12/07/2012 Dragon's Eye


12/07/2012

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 12/07/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Party politics aside, how should we change the Welsh health service?

:00:05.:00:15.
:00:15.:00:22.

This is Dragon's Eye. Good evening. People across the UK

:00:22.:00:26.

are being encouraged to sign up to the Organ Donor Register as part of

:00:26.:00:27.

National Transplant Week, but the debate over the Welsh Government's

:00:27.:00:31.

plans to introduce an opt-out system continue to be controversial.

:00:31.:00:33.

Dragon's Eye has received copies of documents under the Freedom of

:00:33.:00:36.

Information Act that show that the UK Government raised concerns over

:00:36.:00:39.

whether it was desirable, feasible or necessary to run two different

:00:39.:00:45.

systems. The Welsh Government also promised to continue paying for the

:00:45.:00:48.

UK organ donation system while it found the money for the new opt-out

:00:48.:00:58.
:00:58.:01:06.

system from its own budget. Here's Brian Meechan. Ultimately everyone

:01:06.:01:10.

wants to the same outcome - increasing the number of donors to

:01:10.:01:15.

save lives. But how to do that is a source of passionate disagreement.

:01:15.:01:19.

The transplant figures for Wales have increased in the last five

:01:19.:01:27.

years. The number of donors has risen to 45 in 2007-08 to 67 in

:01:27.:01:32.

2011-12. There's been a rise in the number of people on the register,

:01:32.:01:38.

by 5% over the same period. The co- ordinators of the organ donation

:01:38.:01:42.

system say it is because they've changed the way it operates. Since

:01:42.:01:51.

2008 when the team increased to 12 and they were placed as residents

:01:51.:01:57.

within hospitals, we have almost reached the 50% increase target set

:01:57.:02:01.

down by the task force. Some critics of the presumed consent

:02:01.:02:07.

proposals suggest kite damage the successes seen so far. People may

:02:07.:02:11.

feel uneasy whether we call it presumed consent or deemed con

:02:11.:02:16.

sthaent there is somehow some sort of line being -- consent, that

:02:16.:02:21.

there is somehow some sort of line being crossed that their organs or

:02:21.:02:24.

bodies are no longer their property. Unfortunately that might leave

:02:24.:02:29.

people to take the decision to opt out. Mike Stevens a transplant

:02:30.:02:39.
:02:40.:02:44.

What we are talking about is an opt-out system with safeguards, the

:02:44.:02:48.

of the opt-out if you like. There is an opportunity to opt out but

:02:48.:02:54.

there'll be a discussion with the family of every potential donor to

:02:54.:02:58.

ascertain whether this really was their zifrplt as is the case now,

:02:58.:03:03.

at the moment if your name is on the Organ Donor Register legally

:03:03.:03:08.

your organs can be used for transplantation. That doesn't mean

:03:08.:03:12.

that there's a mandate that they have to be removed. That's still

:03:12.:03:18.

going to be the case if we change to this new proposal. Spain was

:03:19.:03:25.

widely quoted as the example when presumed consent was proposed in

:03:25.:03:29.

Wales. But the Spanish co- ordinators say presumed consent had

:03:29.:03:34.

no impact when it was introduced and is no longer used in practise.

:03:34.:03:38.

They argue that having specialist medical staff in hospitals and more

:03:38.:03:45.

intensive care beds is what organs are deemed to be suitable

:03:45.:03:50.

for transplantation purposes, then they must die in a critical care

:03:50.:03:53.

environment. I think that research demonstrates that in countries

:03:53.:03:58.

abroad where there's been a welcome improvement in levels of organ

:03:58.:04:05.

donation that money has been pumped into seeing to it that there is

:04:05.:04:09.

plenty of critical care space available. The Royal College of

:04:09.:04:12.

Surgeons has raised concerns about operating one system in Wales and

:04:12.:04:17.

another in England. It could lead to legal as well as practical

:04:17.:04:21.

problems for medics, since surgeons are responsible for ensuring that

:04:21.:04:29.

Scotland and England have a slightly different law and they

:04:29.:04:33.

make things work without too many difficulties. I believe we will be

:04:33.:04:38.

able to do the same. I believe this will be successful, as long as we

:04:38.:04:42.

approach it in the right way. Scandal engulfed Alder Hey Hospital

:04:42.:04:45.

in Liverpool when it emerged that organs had been removed from

:04:45.:04:50.

children without consent. It led to the Human Tissue Act and the Human

:04:50.:04:58.

Tissue Authority. The Human Tissue Act is very clear that consent

:04:58.:05:03.

should be a positive act. That is simply -- to simply have an option

:05:04.:05:07.

of opting out and being deemed to have given consent is concerning. I

:05:07.:05:11.

understand why they are doing it but I think it is concerning.

:05:11.:05:15.

asked the Welsh government for details of discussions with UK

:05:15.:05:19.

ministers on this issue. It continuously refused to release

:05:19.:05:29.
:05:29.:05:30.

Dragon's Eye received documents that showed deep concerns on the

:05:30.:05:36.

part of Ministers in London about presumed consent operating only in

:05:36.:05:40.

Wales. They said they weren't convinced a separate system was

:05:40.:05:44.

feasible, desirable or necessary. think the problem of having two

:05:44.:05:49.

systems, the problem of having people who move between

:05:49.:05:52.

jurisdiction and the uncertainty of the clinicians and the surgeons,

:05:52.:05:55.

clearly says that there is an issue here that has to be addressed. It

:05:56.:06:00.

goes back to the starting point - what's the purpose of this is they

:06:00.:06:04.

are achieving increased organ donation through education and

:06:04.:06:07.

communication? The Welsh Government also told Ministers in London that

:06:07.:06:11.

the new register would be funded from the Welsh budget and it would

:06:11.:06:15.

be continuing to pay into the UK system too. Supporters say it is

:06:15.:06:21.

worth getting behind the presumed consent model. What we'll see is an

:06:21.:06:25.

increase in donors and transplants. I think the rest of the UK will be

:06:25.:06:30.

looking at us with envy and are likely to change their system. I

:06:30.:06:36.

think we'll be the leaders in the UK and around the world as well.

:06:36.:06:39.

When matters of life and death are involved it is no surprise they

:06:39.:06:46.

motions run high. As everyone aims for the ultimate goal of increasing

:06:46.:06:50.

the number of donors. As it's National Transplant Week,

:06:50.:06:52.

we asked the Health Minister, Lesley Griffiths, for an interview

:06:52.:06:56.

on the Government's plans for organ donation. She said no, but she did

:06:56.:06:59.

give us a statement. It says that the freedom of information request

:06:59.:07:02.

related to issues relevant to a previous attempt to bring in an

:07:02.:07:06.

opt-out system in the last Assembly. And that the Welsh Government is

:07:06.:07:08.

"maintaining dialogue" with the UK Government to address their

:07:08.:07:14.

concerns. It also denies that the Welsh Government will be funding

:07:14.:07:22.

two systems of organ donation. Joining me now is Professor John

:07:22.:07:24.

Saunders, chair of the Royal College of Physicians' Ethics

:07:24.:07:33.

Committee, and the chair of Kidney Wales Foundation, Roy Thomas. You

:07:33.:07:39.

are a keen supporter of the new proposals. What do you make of the

:07:39.:07:42.

argument that says we are getting where we want to be anyway.

:07:43.:07:45.

Donation rates are going up, the number of people signing the

:07:45.:07:49.

register is going up. It looks as if the Government is going to hit

:07:49.:07:54.

the target that it set itself by 2013. It is working, don't Tam we

:07:54.:07:57.

are with? First of all the Government in the UK won't reach

:07:57.:08:04.

its target in 2013. No, I'm talking about in a Wales. In Wales we will.

:08:04.:08:07.

We've been debating this for six or seven years. The people of Wales

:08:07.:08:10.

understand the issues. We understand we have a good

:08:10.:08:13.

transplant unit, a world-class transplant unit in Cardiff, and

:08:13.:08:16.

they understand the issues. They have through campaigns over the

:08:16.:08:20.

last three or four campaigns increased the Organ Donor Register.

:08:21.:08:25.

But that system is outdated. It hasn't achieved what it should

:08:25.:08:29.

achieve and we need a new system. Professor, do you agree with that,

:08:29.:08:33.

is the current system outdated? it is not. It doesn't work as well

:08:34.:08:37.

as it should, but the rising number of people on the Organ Donor

:08:37.:08:41.

Register is in Wales, that's terrific news. The percentage is

:08:41.:08:45.

going up. Wales has always been ahead of the rest of the UK in this

:08:45.:08:49.

respect. With respect to England, there is enormous variation in

:08:49.:08:53.

English regions. None of emare quite up to Wales but one or two

:08:53.:08:58.

are close to it. What are your concerns about an opt-out system?

:08:58.:09:02.

It is cheerful the impact of people's choices of how many people

:09:02.:09:07.

will opt out because they don't like the idea of organs being taken.

:09:07.:09:11.

I don't think there's a primary ethical objection. So are you

:09:11.:09:15.

concerned that perhaps the progressed that in Wales will be

:09:15.:09:21.

jeopardised by an opt-out system? That's the angzifplt There is no

:09:21.:09:27.

evidence of that. You talked in your clip about Spain. We've been

:09:27.:09:31.

highly successful. They have more intensive care beds. We hopeful

:09:31.:09:36.

will do that. It has increased donation in place like Belgium,

:09:36.:09:41.

where they introduced this in 1986. The fears of people on the opt-out

:09:41.:09:45.

register. They are there and I can understand that. John has a good

:09:45.:09:52.

point on that. I'm clear this Wales, the BBC poll in March showed a 62%

:09:52.:09:56.

support. We've only got 33% on the Organ Donor Register. It is

:09:56.:10:01.

fantastic to see more people on that. I do say it is outdated.

:10:01.:10:05.

about some of the concerns around safeguards and that sort of thing?

:10:06.:10:10.

I know the Royal College of surgeons has been expressing

:10:10.:10:13.

concerns, because legally it's the obligation of the surgeon

:10:13.:10:17.

performing the transplant to ensure that proper core sent has been

:10:17.:10:21.

given. What about mental capacity issues? You do have concerns about

:10:21.:10:25.

how that will be dealt with, in terms of people with learning

:10:25.:10:30.

disabilities, perhaps people with dementia, the mentally ill?

:10:30.:10:35.

sensitivities that we have in the NHS, and Alder Hey was mentioned.

:10:35.:10:40.

Alder Hey was historic. It was a very sad episode in NHS Stu, but

:10:40.:10:45.

the human tissue Act dealt with that. It should be consigned to the

:10:45.:10:50.

history books, now doctors are aware of consent. They do look at

:10:50.:10:56.

the immediate family for guidance. Naz your clip, the organ donor co-

:10:56.:11:01.

ordinators are experts all of this. What about that, that ultimately

:11:01.:11:05.

because the families will still be consulted and their weres will be

:11:05.:11:10.

taken into account you have the ultimate safeguard? I rather

:11:10.:11:14.

support Roy's views on this. It doesn't worry me, I think it has

:11:14.:11:19.

been taken care of. Roy is right to emphasise that some of these issues

:11:19.:11:22.

over consent belong to pleasant experiences in the past. Gentlemen,

:11:22.:11:25.

thank you. Unless you've been away all week,

:11:25.:11:28.

you'll know there's been a blazing row over changes to the health

:11:28.:11:31.

service. More specifically, a report into the changes. Or more

:11:31.:11:33.

specifically still, e-mails between the author of the report and senior

:11:33.:11:37.

Government officials. In all the political mudslinging, it's easy

:11:37.:11:41.

enough to forget the real issue - the far-reaching changes to the NHS

:11:41.:11:45.

in Wales. We know it's difficult, we're told it's necessary, but is

:11:45.:11:55.
:11:55.:11:57.

it achievable? Arwyn Jones reports. Since taking the job just over a

:11:57.:12:01.

year ago the Health Minister has said on several occasions she will

:12:01.:12:06.

have to face some flak over influence restructure hospitals in

:12:06.:12:10.

Wales. This week she saw exactly what that flak can look like.

:12:10.:12:15.

do accept that you do not have a grip on your department? We can

:12:15.:12:19.

have no trust in the Welsh Government now. The people of Wales,

:12:20.:12:24.

Llanelli and Mid and West Wales will feel they've been sold a pig

:12:24.:12:31.

in a poke. Let's see what led to such a tumultuous week in Wales

:12:31.:12:37.

politics. The report was to articulate the reasons why health

:12:37.:12:42.

boards need to change services. And to help health boards in engaging

:12:42.:12:45.

with their communities about the future of hospital services in

:12:45.:12:50.

Wales. The report published in the spring said mortality rates for

:12:50.:12:55.

general surgery, trauma and oorth pedics, general medicine and stroke

:12:55.:12:59.

services are higher in Wales than in England. It said there is

:12:59.:13:02.

evidence that centralising emergency surgery brings mortality

:13:02.:13:07.

rates up to the English average, and mortality for heart attacks,

:13:07.:13:10.

stroke and major trauma are improved when services are

:13:10.:13:15.

centralised. It also said that outcomes improved significantly if

:13:15.:13:19.

patients receive the right care and treatments within the first golden

:13:19.:13:23.

hour of falling ill or getting injured. So what's caused this

:13:23.:13:27.

debate? Well this, week BBC Wales highlighted e-mail correspondence

:13:28.:13:32.

between the author of the report, Professor Marcus Longley, and

:13:32.:13:36.

senior Welsh Government officials. In one e-mail exchange, Professor

:13:36.:13:40.

Longley asks the medical director of the NHS in Wales, Dr Chris Jones,

:13:40.:13:44.

for more killer facts. And expresses concerns that the

:13:44.:13:48.

evidence as presented does not seem to be as incisive as we might have

:13:48.:13:53.

hoped. Who, asked the opposition, is we? In another, he asks for more

:13:53.:13:57.

evidence to Sian up the document and its impact in supporting the

:13:58.:14:02.

case for change Return Dr Jones advises the Professor That the

:14:02.:14:06.

document needs to be more positive if possible, and set out a more

:14:06.:14:10.

persuasive vision of how things could be better. So a showdown was

:14:11.:14:14.

set for First Minister's Questions on Tuesday, with accusations and

:14:14.:14:18.

counter accusations. First out, the First Minister. It is cowardice to

:14:18.:14:25.

attack the reputation of an academic, to try to suggest he is

:14:25.:14:30.

independent, to ruin his reputation in the academic world, without

:14:30.:14:36.

there being any comeback The correspondence, the Government says,

:14:36.:14:40.

was no more than sharing information.. There has been

:14:40.:14:43.

nothing in this process which has lacked in transparency. I have

:14:43.:14:47.

neither lived nor connived with anyone. But that wasn't enough to

:14:47.:14:51.

silence the opposition, who decided to come out in force. Will you

:14:51.:14:54.

apologise for mislead this Assembly and the people of Wales about the

:14:54.:14:58.

fact that it was not an independent report in if you didn't know, you

:14:58.:15:03.

do accept thaw do not have a grip on your department? And that it is

:15:03.:15:06.

time for you to resign? This is another case of the Labour Party

:15:06.:15:10.

sex up a document to try to prove their case. People across Wales are

:15:10.:15:14.

really frightened about the future of their local hospitals. They can

:15:14.:15:22.

have no trust in the Welsh Next week, she will go before the

:15:22.:15:25.

health committee on the eve of a vote of no confidence in her. It is

:15:25.:15:28.

clearly an issue which will dominate the political landscape in

:15:28.:15:33.

Wales for the foreseeable future. If we can leave aside the political

:15:33.:15:36.

cut-and-thrust, at its heart this debate is about the future of the

:15:37.:15:41.

NHS, the next direction for our hospitals and so on. Professor

:15:41.:15:46.

Marcus Longley's report was supposed to feed into that. The

:15:46.:15:50.

health minister has said that the status quo, no change, is no longer

:15:50.:15:55.

an option. But changing away from the status quo, not just for this

:15:55.:15:59.

government, but for others, too, has proven more easily said than

:15:59.:16:03.

done. Because this is what you get when you talk about restructuring

:16:03.:16:08.

health services. Locals out in force to oppose plans. This man

:16:08.:16:12.

used to be a top official at the UK Government's Department of Health,

:16:12.:16:18.

and he says it is clear why the NHS has trouble convincing locals.

:16:18.:16:22.

the same locality, the NHS bureaucracy offer the same

:16:22.:16:26.

unpopular choice, get rebuffed and come back five years later with it

:16:26.:16:30.

again, get rebuffed and come back five years later again. The people

:16:30.:16:33.

pushing it might have only just got the job, might be newly elected,

:16:33.:16:38.

but the people rejecting it have seen it four times. They did not

:16:38.:16:42.

like at the last three times and do not like it this time. But it is

:16:42.:16:49.

not just from the public. It tends to fracture because the retail

:16:49.:16:53.

constituency members understand they cannot travel with this. So

:16:53.:16:57.

although it is the official party line, the locals understand this is

:16:57.:17:01.

not a pathway to re-election, so they peel off. So you get cross-

:17:01.:17:06.

party tension and Intra party tension. So the consensus breaks

:17:06.:17:11.

down. That might not be the only problem. Today, the Auditor-General

:17:11.:17:14.

for Wales said although current health services are not affordable,

:17:14.:17:19.

it might not have enough funds to pay for major reforms either.

:17:19.:17:23.

are waiting for the Government proposals as to how they are going

:17:23.:17:29.

to react to the ideas the boards are going to bring forward over the

:17:29.:17:33.

next year, in terms of changing the pattern of services. Those have to

:17:33.:17:38.

stay within the budgets available in Wales. That is the challenge.

:17:38.:17:42.

Because if you move from current provision to future provision, you

:17:42.:17:48.

need to spend money. And as I said, money is very tight. What exactly

:17:48.:17:51.

the new plans are will be revealed over the next few weeks and months.

:17:51.:17:58.

One thing is for sure - in politics, health always gets the pulse racing.

:17:58.:18:03.

Let's discuss some of that. With me, the chair of the Assembly's health

:18:03.:18:06.

committee, Mark Drakeford, Plaid Cymru's health spokesperson Elin

:18:06.:18:10.

Jones, and the former Conservative AM of Jonathan Morgan, also a

:18:11.:18:15.

former chair of the health committee. Well come. Do any of you

:18:15.:18:19.

think that the status quo is the way forward for the Welsh Health

:18:19.:18:26.

Service? Well, the health service is continually evolving. It changes

:18:26.:18:30.

all the time. I have been the Assembly Member for Ceredigion for

:18:30.:18:34.

13 years. It has changed during my time and will continue to change,

:18:34.:18:38.

especially with new technology that offers new opportunities of

:18:38.:18:43.

delivering a service. But they are fundamental services in a district

:18:43.:18:47.

general hospital that need to be there to save lives and provide the

:18:47.:18:52.

ability of babies to be born in that community, and for services to

:18:52.:18:57.

care for the elderly. So is it your position that services at district

:18:57.:19:01.

general hospitals should never be up for discussion, that what is

:19:01.:19:05.

there must remain for ever and a day? That is not what I said. I

:19:05.:19:09.

accept that change will happen, technology will change and afford

:19:09.:19:13.

new opportunities, but there are basic services that a community

:19:13.:19:20.

will require within a distance, within a timely intervention...

:19:20.:19:24.

you consider those untouchable? From my perspective, in

:19:24.:19:28.

representing Ceredigion and the hospital we saw in some of those

:19:28.:19:34.

pictures, that access to emergency surgery that can save lives, access

:19:34.:19:39.

to emergency Caesarean that can deliver babies safely and save the

:19:39.:19:45.

lives of mothers, those are pretty fundamental. If those are removed

:19:45.:19:48.

from a community where there is then no ability to have those

:19:48.:19:55.

services within reach of life saving opportunities, that is not

:19:55.:19:59.

acceptable to those communities and no politician could sell that.

:19:59.:20:04.

are pulling a face. We have to be realistic about where we are in

:20:04.:20:09.

delivering health services in Wales. Since devolution in 1999, we have

:20:09.:20:13.

been told by independent experts, clinicians, by people working in

:20:14.:20:17.

the Wales Audit Office and others, not just by politicians or

:20:17.:20:20.

Government ministers, that the NHS and the way we deliver services,

:20:20.:20:25.

how we deliver them, the localities, what services we deliver, has to

:20:25.:20:30.

change. Because if you keep thinking that the NHS of the 1950s

:20:30.:20:34.

is something you can deliver today, we are kidding ourselves. The

:20:34.:20:38.

health service has become much more expensive to deliver. There are

:20:38.:20:41.

examples throughout the world where services are delivered more closely

:20:41.:20:44.

to people and become far more effective and efficient. We know

:20:44.:20:49.

that closer collaboration between health and social services is

:20:49.:20:53.

needed to make sure we spend money more wisely. I think some of the

:20:53.:20:56.

health service provision we have had in Wales, although that has

:20:56.:20:59.

been very good, there have been poor examples. Some community

:20:59.:21:03.

hospitals, frankly, should have closed years ago. We spent months,

:21:04.:21:08.

if not years, talking about when neurosurgery ought to be located in

:21:08.:21:12.

South Wales. The problem in Wales is that very often we are good at

:21:12.:21:16.

analysing the problem, at sick -- accepting that what we have will

:21:16.:21:20.

not work, and taking forever and a day to provide a solution. We are

:21:20.:21:23.

now hitting the buffers because we are running out of money and the

:21:23.:21:27.

local health boards, which have tried to do a very difficult job in

:21:27.:21:30.

difficult circumstances, are now facing the biggest challenge of

:21:30.:21:35.

their lives. Mark Drakeford, how do you go about trying to build

:21:35.:21:37.

political consensus for what is obviously very difficult change,

:21:37.:21:41.

given that everyone seems to have a different concept of what change

:21:41.:21:47.

means for the NHS? Change is very difficult in the NHS. Not just in

:21:47.:21:52.

Wales, but anywhere that change is trying to be brought about. Let me

:21:52.:21:56.

give three reasons for optimism about what can be achieved. First,

:21:56.:22:01.

inside the Assembly Chamber, not universally, but I think across a

:22:01.:22:03.

considerable majority of members, there is a shared understanding of

:22:04.:22:07.

what the problem is. You have heard some of it already this evening.

:22:07.:22:11.

Lots of what they have said, I would agree with in understanding

:22:11.:22:16.

what the problem is. That is a good starting-point. Second, we have

:22:16.:22:19.

managed to bring about change in places. We have actually succeeded

:22:19.:22:27.

in it. I was recently in a fantastic new hospital. Three old

:22:27.:22:30.

community hospitals had to be closed to make that happen and it

:22:30.:22:33.

was done with the agreement of the local population. We can make this

:22:33.:22:37.

happen. Third, and maybe slightly strangely, that again in the way

:22:37.:22:40.

that Jonathan Stead, the pressures from funding are such that the

:22:40.:22:44.

choice about change is no longer, shall we think about it, when will

:22:44.:22:50.

we do it? It is an urgent thing on our doorstep. Is that what makes

:22:50.:22:53.

people suspicious when it comes to establishing the agreement of the

:22:53.:22:57.

local population? People think, this is actually about saving money,

:22:57.:23:02.

not giving me better services. And as Elin Jones was saying, even if

:23:02.:23:05.

they had to travel that little bit further when they are about to give

:23:05.:23:09.

birth to their baby, or an emergency, that could compromise

:23:09.:23:14.

their chances of a successful outcome. They are a couple of

:23:14.:23:17.

issues. People become suspicious when politicians and health boards

:23:17.:23:22.

talk about changing local services. Automatically, they think they will

:23:22.:23:25.

end up with something worse than what they have. The problem with

:23:25.:23:32.

where we Arnaud, and I know it is being retrospective, but we had

:23:32.:23:36.

year on year significant increases in health expenditure between 1999

:23:36.:23:41.

and 2005-2006. At no point in that period was there an attempt to

:23:41.:23:46.

radically reform the delivery of health services. The Government

:23:46.:23:49.

spent time restructuring health boards and Trusts. It was

:23:49.:23:53.

bureaucratic. It was not about service delivery, but about

:23:53.:23:57.

shifting the chairs in the local health board structures. That is a

:23:57.:24:02.

challenge. A we have to do much to take the public with us. Local

:24:02.:24:07.

health boards should consult with the public. If push has come to

:24:07.:24:10.

shove, and you have expressed there are grounds for optimism, do you

:24:10.:24:14.

believe that in the course of this Assembly political consensus can be

:24:14.:24:17.

established, voters can be brought along with the proposals the

:24:18.:24:22.

Government is about to make? certainly think that in the process

:24:22.:24:26.

of change you have to think of the patients as assets. The reason we

:24:26.:24:29.

sometimes have difficulties is because people feel passionately

:24:29.:24:33.

about the NHS and their services. If you regard people as the enemy,

:24:33.:24:37.

you will never bring about change. You have to harness enthusiasm for

:24:37.:24:43.

the NHS and turn it into an asset. Thank you for joining us.

:24:43.:24:46.

Cardiff council employees are planning to use the Olympics in

:24:46.:24:49.

Cardiff as a platform to protest against plans to appoint a team of

:24:49.:24:53.

senior managers. With the eyes of the world on the capital city as

:24:53.:24:56.

the Games kick-off, the GMB union says it will target Olympic

:24:56.:25:03.

football events which are being played at the Millennium Stadium.

:25:03.:25:06.

The Rings are up, we have seen the Olympic torch in the capital, and

:25:06.:25:10.

in less than two weeks, thousands will be in the Millennium Stadium

:25:10.:25:13.

to watch Great Britain take on New Zealand in the women's football.

:25:13.:25:17.

And as the eyes of the world focus on Cardiff, they could see some in

:25:17.:25:21.

the crowd wearing T-shirts protesting against plans for the

:25:21.:25:28.

council to employee up to 24 senior managers on salaries of up to

:25:28.:25:32.

�120,000. The plans have been drawn up by the council has no chief

:25:32.:25:37.

executive, and the proposal is to appoint a team of senior managers

:25:37.:25:41.

to support the council's cabinet. The aim is to put the Cabinet at

:25:41.:25:47.

the heart of decision-making. The plans will cost �1.7 million a year

:25:47.:25:53.

in wages. And that is spending that the trade unions' call obscene.

:25:53.:25:57.

have �55 million to save them the next three years. We understand

:25:57.:26:03.

that we are in economic meltdown. This is obscene and immoral.

:26:03.:26:06.

Earlier this month, Cardiff Council announce that lowest paid workers

:26:06.:26:12.

will receive a wage increase of around 1500 pounds per year if, as

:26:12.:26:15.

the authority claims to be the first in Wales to introduce a

:26:15.:26:19.

living wage. On the same day, staff at the council were informed of

:26:19.:26:22.

plans to change the management structure. One former Cabinet

:26:22.:26:26.

member is sceptical of the reasoning for the appointments.

:26:26.:26:32.

as they say in the paper there goes the full Cabinet, if they want to

:26:32.:26:41.

make a truly member-led administration, they are talking

:26:41.:26:45.

about not responding birdie at a supplementary meeting two questions.

:26:45.:26:49.

Why would a Cabinet member be afraid to answer my supplementary

:26:49.:26:53.

question verbally if they had the ability? Unions say many staff had

:26:53.:26:59.

seen wages reduced by up to �8,000 following job evaluation. They are

:26:59.:27:02.

actively discussing ways to vent their opposition to the proposals.

:27:02.:27:07.

At the end of the day, some of our members have said that they have

:27:07.:27:11.

already bought tickets for the Olympic venues. And they may well

:27:11.:27:15.

be wearing T-shirts to say how ludicrous it what is currently

:27:15.:27:19.

being proposed by this establishment. The council says

:27:19.:27:23.

that they are investing now in order to save money on consultant

:27:23.:27:27.

fees in future. Cabinet members are meeting this evening and are

:27:27.:27:31.

expected to rubber-stamp the senior management model and approve a 30

:27:31.:27:35.

day consultation process. In the meantime, council employees in

:27:35.:27:39.

unison and the GMB unions could be making an Olympian effort to oppose

:27:39.:27:44.

the plans. Betsan Powys is here. Let's return

:27:44.:27:48.

to the health row. It has been a difficult week for the health

:27:48.:27:51.

minister and she faces another difficult week. Yes, super

:27:51.:27:55.

Wednesday. In the morning, the Health Committee, where she will

:27:55.:27:59.

appear with Marcus Longley and Dr Chris Jones. That is where the

:27:59.:28:03.

opposition want answers. If they do not get them, they will be a motion

:28:03.:28:08.

of no confidence in the afternoon. She was regarded as one of the

:28:08.:28:12.

weakest links in the Cabinet. After all this, if she survives, she is

:28:12.:28:16.

bound to be the safest number of the Cabinet. How could Carwyn Jones

:28:16.:28:21.

get rid of her? We have come to the end of the road on Dragon's Eye I.

:28:21.:28:26.

At this point, it has been customary to do this. Vicky for

:28:26.:28:33.

watching, have a good summer, good night. Take care and good night.

:28:33.:28:39.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS