23/06/2011 Dragon's Eye

What do Charles de Gaulle and Edwina Hart have in common, and why

is the pop supremo Pete Waterman taking up with Cheryl Gillan? This

Good evening. You remember Pete Waterman, the 1980s chart-topping

songwriter and record producer. He's a big fan of high-speed rail.

We have built railways, and we have built roads on that green, pleasant

land for over 50 years. We can't turn the clock back. But the Welsh

Home Secretary doesn't want it in her constituency. Some of Wales's

Academics and business leaders have told this programme the whole

sector could be damaged unless they can charge higher fees.

Academics have been saying for a decade there is a serious

escalating funding gam between Welsh and English universities.

They argument it makes it more difficult for institutions to

compete on the world stage. The Welsh and Irish Learning Society

was established last year. Their analysis of the funding figures for

Welsh universities compared to their counterparts makes for stark

reading. They say there was a funding gap of �361 million between

English and Welsh institutions. The comparison is worse when looking at

Wales and Scotland where the gap was over �1 billion in the same

period. A professor has twice conducted reviews into university

funding on behalf of Welsh Ministers. The worst case scenario

means we don't have the capacity to attract really ace researchers and

teachers to our universities or that people get the impression -

that's bad enough we can't pay the kind of salaries as elwhere.

That'll stop people coming. We have to be careful not to make it worse

so we don't seem like a cheap place to go to have a degree.Ation

fees were introduced get more money into universities. They have

increased to pint Welsh students pay around �3,400 a year. With fees

in England about to rise to �9,000 a year, the Welsh universities say

they'll make up the difference and some want to increase their fees to

the same amount. Five out of ten university have submitted proposals

that would see them charge �9,000. To do that they had to prove they

would provide a better experience. Three universities want to charge

�9,000. The other five universities haven't made public their plans.

The �9,000 figure was the upper limit the English Government wanted

to allow universities to charge, and they would have to give some

money back to students, the expectation really that nobody

would want go up to that much. We now know virtually everybody wants

to go to �9,000 because there is a psychology here. Who is going to

charge less than somebody Wells the danger is it a cheaper degree?

wouldn't a university want to charge the maximum it can given the

understood funding and the desire to do its best by its students and

staff. All the proposals were rejected by HEFCU. The institutions

were told to improve their plans. The universities' plans for that

much in tuition fees were sent back to the drawing board. Leighton

Andrews said this showed Wales was taking a robust approach to the

issue. Unless an agreement was reached, the universities wouldn't

be allowed to charge anymore than �4,000. We need universities in

Wales that are going to have the capacity to invest in excellence,

widening access and working with business. I think at a time when

other universities across the UK are charging �9,000 fees and core

funding from Government is disappearing, any Welsh institution

which can't go over �4,000 is going to struggle. Some of the more

expensive courses, the at once Government is particularly keen we

should teach, the science courses, would be at risk. Critics argue the

Welsh Government budgeted for tuition fees being an average of

�7,000, so there will be a black hole in their spending plans if

they're actually �9,000 per student. All the universities that have

responded so far said they'd like to charge �9,000 with the odd

course being �8,200. That is enormous. We may have a funding gap.

This is something the Government would have to address over the next

two to three years. It's not a problem next year but in two, three

years' time, the if there is not something done there could be a gap

in the pay. They say it's affordable. Academics say it's not.

The reality is that the cost of higher education is going up. The

taxpayers' contribution is going down. At the end of the day, it's

going to be very difficult to maintain the fee level at �3,400.

Some are concerned there is public brinksmanship between universities

and Ministers and the funding body on the other could in itself be

damaging. There is an element, no doubt, of public megaphone coming

into this. The Welsh Minister will have to answer for that himself,

but the process is something I support. Where they stand in the

right way - that is up to Leighton Andrews. Other universities may not

get the funding they like, but they still get a huge amount of public

spending. It's the duty of the Welsh Government to make sure it's

being spent wisely. It will be clear what impact that has on Welsh

higher education next month when the fee level is decided.

Well, let's - that was Brian reporting. Let's hear from the

Education Minister Leighton Andrews. Welcome to Dragon's Eye. Do you

accept that the economic situation in which the universities find

themselves mean that they have to charge higher fees in order to stay

competitive? They have to persuade the Higher Education Funding

Council they're responding to the guidance we put in place which said

if they want to charge fees of �9,000, then they have to invest in

attracting students from a wider variety of backgrounds and they

have to invest in improving the student experience. They have

clearly failed to far to persuade the council they're able to do that.

Is the fact all ten universities had their initial plans rejected

illustrative of confusion behind the scenes? Is it clear to them

what they have to do in order to meet these guidelines that have

been issued? It's very clear because the Assembly debated the

regulations back in March and voted them through, and I issued guidance

on the back of those regulation which was sent to the Higher

Education Funding Council. They discussed that with all the

universities in Wales. It's not me that rejected the fees plans. It's

that body. A 100% rejection rate, though, is surely an indication of

lack of clarity behind the scene, isn't it? A 100% rejection rate

I think it's an indication that the universitys have clearly not done

enough to persuade the council they're investing enough in the

student experience or have done enough to widen access in

participation into hire education. I think it's a shame when the

National Union of Students of Wales that you just broadcast - they

would have been saying strongly twhaimt to see clufrts are planning

to -- universities who are planning to deliver this... They say after

virtually a decade of underfunding they're potentially in big trouble

unless they get permission to charge this. We have had a very

generous support system in place for students more generous than

elsewhere. That's been perhaps where the balance of our funding

has gone. If you add together the student finance we put into place

and the hire education funding it comes out on a match with England.

I think the reality of life - this is coming clear now in figures I

have received from the council is Welsh universities have been very

Conservative in their borrowing compared to universities in England.

That means they have not been making a sufficient investment in

the student experience. They are underborrowed, and maybe that at a

time when we have been through an economic crisis has been good knew,

but they need now to look much more seriously about their investment

plans for the future and whether they should be using their money -

their assets better to provide more investment in the student

experience. When we hear from the likes of Teresa Reece, somebody who

has been invited by Labour-led Governments to look into tuition

fees - she's a woman who knows what she's talking about. I take her

views seriously indeed, but when I look at new figures which have been

given to me by the Higher Education Funding Council, we see the

universities have been leveraging their assets to invest more in the

student experience and to invest in higher salaries and to attract more

star lecturers. Let's look at affordability. That's the other

issue which concerns have been raised, whether your policy will be

affordable in the long run. Aim right in thinking you modelled on

the basis of around about �7,000? Both �7,000 and �9,000. I have

discussed this on this programme with you and on other BBC

programmes with your colleagues over recent months. We're confident

of the figures that we have set out up until 2016-17. This is not a

cheap option, of course, investing in the support we're providing for

students. It will cost us money, but we have made a commitment, and

the Labour Party made a commitment in its manifesto to fund this for

the lifetime of this Assembly. if some higher - if some

universities or, indeed, all universities ultimately get

permission to charge the maximum amount, there is absolutely no

question of any hole in the affordability of that in terms of

the plans you have made? We have been through the detail of this

internally in the Assembly Government. We have discussed it

with the council. We're confident there are of course uncertaintys in

all of this. We can't predict, more can the Government in the UK

predict, what is going to happen to demand for university places if

fees go to �9,000 nor can we predict with absolute certainty the

cross-border flow of students between Wales and England. Throws

difficult things to calculate, but we have put in place a policy we'll

deliver. If there are �9,000 permission granted, will you end up

taking more money out of the teaching budget? Is that how it

will work We'll balance the budget. Look at what's happening across the

border - cuts of 80% in the teaching grant, in universities in

England being imposed by the Department for Business, Innovation

and Science. I think we're continuing to invest in higher

education. We're not the people who are refusing to invest in future,

in the arts and humanities, as they are in England. It's a good deal we

have created both for universities and students. I can't understand

for the life of me why you didn't opt for the Scottish model, being

that they help out - Scottish domiciled students who study at

institutions in Scotland because you've already admitted yourself

that there are uncertainties over cross-border flows and so on, and

the Welsh Government faces the prospect of subsidising the English

hire education sector if a lot of Welsh students decide to go across

the border. That seems strange. You've got brain drain concerns,

haven't you, if a lot of students decide to do that. This is a policy

that was supported by the One Wales Government of Labour and Plaid

Cymru. I think the Liberal Democrats also support policy. The

only political party that doesn't want too support students are the

Welsh Conservatives. They'd make Welsh students pay the full rate of

fee wherever they study in the United Kingdom. I happen to think

this is a policy that is good deal for Welsh universities and students.

The Scottish model reduced a little bit some of the uncertainties you

were talking about in terms of the modelling of who decides to do what

and go where, wouldn't it? We have developed our own policy in Wales

we think works for Wales. As I say, that was supported by both parties

in the One Wales Government and I think the Welsh Liberal Democrats

welcomed it as well - it's the Welsh Conservatives that forced

Welsh students wherever they studied to pay the full fees.

you very much for joining us. you. Now, it's an issue that Cheryl

Gillan, the Secretary of State for Wales, feels so strongly about, she

says she's ready to leave the Cabinet and resign the party in

Westminster. UK Government plans for a high-speed rail link through

her constituency in Buckinghamshire have put Conservatives at odds with

A green and pleasant land, less than 30 miles from London.

Admission features in the Domesday Book and is proud of its history --

Amersham features. It is worried about its future. I think the route

passes through an area on outstanding national beauty. If it

goes ahead on this route in this fashion, and I am asked to vote in

Parliament on it, I could not and the Prime Minister knows that as do

my colleagues and I have always behaved in an open fashion. I have

not changed my position, it is the same as it was in the last Labour -

- and the last Labour government announced it. This is what the fuss

is about. A new rail route with trains travelling at more than 200

miles per hour between London and Birmingham. The high-speed to put

it has put some ministers at odds with their government. This

restaurant, and anger local party has seen contributions to Tory HQ,

scout. There is strong support for Cheryl Gillan's stance. We are

expect her to represent our views to the best of her ability. Clearly

the decision about her position in the party is one for her. That is

something we would wish to discuss with them but it is not for me to

say when that comes out today. But... Would you be happy were she

to remain within the Government that is putting this through her

constituency? That would be a topic for another day, David. This

memorial commemorates the Amersham Masters, a group of local men and

women who were burnt at the stake for their religious beliefs. 600

years later, sacrifices are made in rather different ways. There is no

doubt that it would be no small loss for an ambitious politician to

give up her seat at the top table of the UK Government over a

constituency issue. The consolation for show of Gillan, perhaps even

the driving force, is that many of her constituents appear to agree

with their local MP. The MP has been really, really good and we

have been going to the meetings, they have been positive so yes,

hopefully we will win. She has taken a strong stance on it and she

obviously feels very passionate about it if she is prepared to

resign over it. It is a big sacrifice but she represents the

voters from around here and the voters around here would like her

Supporters of High Speed Two, including the Prime Minister, said

it would narrow the North-south divide. The campaign in Westminster,

including record producer and rail enthusiast who says it is essential.

No choice. No choice, we can't put it on Sky Box. God did not give us

skyhook, he gave us terra firma. We have built railways on the green

land forever, we are not Luddites, we cannot be forced up inside the

Commons, the issue for Cheryl Gillan's threat to resign was

raised with the Prime Minister. Secretary of State for Wales has

said that she is prepared to be sacked because of her opposition to

high-speed rail. Will the Prime Minister take her up on the kind of

the? -- the kind offer. A prefer to

focus on the fact that as one year in Welsh Secretary, she has to give

something that 13 years of your will sector has not achieved much

of the electrification of the line between Cardiff and Paddington.

some experts say the group would benefit the economy in North and

Mid Wales. This line in its ultimate position where it is

intended to go to Manchester, it will connect things to the line

from all Wales. It is that wine, electrified by that time -- North

Wales, that will give speedy movement into North Wales from

inward investors. The same thing applies to mid-Wales via Birmingham

were fast trains again to Birmingham will reduce train times

to places like Aberystwyth. That is yet to commit the Secretary of

State. Never in the two years that this product has been discussed as

I have or had any submission of the mass benefits to Wales. That is not

to say it may have more benefits. parliamentary vote on the route may

still be years away but a government decision is expected

before Christmas. It is then that Cheryl Gillan may have to decide

between her Cabinet job and because to do its.

The David Cornock reporting. The business Minister Edwina Hart is

not one to mince her words but her succinct rejection of an invitation

to a committee of Welsh MPs has raised eyebrows in Westminster and

in Cardiff Bay as well. Politics probably has not in a

refusal as blunt as this one since General Charles de Gaulle's find

this blackballing attempt of what There was not even a yours

I was astonished, really. Why wouldn't any politician want to go

and explain their case, why wouldn't any politician want to go

on and say this is what the Government is doing wrong. This is

an opportunity to say what the coalition-led government which she

is not supporting, can do better for Wales. The Minister was

unrepentant when challenged about it. The economy is my

responsibility here in Wales and that it am capable in doing that.

Politics is often about the art of saying no. Edwina Hart, like

Charles de Gaulle, prefers it without the sugar coating.

The Western Mail's political editor David Williamson joins us in

Westminster and former Plaid Cymru Assembly Member Helen Mary Jones

joins me in the studio. What is the usual etiquette, David, when a

Minister declined an invitation to give evidence to a committee?

think a committee would normally expect to have some detailed

explanation, perhaps a suggestion of other dates and such things. It

is the a to play in this which has made this letter so explosive -- it

is the plane at way in which this letter. She has had a famously

spiky relationship with Ben Bradshaw and she did not see eye to

eye them. People will not be surprised by the prospect mobbing

her top priority. Was she just downright rude? You could argue

that members of the members of the committee were not expecting her to

come. I am convinced that we have asked ministers from Westminster to

come down and talk to us and it is very unusual but they tend to send

officials. With this clear separation of powers, we have

ministers going down the M4 motorway like Yo Yos. They don't do

that anymore and that it we need a protocol which works both ways

whereby if there are cross-border issues which are to be discussed,

then Westminster ministers will come to talk to committees in the

Assembly but there is a point about who our ministers answerable to,

they are not answerable to Westminster MPs, they are

answerable to be scrutinised by the AMs that we elect. At suppose,

David, she was under no Higher Education Funding Council

obligation to attend. -- she was under no obligation to attend.

is possible. The committee does have another option and that would

be to subpoena her and that would be a spectacular stage in the

evolution between the Assembly and Parliament. I do not think that as

a possibility, but there is an interesting question, in that what

does the Welsh Select Committee exist to do? The committee members

look at bodies like UKTI, a body responsible for encouraging

international investment into the UK and trade with other countries

and they say if this is not an issue which goes beyond simple

devolution, what is? Helen Mary Jones, the political and it is

interesting in this been that there is surely a danger in this

boomeranging. She could be sending a message to the elected

representatives of the Welsh people? To whom she is not

answerable. But even though she did not go necessarily, it was the way

she did say she was not going. latter have been bandied around so

we would like to see other letters. I have worked closely with Edwina

Hart both in opposition and when we were working together in government

I have to say that discourteous is not the word that would come to

mind at all. She is very direct and likes things to be done properly.

She likes rules and regulations to be applied and she likes to know

what they are but I do not think she is discourteous. I do not think

this would have been political. It may have been a simple question

that she is not available but even if she is, there is the question of

who she is answerable to. I think the Welsh Affairs Select Committee

has got a great job, I would like to see them scrutinised the effects

of housing benefit changes. Talking about the thousands of Welsh women

who are losing pension rise. Westminster putting their noses

into matters that are frankly double. Will this go anywhere?

think it will leave quite a taste in the mouth we have seen a real

tension building up, especially this week, between the two ends of

the M4 motorway. We have the First Minister coming to London and

making a very passionate case for white energy policy should in part

be devolved to the Assembly and then being slapped down within

hours in a very public way. This is just one more event in a succession

which some people are saying is creating a negative environment for

people to look at will put on think this is where decision-makers talk

to each other in a positive and help the way? I think that is an

important point and the way we deal with that is by having proper

written protocols in place and then perhaps we can develop a real

If you would like to share your thoughts with that or anything we

have discussed, please do so. Senders and e-mail on the address

below. Normally that address appears at the end of the programme

but I am mentioning it now to give our political editor Betsan Powys

chance to leap into the chair next to me. She only had 20 seconds but

she is as nimble as a mountain goat! Well done. Catch your breath!

You have something to tell us on the suspended Lib Dem AMs, tell us

of their situation. They were barred from the Assembly because it

was found they were members of public bodies, that AMs may not be

a member of so they are disqualified, they are no longer

Assembly Members. A complaint was made to the police that they had

broken electoral law, that was by the MEP for UKIP. John Dixon and

other drivers have been told that there is no case to answer, they

will not take things any further. A fairly high threshold would have to

be proved. It is a higher threshold than Assembly Members will

certainly face when they come in to decide on the future. What happens

now in terms of resolving this? They need a majority over 30 AMs to

support them and bring them back in and overturn the disqualification.

I have talked to Plaid Cymru, they are probably the most sympathetic

group. Not all of them certainly. I put the Conservatives in the middle,

mostly answer but that it backed by no means all. That means Labour.

One of the linkages was out of date apparently answered the Labour am

was apparently misled. Clearly some of them do not believe in and I

think it is a handy excuse and that is why one commissioner says in his

report, he will be busy writing now, he says of the tone will be crucial

for these two. Do we have an idea of the timetable of that report?

final decision could be made on Wednesday. It could be put off by a

week but it will not be much longer. At least the CPS have come back

before the end of term. The concern was that they would not. They can

see the end of the tunnel but I am not convinced that there is a light

at the end of the tunnel for them. If the answer is no, what happens?

They are list members so the next on the list would pop up, for

example in Cardiff Bay. The Lib Dem group would be the same size but

might not be the members that the leadership might want. It is a

difficult one, this, in terms of the amount of time it takes to

resolve. We are talking about voters remaining unrepresented.

are but it could turn the other way round, you might come to the

conclusion that they would be disqualified and then the next day

the CPS would come back and say there is no case to answer. It is a

relief that at least the information is there and the

Assembly Members, whether sympathetic or not, can have the