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sides, I must say, not only on Labour, the Conservative leadership

:20:32.:20:34.

is not that impressive. It is not high-quality. I think that is very

:20:35.:20:40.

unfair on Theresa May, she has played a blinder, she has managed to

:20:41.:20:45.

unite our party that has always been divided over Europe. Is that

:20:46.:20:49.

temporarily? Look how well she is doing, when plagued other leaders

:20:50.:20:52.

and then we look at Jeremy Corbyn who on the other hand have been

:20:53.:20:55.

trying desperately to appeal to voters at the far left and the

:20:56.:20:59.

middle ground, offering things like extra bank holidays and free

:21:00.:21:03.

tuition, it is a miracle he has not offered everyone a free puppy or a

:21:04.:21:13.

unicorn. Then he said he was not a pacifist, we knew that, he has had

:21:14.:21:16.

no problem with the IRA or organisations like how mass and

:21:17.:21:18.

Hezbollah who specialise in killing civilians. He would say that they

:21:19.:21:20.

were in situations they were forced into where they had no choice. He is

:21:21.:21:25.

certainly no pacifist. He is not saying now that he would necessarily

:21:26.:21:29.

accept those situations in current circumstances. He said he would

:21:30.:21:36.

invite Hezbollah for tea. When someone was not leader of the party,

:21:37.:21:39.

that is when we see their true colours. I'll be seen enough of

:21:40.:21:44.

Theresa May, what this leadership means? She's talks about strong and

:21:45.:21:47.

stable leadership but that is almost all we have got so far. Has she done

:21:48.:21:53.

very well for a Remainer? She is now coming out as Mrs Brexit, people are

:21:54.:21:58.

accusing her of wanting some sort of extreme Brexit, I would dispute this

:21:59.:22:02.

distinction between the two. It is such a false dichotomy and I think

:22:03.:22:06.

Theresa May is proving fairly consistent. She has been reliable

:22:07.:22:10.

and perhaps a little bit boring for her whole

:22:11.:22:28.

career, she is the first prime ministers who has not tried to play

:22:29.:22:32.

it cool and she is continuing with the vicars daughter act, I think it

:22:33.:22:35.

is not an act, that is the point. I think it is really heard. We have

:22:36.:22:38.

this manifesto lake and we might have expected more hostility to it

:22:39.:22:40.

than we actually got, has something changed in the political mood, when

:22:41.:22:42.

renationalise the railways and restricting energy competition is

:22:43.:22:44.

something that even the Prime Minister wants to do. I think most

:22:45.:22:47.

people wrote off that leak of the manifesto as of no consequence

:22:48.:22:50.

because he has no chance of winning. In a sense, the policies do not

:22:51.:22:54.

matter. That is part of the reason why I find this to be one of the

:22:55.:22:58.

most boring elections I have witnessed in this country. At the

:22:59.:23:02.

same time, one of the most important, I think, in decades,

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because of the impact on the country long term. With the terms of Brexit

:23:07.:23:11.

being negotiated. She has called the election just as Britain is

:23:12.:23:15.

teetering on the brink of an economic slowdown, we do not know

:23:16.:23:19.

how severe it could be, why the Eurozone is just taking off. In that

:23:20.:23:25.

sense that this is the shrewd politics, get it out of the way

:23:26.:23:28.

before things get messy. Absolutely and it is shrewd of her to have

:23:29.:23:34.

pushed ahead with it now. I do wonder... The reason why it is

:23:35.:23:38.

boring if it was just confirmed the status quo and it is a question of

:23:39.:23:42.

how big a majority she will get. I wonder if she will get as big a

:23:43.:23:46.

majority as people are expected because the expectations are that it

:23:47.:23:50.

is a slam dunk for the Tories are why even bother voting and there is

:23:51.:23:56.

a certain degree of weariness with elections that we have had 2015

:23:57.:24:01.

general election, 2016 referendum and that the turnout could be very

:24:02.:24:06.

difficult to predict. I would be inclined to agree under other

:24:07.:24:09.

circumstances but the referendum politicise the country in a peculiar

:24:10.:24:15.

sort of way. People are politically hyperactive and they are not bored

:24:16.:24:19.

with this, actually. They might be bored with this particular election

:24:20.:24:22.

debate but they are not bored with the idea of who might lead the

:24:23.:24:26.

Brexit negotiations. That is a matter that many people regard as a

:24:27.:24:29.

matter of life and death and the idea that there could be any remote

:24:30.:24:32.

chance that they could be let into the Brexit negotiations by Jeremy

:24:33.:24:39.

Corbyn, I think that will galvanise. This is an extremely exciting

:24:40.:24:41.

political moment for British people, for the first time in at least one

:24:42.:24:44.

generation they had been given a direct say in the future of the

:24:45.:24:47.

country, the constitutional direction it will take and they know

:24:48.:24:51.

that they will need a leader who's going to carry them through that. It

:24:52.:24:54.

is incredibly risky and that is why many people who did not like the EU

:24:55.:25:00.

voted remain. On that argument, they have that lead already, she was

:25:01.:25:06.

there and they could have on. She said she was planning that.

:25:07.:25:17.

I am worried a little bit, we should not ignore the younger generation. I

:25:18.:25:23.

have three children and they all think differently. And they are

:25:24.:25:30.

pro-Jeremy Corbyn. They actually go out and vote? They will, no doubt, I

:25:31.:25:36.

will myself. These are three kids, they represent, I think, a good part

:25:37.:25:42.

of the society itself. That is an interesting change in the way

:25:43.:25:48.

voters, the breakdown of the traditional alliances. Instead of

:25:49.:25:51.

having class as the defining characteristic of who votes for

:25:52.:25:55.

which party, it is now generations. I was at Cambridge the other week

:25:56.:26:01.

and I will not say which college and I was talking to a considerable

:26:02.:26:05.

number of students and almost to a man they were saying they voted to

:26:06.:26:09.

support Jeremy Corbyn in the leadership and they were ruing the

:26:10.:26:14.

day and they regretted it. We will all know the outcome in just under

:26:15.:26:21.

one month. Thank you all very much for being with us.

:26:22.:26:23.

That's it for Dateline London for this week -

:26:24.:26:25.

we're back next week at the same time.

:26:26.:26:27.

You can of course comment on the programme on Twitter @bbcshaunley.

:26:28.:26:30.

Hello there. It is not plain sailing weather wise. They have low pressure

:26:31.:27:05.

across the north-west of the UK and that is giving quite a bit of cloud

:27:06.:27:11.

train but for many, there is sunshine on offer. That

:27:12.:27:12.