14/07/2011 Dragon's Eye

A fire storm engulfing the press, the police and politicians. Tonight,

the Welsh people caught up in the hacking scandal. This is Dragon's

Good evening. After similar -- simmering away on the back burner,

the phone-hacking scandal has now blown away any murk at around the

police, MPs and newspapers. News Corporation it was asked to drop

its bid for BSkyB. And it did. The police investigation continues and

many potential victims wait to find out whether their privacy was

After years of managing to keep a lid of sorts on the phone-hacking

allegations, in the last week, everything boiled over. It was to

see one of the world's biggest news organisations shaken to its very

foundation, threatening its business and reputation around the

world. Stories about phones being hacked have been dropping out for

years. Some have taken legal action against News International and have

been paid handsomely by the corporation. But it was when it was

found that the family's and victims of crime, those who had been caught

up in terrorist attacks and the families of British troops killed

in action had been hacked that the corporation lost control. This

lady's son was serving in Afghanistan. She was angry when she

heard that the phones off the families of men and women serving

in Afghanistan and may have been hacked boss Bob it is at the worst

possible time in their life. They are going to hear an awful lot of

grief. A lot of bewilderment. A lot of not knowing what to do next or

how to do it. I just don't see how that can equate to making a story

that's going to hit the headlines. Richard was the 200th of the

British Armed Forces to die in Afghanistan. She has set up a

charity in his honour. But the police are not able to say whether

her phone was tapped. The very papers who supposedly have a great

deal of support for the military services go and do something like

this. To me, that is the ultimate betrayal of those men. It is

literally having somebody stab you in the back when you thought

somebody could trust to -- when you thought it was somebody you could

trust. It is totally unfair, underhand and incomprehensible. It

makes you feel sick to your stomach. The Government, spurred on by

Labour, started an inquiry to look back at what went wrong. Lord

Justice Leveson has been appointed to oversee the inquiry into the

News of the World scandal and media regulation. He will have the powers

to call proprietors, politicians and editors to give evidence.

of the depth of the depravity to which this newspaper went was not

known to us until quite recently and some of the things that have

been trying to save the last year in Parliament about the way the

news of the well-behaved, I knew or I guessed, but we could not prove

it, another proof is out there. There was a rough ride from a

committee, as with previous inquiries. Politicians in the

spotlight on taking action. I am on the News of the World's database. I

don't know exactly what these twisted minds get up to. So

basically I am just covering myself. I don't know what lines of inquiry,

current inquiry, will lead to. Either in wrongdoings or alleged

wrongdoings, and what will emerge. A few years ago, I was being called

incessantly by News of the World, and I was so convinced there were

hacking my phone that I told people at the time but it was not a big

story and people were not interested. But now it looks likely

that my phone was hacked. It is thought it could go back to 1999.

This man accidentally discovered how easy it was to listen to

voicemail on any mobile phone. Two tabloid newspapers were shown at

this simple procedure. They were amazed. They were gobsmacked.

Basically, they could not believe what we told them. They said they

would come back to me after they had tried it out. They rang me back

after a short time and said, yes, it works, it is brilliant! Leave it

with us. This is going to be massive headlines, a front page

story, but we have got to do work with at first. Those torpid and

local news a national radio at the time -- those on a local news.

think I may have inadvertently started this. It is clear but the

latest police investigation is intent on shining light where

others did not. And that means in the weeks and months ahead, it will

be possible to see where this will end.

Earlier, I spoke to a member of a Select Committee who were asked a

number of police officers why the first investigation failed to find

out the scale of the phone-hacking. I was very dissatisfied with the

answers. Clearly, some had some 17 investigations on the go at the

time. Other answers were simply incredible and I think this is a

long way to go. It is important to note there is now an investigation

by the Independent Police Complaints Commission into the

allegations that police officers had been paid for information, and

that first is a very important first step. But we have to look at

the wider issues as well. And of course, there is another

investigation going on and we were invited to look at the scale of

that investigation in some of the evidence you heard? Yes, it is very

clear that the new investigation with a new senior investigation

officer is now seen as very important. It is some reassurance,

given that the -- the Met seemed to get it wrong. What other questions

that you would like to see the enquiry answering? There are

questions about why the first investigation did not make use of

all the the nation that was available to it. What were the

relationships between the Metropolitan Police and there

seemed to be... And the media, and there seem to be new facts and

revelations coming out as time goes on. I don't think we know the whole

of the story just yet. And there's the question of just how these

sorts of techniques were able to develop and how far they extended

more broadly within journalism at Fleet Street. All of these are very

important questions. And are you happy with the terms of reference

that have been set out by the Prime Minister? They do seem to cover the

important questions, although I would hope that the inquiry would

follow the evidence where it leads. If fresh questions emerge, the

inquiry will be constrained from following the evidence. The Prime

Minister said he hopes that part one of the inquiry, which has

largely addressing the questions you have outlined, will report back

within a year. Do you think that his ambitious? I do not think it is

over-ambitious. That is very be undertaken quickly and we must

come to conclusions. The problem with old-style inquiries is that

there are very slow and bureaucratic and may find out

everything at the end of the day but almost by the time it is too

late to do anything to change practice and culture, and, when

necessary, lead to change in legislation. I think this is a

watershed moment and a moment that needs to be seized. Parliament, I

think in the last week, has seize that opportunity. It is very

important inquiry takes us where we need to go and it is not any cause

for delay. On the point of this been a watershed moment, there have

been people who said it represents a permanent shift in the power

dynamic between politicians and the press. But given that Rupert

Murdoch is not the first press baron who has had arguably too much

employ and several politicians, how convinced I knew that you can say

with confidence this represents a permanent change? -- how convinced

that I knew? I think we felt the tectonic plates moving within this

week and that is why it is so important we do not take our eye

off the main issues. The issue is, how much power does a commercial

organisation or individual have in the UK and it is a question not

pursued vigorously enough in the past. It now has to be pursued very

vigorously. We now have the opportunity to do so because there

will be a permanent shift and journalists will note that they

have to stay within the bounds. I think good journalists who want to

be responsible investigators, who want to get to the truth, and make

sure things come out in the public interest are very distinct from

those who just want to be in and do what their bosses want them to do

in terms of selling papers. I think this is a moment which actually

will free up decent journalists. That involves the Press Complaints

Commission being re-established on a totally different bases. The

current one is a laughing stock. We need an Independent Press

Complaints Commission of some sort but it needs to be genuinely

independent, underpinned by legislation and able to do its job

fearlessly in the interests of both the public and decent journalists.

Thank you. The Conservatives in the Assembly

have a new leader. He beat the rival contender next Ramsay by 53%

to 47%. The sea was lost previously, in spite of the fact that he won it

previously. -- the seat. We are now joined by Mr Davies.

Congratulations to you. A few weeks ago on this programme, the Deputy

Leader of the Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament said his party

had a lot to learn from the Welsh Conservatives and the way they

approached politics. What sort of lessons do you think your party's

reasons success has to teach? think we have got a great brand

here are Wales. And that is whether we are working in Westminster or

the local Assembly. This shows how many members want to engage with

the National Assembly and the Assembly group. We have had over 20

meet and greets, two mail shots and members of really embracing the

devolution aspect. How do you intend to build on recent success?

Above all, to deliver a positive message. Were have a great country

we live in, a good economy we can build on and actually we need to

make sure NHS and jobs are top of the priority list. Sadly, we have

not been able to deliver to people and Wales what they want. I want to

make sure we are proud about being Welsh and proud of being part of

the United Kingdom, and we will accentuate that at every

opportunity. Labour have just one of the elections, so that would

suggest they are delivering what people want? They did not come back

with a majority, which is something that Carwyn Jones set himself. They

are not delivering on education and the international indicators show

that Welsh education performance targets are at the bottom of the

league tables and the economic indicators show Wales is at the

bottom of that as well. I want to make sure we turn that around and

people look to Wales and say, we are proud to be Welsh. Very

recently, the four parties have agreed to terms of reference to

look at the way Wales is under it. What is your position on fiscal

devolution? Are you a supporter? Ultimately, my colleague was in

discussions yesterday and a letter was sent on behalf of the joint

leaders of the group in the Assembly to the Secretary of State.

I have been imposed for a few hours... But you must have given

the opposition during the campaign? Will you set it up for us here on

Dragon's Eye? Well, I will make sure Wales gets the resources it

requires and that it has a campaign... And that above all it

develops these services here in Wales to provide economic stability,

opportunity and the jobs that will keep young people here in Wales.

And when you look at the Government's legislative programme,

not one reference to business or economics. I am not clear on your

answer to my question. Where do you We will have the Calman Commission.

We delivered the referendum and power was to the Assembly. We are

standing up for Wales. The people here want a real alternative. We

will succeed. Thank you. On Tuesday in the Prime Minister was welcome

to Cardiff Bay. He confirmed there would be a commission looking at

the way the Assembly was funded and suggested that Wales could learn a

thing or two from the reforms to public services in England. People

are looking to you to improve their lives. Let me be frank, like a many

other parts of the UK, or some public services in Wales are too

bureaucratic. I believe that now is the time to modernise a were public

services and in England that is what we are doing. After Mr Cameron

left the chamber, there was another big speech. The first minister

detailed laws he wanted passed in the next five years. The opposition

said he overlooked things like the A plan to promote economic, social

wealth. The Welsh government says the laws it will introduce over the

next five years world create healthy people and vibrant

communities. There are a lot of people out there that should be

allowed to have a site like this said they can develop it, like I

have done here, and everyone has an opportunity to get out of the house

and garden. It gives a sense of achievement to people when they

grow their own stuff. It is a great money saver. Your own vegetables

always taste the best! And getting more people out in the fresh air at

tending plots like these is part of the vision. There are 20 people on

the waiting list of this allotment. That government says it will

introduce a law that will free up more land to meet the demand.

Legislation will give guidance to councils and individuals. If there

was a genuine need for more plots, individuals can go to the council

and followed the legislation that has been put in place. The First

Minister also said there would be legislation to tackle

underperforming schools and to change the system of organ donation

so that people opt out of it rather than opt in. There are plans to

make councils provide cycling routes in key areas. Also, parents

will need to give their consent before a child has a cosmetic

piercing. This is the most detailed programme to be presented to the

Assembly and since the referendum in March, he can push on without

asking permission from Westminster. But does he programme meant the use

of the talk at his disposal? It is not going to set my own or anyone

else's past alike. People will be helpful to have them, but it's

nothing great. And on fundamental issues like the economy, some claim

they is a lack of focus. You cannot make laws of that create jobs. You

do it through the use of France and loans and creating a policy that

makes Wales attractive to investments. The first minister

needs to show some leadership. We need to turn the corner from

focusing on the social economy. We need to talk business. The First

Minister says other parties have a part to play in nurturing new

policies. He says there needs to be scrutiny, but warned against

political point scoring. Without a clear majority in the Assembly he

is likely to need other parties to muck in and give their support.

Some proposals may be nipped the but, but others may reach fruition.

I am joined to discuss all of that by representatives from all parties.

Welcome to Dragon's Eye. So, what is the big idea? A I was proud to

be in the chamber when it Wales set out its legislative agenda without

having the permission of Westminster. We have four themes.

Sustainability is that the heart of everything we want to do. There is

also the improvement of health, justice, or social care and

government issues that will free up sectors of the economy in Wales. We

have a huge green agenda to push forward as well. What did you make

of it? I think deep disappointment was in terms of the economy. Carwyn

Jones is right. You cannot legislate to get jobs, but you can

legislate to give the talks to local government to create jobs. We

can create her Welsh stock exchange, used Business rates to create jobs.

It was a glaring omission and it shows back the priorities of this

government is not about finance. you legislate you cannot legislate

for job creation, why is it on the agenda? Well, there was nothing to

encourage people to come to Wales in the statement. We have nothing

that gives us any flicker of hope as far as employment is concerned.

Isn't this really a programme from a government that does not have a

majority? Yes, it is historic, but we wanted to see more detail. We

have been waiting a long time for this statement and I think we need

to have much more detail. For example, the hysterics -- historic

buildings Bill. That is not coming in for a while. I still think there

is arrogance there with the Labour Party. They need our support if

they want to get bills through. Where was their emphasis on job

creation? Our emphasis is on sustainability and getting things

right and generating economic renewal which will make Wales a

better place to come to to invest, to live and to be. That is across

an enormous range of things like tourism, social welfare, making our

environment at the centre of everything we do, to invest in our

tourism industry and make Wales attractive. Fiddling around the

edges with business rates, which does not need legislation by the

way, and sorting out issues regarding enterprise zones, we have

only got �10 million to put into that area. We will be doing that,

but in a way that get the most out of our money. The First Minister

taught about the responsibilities on opposition parties to be

constructive and to find consensus of where possible. What do you

regard as the largest opposition party are the obligations on you to

facilitate or otherwise be programme of the government?

have any late -- a new leader from today, so we will be sitting down

and discussing our agenda. We will not be destructive, but we will

challenge where we need to. What are your thoughts on the roles of

the opposition parties with the arithmetic as it is? They need to

be constructive. We need to deliver an agenda and a government that

have the best interests of the people of Wales at heart. We will

try to make sure that the bills that go through of the best for the

people of Wales. We do need to refocus on the economy, however.

it is possible, in theory, that your party or Peter Black's party

could find itself in coalition with the government. How does that

impact on your party? What is disappointing is that we have been

calling for a plan of government for some time and I think the lack

of respect in terms of giving us concrete evidence if Carwyn Jones

want a coalition of the future, he needs to be more respectful of

Plaid Cymru. I don't think we are getting at the moment. Carwyn Jones

has less power than Alex Salmond. We need to get access to Alan

natural resources, it changed the planning laws. There's their areas

he needs to look at. The plan has been viewed as underwhelming. Is it

due to unrealistic expectations? do not think it is disappointing.

We set out a comprehensive programme across a for big fines

for Wales. They are all important. We have a consensus on fiscal

devolution. It is very important and drives economic change. What

are your thoughts, very briefly. Was it oversold during the

referendum? I don't think it was, but people want to see that

government putting their words into action. We had been so long in

waiting for action people are disillusioned. A I think it has

been oversold by Carwyn Jones. He has talked it up and when it

finally came it was a disappointment. I had been waiting

a long time to be where I am. It is tied to get down to business.

far all the opposition parties, this is entirely down to the Labour

Party. Julie Jones, I will give you the final word. I think we have

done so well so far. I hope we have scrutiny from the opposition, but

also consensus. Thank you. That is it for this week and this term. We

will be taking a break over the summer. It has been a very busy