London Election 2017: Where You Live


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home with my parents. Not enough funding for the NHS.

:00:29.:00:52.

Here we are with a panel of leading London politicians and an

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enthusiastic audience, champing at the bit. Let's go to our first

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question, from Qasim Majid. Unfortunately, over the last few

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weeks and months, we have seen some disgusting attacks, in London and in

:01:09.:01:13.

Manchester, which is where I am originally from. This has left me

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and I'm sure many other individuals in the audience very scared about

:01:17.:01:19.

the prospect of further attacks. Therefore I would like to ask today

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what policies the parties will be introducing to prevent such attacks

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both in London and across the UK. Diane Abbott, we will start with you

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- what do you do? I think, as you said, the most important thing is to

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keep people safe. And one of the policies that in our manifesto is to

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recruit 10,000 more police officers. And we're doing that because

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actually, under Theresa May's watch, we have lost 20,000 police officers.

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Although you might say, what have police officers got to do with

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fighting terrorism, I think community policing can help in

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getting that information. How many of those 10,000 are for London? I'm

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not sure, that will be a matter... The amount people have in their

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police area will be a matter for the chief constable and for the PCC.

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Would London get half of them, say debutants a matter for the chief

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constables. I just want to go forward and talk about the

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Government's anti-terrorism strategies, and I wants to talk

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about Prevent. Can we stick on police numbers just for now, before

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we go back to Prevent? We are very clear that we're going to protect

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the police budget and actually, numbers in London have not gone

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down. We are putting more people into MI5, MI6, GCHQ. They have gone

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down since 2010? No. Jane Corbyn has voted against every single piece of

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anti-terror legislation, under this government and previous governance.

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Diane herself has previously suggested that we should abolish

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MI5. It gives us a very clear choice between Theresa May and Jeremy

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Corbyn. Go on, Diane. I'm not sure whether Gavin was in the department

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at the time, but much of that legislation which Jeremy and I voted

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against was also voted against by the Conservative Party. Theresa May

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voted against the 2005 adventure of Terrorism Act, she voted against ID

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cards and she voted against control orders without proper court

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supervision. The point is this - it is easy to list legislation which

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people voted on, but that legislation which myself and a lot

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of the Tory party voted against we felt was counter-productive,

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learning the lessons from Northern Ireland. We voted for... There was

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an attempt to have 90 day detention, 42 days without detention, we voted

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against that. But we voted for 28 days. Let's go back to the question

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from Qasim Majid - how do we stop what happened in Manchester

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happening again? You need very strong security services, they have

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been effective in the past, large numbers of potential attacks have

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been foiled and we need to give them our full support. It is worth

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remembering that the former head of MI6 and the head of MI5 warned

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before these outrages the risk if we left Europe of the break up of

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sharing intelligence with other European countries, because this is

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not just a British problem. So we have to have that degree of

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compression. You know full well that that kind of intelligence is always

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shared as a matter of course anyway, it is nothing to do with Brexit,

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adding rank sum into this is disgraceful. I brought it in because

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the two retiring heads, who were there when I was a member of the

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Cabinet, went out their way to make this warning, and we should be

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listening. This is outrageous. The question was, how can we stop people

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feeling scared? When you see what happened in do, and what happened in

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Westminster, all of us travelling on the tube every day, it is really

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hard not to feel scared. We need to reassure people that everything is

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being done. What I think is that the police need more resources, but it

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is really important where those resources go. Police have been

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warning about cutbacks, they say specifically that the best

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intelligence comes from communities, not from things like blanket

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surveillance, but from police firmly rooted in communities who can be

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called upon. And the Prevent strategy doesn't currently do that.

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Qasim Majid, you asked the question, do you find any of this convincing?

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I would just like to talk about police numbers. I am no expert on

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this, but the two commissioners came out in the wake of the Manchester

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attack and said that this was not due to a lack of resources. So I

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think it is incorrect to make a political message over the misery of

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our people. 2000 police officers in London -- 22,000, down from 33,020

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ten? We have had cutbacks, we used to have three officers and three PCO

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is in every council ward. Recently the mayor has doubled it, but we

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only had one. I am in local counsellor and I know the lack of

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contact which we had. The person was changing every six months. Police

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numbers in London have held up and up to 2020, the spending review

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protects police funding. Labour's position, Andy Burnham was arguing

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for a 10% reduction. So, it is very important that we retain police

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resources. You need more than that. We have budgeted for 20,000

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policemen. You might like to write these figures down, Diane, that will

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cost about 1.3 billion. It is not about that, we are talking about

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23,000 jihadists in Britain who have been under surveillance now or in

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the past. People are amazed that, for example, the attacker in

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Manchester can go out of the country and then come back in and have an

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attack. There is obviously a lack of will. We have got to have a proper

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Border Force, with 4000 more people. I don't know about 23,000, but there

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has been talk of 500 active investigations, 6000 people who

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should be on the list. What do you think about how to deal with those

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people? I want to know when we're going to stop selling arms to Saudi

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Arabia. And exporting... All around the

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world. I think that is our biggest issue. President Trump is curtsying

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to the Saudis and we are America's biggest allies, they're laughing at

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us. This gentleman here. What do you think should be done? Remember, we

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are talking about measures to stop terrorism which go beyond police

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numbers? Going beyond police numbers, this, was a Libyan. I am

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Libyan heritage as well, and I can tell you there are real problems to

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do with foreign policy. 2011, when there was a bombing campaign to get

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rid of Gaddafi, it was great in one sense, Gaddafi was removed. But it

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left a chaotic country, and thereafter, we had basically Isis

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growing up, jihadi groups, the country was left in tatters. And

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that was due to the Conservative Party. Does your party accept that

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some of the things that were done, the bobbing campaign in Libya, for

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example, might be to blame, in the background? I think these foreign

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policy questions those real difficulties, because we intervened

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because Gaddafi was about to murder thousands of innocent civilians. We

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see what the Assad regime is doing in Syria, and we stood by and

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allowed it to happen. There is a real challenge about what we do to

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reconstruct afterwards, and I would accept the point made by the

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gentleman. Jeremy Corbyn was making this point the other day... What he

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did not acknowledge, Afghanistan, if we had not intervened me is, we

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would have allowed a terrorist organisation free space. The way you

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don't make people safer is by Stinnett icing entire communities.

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That is not... -- stigmatising entire communities. On the question

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of some of our international interventions, like Iraq,

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Afghanistan, Libya and the terror we see on our streets, of course, the

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people responsible for the terrorism are murderers, violent jihadists.

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But there is no question that the war in Iraq, the intervention in

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Libya, left that region a more unstable place, and literally left

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failed states in which jihadis could organise. I'm not saying this, Eliza

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Manning, former head of MI5, said it. I did not vote for it, as you

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may know. The fact is, can you tell me, in Sweden, there was a terrible

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attack recently - what was it about Swedish foreign policy that brought

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that attacked on them? Vince Cable? There is a massive difference

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between looking for explanations and foreign policy might be part of

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that, and avoiding excuses and justification. And there is

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absolutely no justification or excuse for resorting to terrorism,

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whatever the underlying cause. That distinction must be made clear. So,

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you don't think about the wars in the background, it is just a

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policing matter? I voted against the Iraq war, and one reason I did so

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was that we were warned that it would stir up instability and to

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promote terrorism. People like Boris Johnson acknowledged that publicly.

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To what extent do you say, it was not just that person, it was

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something else going on behind them? There's no question that the flames,

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we need to be investigating and condemning the people who do the

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crimes, but the region is a mess and we have to take our responsibility

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for the mess we caused. Like Jeremy Corbyn, like Vince Cable, stop the

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war marches, it's something we put in leaflets in 2003, if you do this,

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you create instability in the region and room for jihadists, which has

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happened. When you talk about this, it is excusing them in a way, even

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though it is done nicely. These jihadists people in Isis, they threw

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guys like me, gay guys, office buildings. What has got to do with

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foreign policy way they treat women? Nothing. I want to move onto another

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subject. We will move on the way they treat women? Nothing. I want to

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move onto another subject. We will move onto housing if we can. I know

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what we've just been discussing. Charlie Crossfield? I am currently

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spending a large amount of my income on rent. I would review like to

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purchase a property in London and am saving for a deposit that buying

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always seemed out of reach. What would your government do to help

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people like me? What are you? A management consultant, 25. And you

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can't yourself ever buying a house? Eventually, yes. But I think the

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prices in London are so high at the moment it's hard to consider. We

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have the Minister of Housing here. He might never buy a house. I wake

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up every day thinking about what I can do to help people like you.

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LAUGHTER Why does that get a laugh? I don't

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know. This problem has been 30 or 40 years in the making. Governments of

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both colours haven't built enough homes, which is fundamentally made

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Housing less affordable. There is a long-term solution, to build the

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homes we desperately need, of all kinds. Our manifesto has a higher

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house-building target than the Labour Party. You've been in power

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for quite awhile and Boris Johnson was the Mayor of London. It's

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important to be honest. We inherited a house-building level of 130,000 a

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year and we have built up to 190,000. We have made progress, but

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I accept we need to do better. In London? They are up but they need to

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be higher. The long-term solution is build the homes we desperately need.

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In the short-term, we need to help people right now. Banning letting

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agents from charging upfront fees from tenants to help people like you

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in the rental sector. Shared ownership, schemes like that, the

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help to buy scheme in London that can help people get on the ladder.

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It is a huge task that we have to make up for this failure over or 40

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years. The Prime Minister is personally committed to ensuring

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people like you that are working hard, doing the right thing, should

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have the chance to own your home. I'm trying to read Charlie's

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expression. I don't know if you feel it will happen or not. I think

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banning things like letting these are important but it is a plaster...

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I see a lot of expensive homes being built but not affordable homes being

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built. Vince Cable, you know London well. One needs to happen to allow a

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20-something to buy a house? You need a massive increase in supply,

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that's a fundamental problem. In the past I think we have relied too

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heavily on the private sector to do this alone and they will only build

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if rents and house prices are going up. So you do need the public sector

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to be more engaged. We need councils to be building houses again for rent

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and sale, and to do that they need to have more freedom, we're in a

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ridiculous situation at the moment where councils can borrow money to

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invest in commercial property speculation in other parts of the

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country but not allowed to borrow to build houses. Completely insane. If

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you were in power, with great respect... That was your chance to

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do it. Indeed come and we should have done a great deal more, I

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accept that. There were other things happening, particularly in the

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rental sector. There were large amounts of development is going up

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along the river in London. They are unoccupied and will remain

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unoccupied, it's just investment property, not for the likes of you.

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We have to have some kind of control on that, by having penal council tax

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on properties that are not used and equally stopping letting agents from

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advertising overseas before they can advertise in the UK. Diane Abbott,

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how is it that we have a situation where a flat is built and someone in

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Singapore buys it, they have no intention of living in it at all,

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it's simply an investment, they are not even going to let it out. How

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does that happen? Well, it's because of deregulation in my view. Just to

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say, you've raised a very important point. You have to have a salary of

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59,000 to afford to rent anything in zones one and two. It's not just a

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problem for you but for employers. NHS London has the highest turnover

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of anywhere in the country because nurses, doctors, professional people

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on reasonable salaries cannot afford to live in London. What do you do?

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Three things. We do have to look at this question of people buying from

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overseas, buying off plan and leaving it empty. I live in Dalston.

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Once upon a time Dalston was a very regular place. I've got tower blocks

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now and that my time there are no lights on, because they've all been

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bought overseas. How do you stop that? Everyone says it's a problem.

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There's one in Vauxhall, the lights are out or through the winter. How

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do you stop it? As Vince says, we need to work in London with American

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London and look at what can be done. He is Labour. That's why we will

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work with him, vertically when we win on the 8th of June! CHEERING AND

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APPLAUSE But also we want to look at the

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levels of rent, because the levels of rent are astronomic and we're

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looking at some kind of rent control. The other thing is to build

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more houses. When the Tories talk about building houses they talk

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about affordable houses, I tell you a penny to pound those houses are

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not affordable to most of the people in this audience. APPLAUSE

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OK, I'm still, let's just focus on this. No one has yet to feature of

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the foreign investor who will not live here. Diane, tell us how you do

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it, how you stop Russian buying a flat in London and he's not going to

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live in it? First of all do have to work with developers to stop them.

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Some developers advertise these places overseas and have sold them

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all off plan. They need to offer them to people in London first. Sian

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Berry, what do you think? This idea of selling off plan to foreign

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investors, that's part of the economic somehow big developers work

:18:46.:18:48.

now at the moment. All developments in London are doing it. I tell you

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what, far too many developments that used to be council estates are doing

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this as well. Councils in London have knocked down 8000 council homes

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in recent years and not rebuilt them. We need to be doing more to

:18:59.:19:02.

relax the borrowing rules on councils and put more grants in

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place, so councils and housing associations have a different

:19:06.:19:09.

economic model, not putting lots and lots of private flats and all of

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their development but can focus on social rented flat and living dead.

:19:15.:19:20.

Free up space by living on the green belt, why not do it? There is plenty

:19:21.:19:23.

of space in central London at the moment. Lots of Brownfield land and

:19:24.:19:29.

in field land. Brownfield land has hospital. , took about went for a

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second? Actually, for the homes we would he have, if we built hundreds

:19:34.:19:37.

of thousands of new homes that people could afford, that would

:19:38.:19:40.

barely dent... There were plenty of space in central London at the

:19:41.:19:43.

moment. Lots of Brownfield land and infield land. Brownfield land has

:19:44.:19:45.

hospital. , took about went for a second? Actually, for the homes we

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would he have, if we built hundreds of thousands of new homes that

:19:49.:19:50.

people could afford, that would barely dent... Veretout .3 million

:19:51.:19:52.

private renters, I am one in London and until recently I struggle to pay

:19:53.:19:55.

my rent as well. The only thing that will help the existing people in

:19:56.:19:58.

London to pay their rent and save up for a deposit is that power to do

:19:59.:20:01.

rent controls. The Mayor of London needs that power. I'm not sure Sadiq

:20:02.:20:04.

Khan has tried hard to get it but it is absolutely vital. Levy go back to

:20:05.:20:07.

the audience. In the front row, you have been waiting patiently. Despite

:20:08.:20:09.

everything said by the five of you I don't believe I could buy a house in

:20:10.:20:13.

London and I don't think this could happen now, in the next five years

:20:14.:20:18.

or next ten years. How old are you? 23. And working hours? Customer

:20:19.:20:24.

advisor, I graduated last year and have all that debt as well. Taking

:20:25.:20:28.

the average 23-year-old customer adviser, who thinks that person, you

:20:29.:20:32.

will someone like you, will never be able to buy a house in London? Don't

:20:33.:20:40.

look round! It's not everybody. Some people think that you will. Anyone

:20:41.:20:45.

want to say why... At the back? The gentleman with a beard. Using yes or

:20:46.:20:51.

no? No, she won't be able to. OK, this gentleman in the far corner?

:20:52.:20:58.

You do? I think, obviously as politicians... We've listened to

:20:59.:21:03.

this debate. As a politician, what are you going to do to make sure

:21:04.:21:07.

young individuals are going to afford properties? You can sit there

:21:08.:21:10.

and talked and talked and talked, Labour has done the same thing,

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Liberal Democrats said the same thing as well. We have high rents

:21:15.:21:17.

and mortgages, what are you going to do about the properties? I just want

:21:18.:21:21.

to take a more comment on the audience before you answer. You have

:21:22.:21:25.

had your hand up most of the programme. This gentleman with the

:21:26.:21:29.

tie. Always impressed with a tie. Would you like to say? Just for

:21:30.:21:36.

information, your mayor, Boris Johnson, when he was in power,

:21:37.:21:41.

London's houses and terms of affordability, what do you know the

:21:42.:21:46.

percentage of houses being made that were affordable? 13%. It is

:21:47.:21:51.

completely a gimmick to hear Tories to say that. The affordable housing

:21:52.:21:58.

is an affordable, that's the charge. This term affordable housing is used

:21:59.:22:01.

to mean different things. It's used by housing professionals to mean

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housing professionals. If we're talking about that we have given

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Sadiq Khan ?3.5 billion, the largest amount of money Londoners about a

:22:14.:22:15.

bad for that kind of housing. But Charlie's question was a different

:22:16.:22:21.

one. How do we make housing in general for private rent for people

:22:22.:22:25.

to buy more affordable? The only answer to that, ultimately, is to

:22:26.:22:28.

build enough homes so that supply keeps up with armed. That is why,

:22:29.:22:34.

that is the crucial question. If you compare our manifesto, go away

:22:35.:22:37.

tonight and have a look, with Labour's manifesto, we offer a

:22:38.:22:40.

higher level of house-building and Jeremy Corbyn. Can you pick between

:22:41.:22:44.

these answers, Charlie, or is it very bleak? I find it quite

:22:45.:22:49.

difficult. Speaking on behalf of a few of my friends, having seen house

:22:50.:22:55.

prices rise so much above earnings growth rates, my friends are

:22:56.:23:01.

concerned about buying now for fear of aggression going into negative

:23:02.:23:05.

equity. Even though it can afford it are scared to go into the situation

:23:06.:23:08.

because of that. Thank you, Charlie. That's a good starter on housing. We

:23:09.:23:13.

may never get to the end of housing. We are going to talk about Brexit

:23:14.:23:19.

now. Troy Kennedy, your question on Brexit? 60% of Londoners voted to

:23:20.:23:22.

remain in the European Union, including myself. Many of us feel

:23:23.:23:26.

forgotten about. What would your party do to ensure that London's

:23:27.:23:31.

interests are being considered in the upcoming Brexit negotiations? So

:23:32.:23:38.

Britain is Brexit, London is Remain. Vince Cable, what needs to happen? I

:23:39.:23:42.

think we need to start by saying the hard extreme Ukip style of Brexit,

:23:43.:23:46.

which the government is committed to, taking us out of the single

:23:47.:23:50.

market, the customs union, is potentially enormously damaging and

:23:51.:23:54.

we must try to stop that. It's particularly damaging for London for

:23:55.:23:59.

a whole host of reasons. The financial services industry, which

:24:00.:24:01.

is fundamentally, provides the tax base of the city, is going to

:24:02.:24:05.

migrate out because they don't have single market passport rights. We

:24:06.:24:09.

have these wonderful universities and research centres that are going

:24:10.:24:12.

to lose their European money. We will lose access to the European

:24:13.:24:17.

investment bank, which funds all be public transport infrastructure. We

:24:18.:24:20.

have a quarter of all the top 250 companies in the world headquarters

:24:21.:24:26.

here, specifically because they see Britain as a gateway to Europe. And

:24:27.:24:32.

if we have a serious disruption of our trade, particularly the breaking

:24:33.:24:35.

up of the customs union, a lot of those companies are going to go. So

:24:36.:24:39.

the impact on London is massive. Isn't that the argument you lost

:24:40.:24:45.

last year? No, we haven't lost the argument. The referendum has

:24:46.:24:47.

happened, the vote is taken place. It's gone. There are different ways

:24:48.:24:53.

of leaving the EU, there is the extreme and hard way this government

:24:54.:24:57.

has chosen, we didn't have to leave the single market or the customs

:24:58.:25:01.

union, we don't have to break up all the collaborative relationships

:25:02.:25:04.

around research, which is what will happen if we have a bad deal or we

:25:05.:25:09.

have no deal, which Theresa May has committed to. We must try to avoid

:25:10.:25:15.

that. Peter Whittle, you want to be out tomorrow, basically? This thing

:25:16.:25:18.

about had Brexit and soft Brexit, now extreme Brexit and Ukip

:25:19.:25:26.

Brexit... There is just Brexit. When people voted last year, they knew

:25:27.:25:28.

what they were voting for. The assumption behind all of my

:25:29.:25:30.

colleagues here, all voted to Remain, I'm the only one that voted

:25:31.:25:34.

for Brexit, is basically people were too stupid when they were given the

:25:35.:25:37.

choice. The fact is I don't think people are stupid, they were told

:25:38.:25:40.

very clearly, it means leaving the single market. It means an end to

:25:41.:25:45.

free movement. That is the reason people mostly voted for it in the

:25:46.:25:50.

country. I'd met in London it was 60%, but 40% of Londoners voted to

:25:51.:25:55.

leave. All Vince is doing, because I project via 3.0. APPLAUSE

:25:56.:26:02.

-- Project Fear. The gentleman here wearing the glasses?

:26:03.:26:09.

I am sorry but there were numerous different people from different

:26:10.:26:17.

parties who were backing Brexit, who were coming out with different

:26:18.:26:24.

things. So you can't say that people knew exactly what Brexit was about.

:26:25.:26:29.

Because I know the Conservative minister actually said that if we

:26:30.:26:36.

left the European Union, that we would stay in the single market.

:26:37.:26:40.

There were so many different bits of information.

:26:41.:26:47.

Anyone here think that you voted out, but thinking we could stay in

:26:48.:26:59.

the single market? Nobody, OK! I think Brexit debate has typified the

:27:00.:27:07.

ineptitude of so many politicians. There is no hard Brexit, just Brexit

:27:08.:27:12.

- what does that mean? Red, white and blue bricks and, what does that

:27:13.:27:19.

mean? You can control your own laws, you can have everything you voted

:27:20.:27:25.

for. You have no strategy, none of you on this stage have any strategy.

:27:26.:27:31.

And that is what affect Londoners and that's why we are at risk. The

:27:32.:27:38.

lady here? You also told us we would be getting ?350 million a week for

:27:39.:27:44.

an NHS. That was the Tory campaign. That was the Tory campaign, Vote

:27:45.:27:54.

Leave, that was never right. Our figure, Ukip, was ?250 million,

:27:55.:27:58.

which was actually the correct amount which no-one disputes. They

:27:59.:28:02.

were wrong. You didn't go and lie down in front of their bus

:28:03.:28:06.

correcting the figure, did you? Nigel Farage was very clear at the

:28:07.:28:09.

time that this was an incorrect figure. The day after, yes. You were

:28:10.:28:17.

Remain, were you? Aren't you now embarrassed to be part of this

:28:18.:28:22.

pro-Branksome government? No, because I said before that I would

:28:23.:28:28.

respect the result. I think what is really important now is that we

:28:29.:28:33.

respect the result and we try and bring the country back together.

:28:34.:28:37.

That means addressing the things which led people to Vote Leave but

:28:38.:28:41.

addressing the reserves of people who voted Remain liked about the

:28:42.:28:46.

institution. Where I disagree with Vince, if you stay in the single

:28:47.:28:50.

market and the customs union, that isn't Brexit. You have still got

:28:51.:28:55.

free movement, and you can't do trade deals with any other

:28:56.:29:00.

countries. That's not Brexit. It is no good as a country if we spend the

:29:01.:29:04.

whole of next year arguing about the referendum that we had last year. We

:29:05.:29:07.

have got to bring the country together and we have got to get the

:29:08.:29:12.

right Brexit deal. What do you say to EU nationals living in London,

:29:13.:29:16.

you are the only party not saying it? We absolutely want them to stay.

:29:17.:29:21.

We have a juju to people who are living here and contributing to our

:29:22.:29:25.

great city and to look after British citizens in EU countries as well.

:29:26.:29:29.

These negotiations are going to start a few days after the election,

:29:30.:29:34.

and the question is, who do you want doing those negotiations, Theresa

:29:35.:29:37.

May or Jeremy Corbyn? That is the key question. Diane Abbott, you,

:29:38.:29:43.

Labour, have conceded that free movement will end, and your party

:29:44.:29:46.

seemed to say it through gritted teeth - why did you say that, it is

:29:47.:29:51.

not what you believe? Free movement is a function of being in the EU. If

:29:52.:29:55.

we are not in the EU, free movement ends. To go back to the question,

:29:56.:29:59.

there are over 1 million EU nationals living in London. And the

:30:00.:30:04.

Labour Party does not believe that we should use them as bargaining

:30:05.:30:13.

chips in the negotiations. We believe that we should straightaway

:30:14.:30:15.

say that we will secure their position. It is not just a human

:30:16.:30:20.

rights issue, those EU nationals are working in our hospitals, in social

:30:21.:30:25.

care... Anyone in this room in that position? Maybe not. They have

:30:26.:30:30.

British partners and British children, so that's the first thing

:30:31.:30:33.

we would do. You would guarantee their place as well but are we

:30:34.:30:38.

absolutely. I am ashamed that we have not got further in nearly a

:30:39.:30:42.

year, in terms of negotiations. The negotiations are going to be really,

:30:43.:30:47.

really intricate. And yet every time you say, what are we going to do

:30:48.:30:50.

about EU nationals, what are we going to do about science funding?

:30:51.:30:54.

You say that to somebody who is Leave and all they do is shout back

:30:55.:31:00.

slogans at you. We need to be talking much more about the details.

:31:01.:31:04.

I tell you who I want negotiating Brexit, I want Caroline Lucas doing

:31:05.:31:09.

it. She was an MEP for ten years, she hasn't got a massive chip on her

:31:10.:31:12.

shoulder, and she can go out there and get the best deal for us. But

:31:13.:31:17.

once we know what that deal is, I think we need a second referendum,

:31:18.:31:20.

not the same question, a ratification referendum. Who is

:31:21.:31:25.

Brexit here, put your hand up? OK, the gentleman in the jacket just at

:31:26.:31:32.

the end of the row. I think you're living in cuckoo land, if you think

:31:33.:31:38.

we're going to throw all EU citizens out when we do Brexit, where are you

:31:39.:31:43.

coming from, we are not great to throw them out, Diane! The

:31:44.:31:47.

Government could give them reassurance, and it refuses to do

:31:48.:31:51.

so. No, we aren't throwing anyone out of the country! This gentleman

:31:52.:31:57.

here, in the middle. I voted for Brexit and I kind of get that we

:31:58.:32:00.

don't have a complete mandate to leave the single market, with only

:32:01.:32:06.

2%. But the Greens and the Liberal Democrats talking about having a

:32:07.:32:10.

second referendum, you accept that we left the European Union but then

:32:11.:32:13.

you want to give us the chance to remain in the European Union. Surely

:32:14.:32:18.

it should just big deal or no deal, just no referendum, because you've

:32:19.:32:24.

accepted that we've left? It is a totally different question. The

:32:25.:32:28.

public have voted to leave, we haven't got any understanding yet

:32:29.:32:32.

about what the destination is. Let me make a simple point - Theresa May

:32:33.:32:38.

has said that she wants to crash out of the European Union if they can't

:32:39.:32:43.

get a good deal. Which they may not. She used that phrase. In which case

:32:44.:32:49.

we may have a chaotic situation in which there are no rules for

:32:50.:32:55.

business, and under those circumstances, the British public

:32:56.:32:58.

should have an opportunity to pass a judgment on what has been agreed.

:32:59.:33:02.

Question on a different subject, another huge subject, from Margaret

:33:03.:33:08.

Fordham up here. It is, yes. I am now in my 70s, I have paid my taxes

:33:09.:33:13.

and worked to be able to afford to buy my own home, which is worth over

:33:14.:33:19.

?100,000. I want to leave it to my family, to my son, who is sitting

:33:20.:33:26.

next to me. But if I go into care, they might need to sell this house

:33:27.:33:32.

to pay for the care. Is that fair? Is it fair, Gavin Barwell, that

:33:33.:33:37.

Margaret should have to lose the value in her home to pay for care?

:33:38.:33:42.

It is the current position, Margaret, if that happened to you

:33:43.:33:47.

right now, your house would be eroded down to just ?23,000. That is

:33:48.:33:51.

all you would be able to give to your son. Theresa May is proposing

:33:52.:33:55.

briefings, first of all to raise that to ?100,000. And secondly, we

:33:56.:34:01.

are saying there should be a cap on the total contribution. Of how much?

:34:02.:34:05.

We're going to consult on that. There is an election soon, you've

:34:06.:34:09.

got to tell us! I think it is important to have a consultation

:34:10.:34:13.

about that. Margaret was asking me a simple question, and I agree with

:34:14.:34:17.

her that she people should be able to leave a significant proportion of

:34:18.:34:21.

what you have worked hard for. You must know what that cap is, to be

:34:22.:34:26.

able to work these figures out, yet Theresa May was unwilling to say. My

:34:27.:34:31.

concern is that after caring for my mum, she could be in care for years

:34:32.:34:37.

and eventually, I would have to get a mortgage to live in my own home

:34:38.:34:40.

which we have spent years paying off. I live with my mum, my father

:34:41.:34:45.

died when I was 23, we were left in loads of debt because he had

:34:46.:34:48.

dementia himself, who clubbed together, we pay for the house, we

:34:49.:34:54.

keep the house going. I am not saying, oh, great, look at me. What

:34:55.:34:58.

I'm saying is, we have got a property which we spent years

:34:59.:35:01.

looking after, when my mum goes into care, undone end up having to get a

:35:02.:35:05.

mortgage. Important to say, you're not alone. Although you say that

:35:06.:35:10.

Margaret will be better off within a bit of ?100,000, it is not quite

:35:11.:35:14.

true, is it, because the value will be taken out when she uses social

:35:15.:35:18.

care in her own home, and that is the big change? That is really

:35:19.:35:22.

important, at the moment, a lot of people are being forced out of their

:35:23.:35:26.

own home. Some people are being forced to go into residential care,

:35:27.:35:28.

that is not a good outcome for people. Coming back to the point,

:35:29.:35:34.

people will not have to sell their home at the point someone needs to

:35:35.:35:38.

go into care. What you said in your question is exactly right, people

:35:39.:35:42.

who work hard should be able to pass on a significant proportion of what

:35:43.:35:45.

they have built up in their lives, to their children. We have been

:35:46.:35:53.

paying off that property for years. Weren't Conservatives and other

:35:54.:35:58.

parties encouraging us to be aspirational, to own our own homes,

:35:59.:36:01.

in order for them to take it back from us almost in its entirety? Let

:36:02.:36:10.

me bring... You cannot spin this, this was a humiliating U-turn you've

:36:11.:36:15.

done. And also it shows that the nasty party is still well and truly

:36:16.:36:20.

alive. It is appalling. The fact is, we have not taken social care for

:36:21.:36:23.

the elderly seriously enough. What we are talking about in my party is

:36:24.:36:28.

putting ?1.2 billion purely into social care, integrating it with the

:36:29.:36:32.

National Health Service, and putting that money into social care, which

:36:33.:36:36.

we will take from the hugely inflated foreign aid budget. So,

:36:37.:36:41.

you're taking the whole of the foreign aid budget... No, we're

:36:42.:36:52.

going to reduce it from 0.7 down to 0.2%, which is what America spends

:36:53.:36:56.

on it. We are going to put ?9 billion of that into the NHS and ?2

:36:57.:37:00.

billion into social care. Sian Berry? The Conservatives have made a

:37:01.:37:04.

right mess of this. I think it is completely wrong to try and take

:37:05.:37:07.

away your home to try and pay for your care. This is social security,

:37:08.:37:12.

one of those things which should be paid for out of things like national

:37:13.:37:18.

insurance. Currently, national insurance drops to a very low level,

:37:19.:37:22.

people should carry on paying for national insurance and it should go

:37:23.:37:25.

towards social care. When it comes to inheritance, we think the money

:37:26.:37:29.

from inheritance should be taxed according to the income of who

:37:30.:37:33.

receives it, not according to the estate which is giving its. I think

:37:34.:37:36.

that would be much more fair. Some people, their home is their only

:37:37.:37:40.

asset, their children are poor, if those children are not wealthy, they

:37:41.:37:46.

should not be taxed on it. Diane Abbott, your leader, Tony Blair, who

:37:47.:37:49.

of course you are a big fan of, once said, you should not have to sell

:37:50.:37:53.

your home to pay for your care, and I think he got the biggest round of

:37:54.:37:57.

applause he ever got at the party conference, is that your policy

:37:58.:38:00.

still? Yeah, I think that is exactly right. I know people from the

:38:01.:38:07.

inner-city who scrimped and saved to buy a house in Gavin's constituency.

:38:08.:38:11.

They did without a lot of things, and to tell them, when they have

:38:12.:38:17.

paid into their national insurance all their life, that they're going

:38:18.:38:23.

to pay this dementia tax?! This was the position under a Labour

:38:24.:38:28.

government. No, because what is new, with this dementia tax, Europe

:38:29.:38:34.

you're going to take people's homes after they have died. You have taken

:38:35.:38:39.

this a step further, and you're going to have this dementia tax for

:38:40.:38:45.

people who are just getting care in their homes. Of course it is unfair.

:38:46.:38:51.

Ryan, you will have to raise more tax, to do what you want to do, and

:38:52.:38:55.

I have to mention this, you're going to raise the tax on people earning

:38:56.:39:00.

?80,000 and above. Now, you know in London, somebody on ?80,000 might

:39:01.:39:04.

not even be able to afford to buy a house, that is how crazy the

:39:05.:39:07.

property market is. So how is it fair to ask them to pay more tax?

:39:08.:39:17.

The point about... We are only talking about putting income tax on

:39:18.:39:25.

the top 5%. The point about income tax, consistently applied, it is

:39:26.:39:27.

still fairer than randomly taking the houses of people who happen to

:39:28.:39:33.

have made that investment. What about inheritance tax? Vince Cable.

:39:34.:39:42.

What is so incompetent as well as cruel about what the Conservatives

:39:43.:39:45.

did, was, they were getting all of this talk about consultation. We

:39:46.:39:51.

have already had one, we spent three years in the coalition consulting,

:39:52.:39:54.

there is a 300 page document drawn up by Andrew Dilnot, we agreed a

:39:55.:40:00.

figure, 72,000. And there is absolutely no reason whatever why

:40:01.:40:02.

the Conservatives could not have stayed with that. There is a

:40:03.:40:05.

separate issue, which links to the issue of taxation, quite apart from

:40:06.:40:10.

how you fund long-term personal care, there is a current crisis in

:40:11.:40:16.

actually paying for home care services of local councils. They

:40:17.:40:20.

have lost vast amounts of money, elderly, frail people are having to

:40:21.:40:23.

go into hospital and they are staying in hospital. One reason we

:40:24.:40:28.

are arguing that we want ordinary taxpayers to pay a penny in the

:40:29.:40:31.

pound one income tax is party to support the Health Service, but

:40:32.:40:35.

partly to support social care budget, because you have to look at

:40:36.:40:38.

those briefings together. I think we have got in the audience, I don't

:40:39.:40:44.

know if you are retired yet... You're not. You are a director of

:40:45.:40:49.

health and social care? Yes. Actually involved with the royal

:40:50.:40:54.

commission on care. Just to get the argument right, it was 14,250 is the

:40:55.:41:02.

actual limit today, not 23,000. It was the Liberals and the

:41:03.:41:07.

Conservatives who proposed in the 2014 act that it should increase to

:41:08.:41:13.

17,000, if you remember. Do you see a solution? I think what the Prime

:41:14.:41:21.

Minister did, she said, instead of having 14,250, let's have it at

:41:22.:41:25.

100,000. She also turned around and said, OK, people receiving help in

:41:26.:41:33.

their own homes, perhaps the should have it come out of their resources

:41:34.:41:37.

as well. That's roughly speaking ?200 a week. You have got to spend a

:41:38.:41:43.

lot of 10,000 driver to get that. The question I ask is, when you're

:41:44.:41:48.

sitting in government, you've got responsibilities and you're looking

:41:49.:41:50.

at the budget for adult social care, what is your priority, is in this

:41:51.:41:57.

area, or are there other areas in adult social care which you are

:41:58.:42:04.

prototypes and -- which you upright or -- which you are prioritising? In

:42:05.:42:09.

regard to the dementia tax what I would like to say is, you've done 27

:42:10.:42:15.

U-turns since your last manifesto. How dare you expect me to implicitly

:42:16.:42:23.

trust you now? Anyone else? It is not easy, this, there is no obvious

:42:24.:42:30.

solution. Hello. I think it is unfair to completely go on the

:42:31.:42:34.

U-turn, because surely if you get bad feedback and make changes,

:42:35.:42:37.

surely that is a good thing, not a bad thing. The Conservatives are far

:42:38.:42:42.

from being the only party who have done that. Who asked the question on

:42:43.:42:49.

this? Yes, Margaret Fordham, you were worried about your home? Yes, I

:42:50.:42:58.

am, and I really fear that for years, we have had to work so hard

:42:59.:43:03.

to keep our home, and for this to happen, it's so disappointing and

:43:04.:43:09.

I'm so disappointed in the Conservatives, I really, really am.

:43:10.:43:13.

We are out of time. Thank you, politicians, thank you, brilliant

:43:14.:43:19.

audience as well. All I should say, really, is that polling takes place

:43:20.:43:22.

on the 8th of June. Thank you very much for watching. Good night.

:43:23.:44:03.

Hear the arguments from the politicians themselves.

:44:04.:44:07.

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