South Election 2017: Where You Live

So it's not far off now, next Thursday, we go to the polls

to choose who represents us locally and who will form

Just what will be the winning arguments

Welcome to Election 2017, Where You Live.

Joining us tonight are politicians from the five main parties.

Suella Fernandes from the Conservatives, Simon Letts

from Labour, Layla Moran from the Liberal Democrats,

Martin Lyons from Ukip and Larry Sanders from the Green

As you can see, we also have an invited studio

And you can join in the debate at home, using the hash tag...

Let's get straight to our first question, from Chrissy Pollard.

Now then, isn't it time that the future of health and social

care was taken away from politicians and given to an independent panel

Layla Moran, what do you say to that?

Broadly speaking, yes, we need to be listening to people

I think Jeremy Hunt has done something incredible,

which is united all of them against him.

Which just goes to show how badly needed this is.

But that said, I do think that there needs to be democratic

accountability and currently, he isn't directly responsible

for these decisions that are being made.

I would support elements of for example NHS reinstatement

bill, which suggest that we have to make sure that there is proper

accountability to him, so that these decisions can't be

then left to the local CCGs, who then make decisions

about efficiency savings that affect local communities.

We need to be able for that link to be strong.

Well, in a democracy, I suppose, in the end,

the decisions have to be left to politicians.

If you are going to be spending a vast amount

of money raised from people, who would you give it to?

But in the middle of all that, and I think what has

gone drastically wrong, is we have had politicians

who are kind of, I don't know what the right word is,

they say the last thing they heard in the pub about things.

In education, it's that you shouldn't be reading American books.

You think they are not expert enough?

They are not expert enough and they are too quick.

So what you have to have, I don't think you can legislate

for it but they have to be responsible and part of that

responsibility is listening very closely to the people

And in most cases, that will be professionals

The junior doctors would say, Suella Fernandes,

for the Conservatives, there is a crisis in the NHS.

And that social care, certainly in local authorities,

I don't agree there's a crisis in the NHS.

I think we've got to keep perspective...

Because when you look on improvement...

And this is not me talking, this is independent studies.

On the last five, ten, three years, we have seen dramatic

Cancer survival rates are at record high.

Dementia diagnosis is at a record high.

We have had for the first time introduced waiting time targets

I think those are all significant improvements that have been

delivered as a response to people, professionals, talking and speaking

In answer to the question, I don't think that we should just

And there needs to be a strong element of accountability,

so that this money and if you are not happy with the decisions

that are being made, you can get rid of those decision-makers.

Chrissy, what do you think of the answers from politicians here?

Do you get better ones from professionals?

I can't believe that you don't understand that people don't trust

They don't trust any of the parties, they can't understand why

they are queueing up to going to hospitals in ambulances,

why their families are sick, the elderly can't be seen,

What do you think about the situation in the NHS at the moment?

Certainly people are working long hours under huge

But what I'm looking for from the politicians

is really their thoughts on how are we going to make

and how they want to make the NHS sustainable,

No, it needs a lot more than just money.

And money in the right places, but I think there is something more

substantial than that, which is how do we make the system

And I've not really heard anything from the politicians yet

which gives me the confidence that they have got

a real understanding of the nature of the problem.

There has been money promised by your party but it needs more

We need to get the NHS working collectively as one organisation

and I would like to agree with you, to start with because I didn't get

You've got to take the NHS and social care out of the political

We need to come to a national consensus about treating these

We need a national care service to go alongside

Larry Sanders says you need democratic accountability.

Possibly the greatest achievement of the 1945 Labour government.

And there won't be a private solution to this.

I would call for a national social care service to match the health

service and for a consensus about how to pay for it

because we can't go on just arguing about which tax

you are going to raise or which tax you are not going to raise.

And the simple reason is the demographics of the country

mean that we have to get a grip of this before the NHS

Now, Romesh, you run a care home, is that right?

Tell us the situation for social care at the moment.

The budgets are being cut hugely, several people now forced

to be cared for at home, informally by their own families

because they don't meet the local authority criteria any more.

And secondly, fees paid to providers like myself are now

We really have to think twice about accepting local

How could we pay better for the NHS and social care?

Well, my local council recently put up their council tax by 4.99%

to help pay for health and social area little bit more.

Which I thought was pretty reasonable.

The problem is you get loads of people complaining about having

to pay a little bit more for an NHS which is pretty damn great.

We all go there for free and get treated.

If people want a better NHS then perhaps they need to pay for it.

Perhaps they need to pay for it, Martin Lyons?

Ukip's approach is apart from the finance piece

which is to divert foreign aid back into the health service,

one of the big problems we have and I have just done four years

as a county council, so when I hear the Tory party

talking about how wonderful it is to cut 48 million

from the county's social care budget, it's a little bit rich.

The problem is often poor management.

On the part of the politicians or within the services?

Within the service and the politicians.

I mean, when you are running a business, you are responsible

I think it is very easy to blame managers for the problems

The real problem is the demographic changes in our society,

that is what we are facing at the moment.

It's a very different world now that we are in.

And really, the model has got to change from the model

which was really about acute problems, heart attacks,

appendicitis, pneumonia, that sort of thing.

To supporting people with long-term conditions, frailty,

Deborah Choudhury, how would you like to see it paid for?

I don't have an issue with paying more in tax,

if I was truly hand on heart felt that the money would

I think the concern is that you can pour money in but it is how

I have cared for individuals at home.

I have had experience of the care sector.

And I've seen good, bad and quite frankly ugly use of money.

I believe that tax, if it is using the right way,

If you can convince people that the money will be spent wisely.

This government has taken so long to even recognise mental health,

so why would we want to believe you now?

They are saying mental health will now be treated the same

It has taken so long to recognise it.

Just going back to the social care issue, I think there needs to be

I meet many constituents who come to me, who are very anxious

about the prospect of having to sell their own home and facing

care costs which they don't know how to plan for.

Don't you think they are going to be even more anxious, now we have heard

first of all their might not be a cap, then there will be a cap...?

There is a lot of uncertainty around your proposals.

Theresa May has been very clear in saying

that there will be a cap on the fees.

She has also been clear in saying that no one

That is ridiculous, she can't guarantee that.

The cap will be assessed in consultation with

users of the service, with charities, with professionals.

That is the appropriate way, to set a cap which is

The question was about management of the health service.

Let's give you a classic example, that we have got rid of nurse led

walk in the centres, for example, which will divert

people away from A, and into those centres.

That will save thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds.

Now, can someone tell me why we've not done that,

because we are going way against that, we're not doing that,

but we should be and yet everybody in the health service is saying...

I think we really need to go to the root of the matter.

The amount of money that has been taken away from it means it can't

The Green party and I think this is common sense says social

If you come out of hospital, they've done what they can do for you,

you come home and you can't feed yourself, can't dress yourself,

have you suddenly not become a health problem?

So you are, so the solution is to put the two together,

the national health service, which includes social care,

which is based on the same principles as the NHS.

Why should people who are unlucky enough to have a long illness

have a different outcome in life than people who are lucky enough

Avril, you have multiple sclerosis, is that right?

You pay for some of your own care now.

How do you feel about what the politicians are saying to you?

Well, I am absolutely appalled by the Conservative manifesto,

the fact that we will possibly have to lose our home

Would that not have been the case anyway, that you have to pay

for a lot of care in your illness and now they are saying

Well, they haven't stated a cap, have they?

I mean, there's been a lot of scaremongering and I just

want to use this opportunity to clarify the situation.

At the moment, you can pay for your fees and all you are allowed

After that point, it is means tested.

That could run down your savings until ?14,000.

What we are proposing is that when you are going to be

able to protect ?100,000 and the government will not be able

to go into that ?100,000 - that is an increase on the amount

The Dilnot Inquiry looked at this and in some detail

that they would implement it and then right after 2015,

There has been a lot of work done on this already.

On the funding, can I just say, the Liberal Democrats are being

If we are going to properly fund the NHS, then, yes,

we are going to have to pay more taxes and what we are saying

is a penny on the pound on income tax, which a lot of people think

is a good idea, ring-fenced for the NHS to solve the initial

crisis, which would include social care, as well as NHS.

Simon Letts, that's clear, a penny on the pound,

Well, the complexity here of first of all the Conservative proposal

is that when you have your care needs dealt with, you are being

cared for in your own home, the council will have to pay upfront

and then put a charge on people's properties.

It may come later, it may come years later.

Dealing with the complexities of council budgets, let alone

the fairness of that, is almost impossible to determine.

They have got to take it away and have another look.

They have said they are going to consult on this, and means testing.

Who in the audience would like to pay more for the NHS and social

care? Raise your hand, please. How many of you are happy to lose your

House in later life? The Heinz came down very fast. But save 100,000.

One hand hesitated a little bit there. I was lucky enough to inherit

some money and spent it on the care of my husband. Regarding social

care, people used to go into residential care when they were well

and walking around. Now, lots of people at home and in care homes

require lots of specialised nursing care. That is the pharmaceutical

companies you can blame without getting everyone addicted to their

drugs. I think that the answer for the NHS would be to legalise

marijuana and treat people medically with that. There is proof around the

world, scientific evidence which shows that it is yours cancer and

can treat epilepsy, so many illnesses that it can help with. It

is worth all billion dollars over in the States. You just look over

there. -- $7 billion. All the money that has been paid in over the

years, national insurance stamps, so on and so forth, why wasn't it ring

fenced instead of being used elsewhere? It is a generational

question, isn't it? It has been ring fenced and protected on the NHS,

that is why we've been able to commit to ?8 billion spending on the

NHS. The NHS said that was only enough to fill out a missing amount

of money, not keep up with demand. I think that is sufficient. Simon

Letts. They have not said that there are ?22 billion they have got to

change and save through STP plans which are not deliverable. We are

committed to enough money to be able to fill that gap and do more. Martin

Lyons, how much? It is actually more than that because nobody has

factored in the PFI that sits there quietly, the hospital trusts are

having to pay back. The realism is that nobody really knows. The ?30

billion was a well worked out bigger. It is a lot more than ?8

billion. The gap is utterly ridiculous. We had ?20 billion over

the last five, six years of efficiency savings. We are not

stupid. Efficiency savings means cuts. The genius of the efficiency

savings, the big cup, was cutting wages. There are more nurses in the

NHS. You asked about that. What is your reaction to what they are

seeing? There should be an amalgamation of health and social

services. Then they can be much more innovative in working out plans. A

lot of people are looked after in separate care homes and nursing

homes. Not all of them have a resident doctor or adequately

trained staff, sometimes, to look after very ill people. I can give an

example of someone who's Aegean Sea failed overnight. My friend had to

go into a care home. They could not deal with his difficult medical

needs and he was whisked off to accident and emergency to deal with

them. He then returned home quite soon after and he was very ill, and

died. That could have been averted, if things had been better organised

at home. Kurt Dickenson, you work in Worthing Hospital. I work at West

Sussex Hospital trust in Worthing. Recently we were awarded outstanding

by the CQC. We are doing a good job in Worthing. Is it in crisis? There

are lots of front-line units under a lot of pressure. I would like to say

about bonding, isn't it time with inflation moving upwards, is time to

revisit the public sector freeze at 1%? A lot of hospital staff are

really quite demoralised by that, and recruitment is a big issue, with

1%. Let's talk about the economy. We can only put that money if we are

raising it from somewhere. Adam is in the audience. What is your

question? What is more important to you, the society and the life we

live than, is it just about the money? I do think these two are

mutually exclusive. I am proud of being conservative and British

because we are compassionate society. My mother was a nurse for

45 years. And I salute all of those professionals on the front line you

give so much. Our public services, whether it is health, schools, other

provisions from the state, all of that can only survive and achieved

great outcomes if we have a strong and stable economy. I've heard that

before. Strong and stable, we have heard that before! I agree with it!

And over the last seven years, we have turned around the recession

that Labour left us with, cutting the deficit, increasing standards in

schools, increasing the number of apprentices, by making work pay. It

is hard to know where to start. It is not as though we have to work

building or doing something no matter how menial or ridiculous it

is, and then the tax it and then we do a little bit of that for

something useful like the NHS and education. Education and the NHS our

work, they are production. We can have a society that does what we

want it to do. If we want it to care for people than we care for people.

The economy is the people of the country doing their work. But it has

to be paid for, by taxes. No, no. We have had decades now in which the

wealth and income of the country have been carefully siphoned off

from the bulk of us to the very richest people. All we need to do...

APPLAUSE All we need to do is turn that

around. The Green Party has said yes, high taxes on which people. And

we have put down the exact details of how we would do that. We can

raise a lot of money and have a marvellous society. This business of

penny-pinching and worrying that someone is getting a band aid too

much doesn't come through. Some of the people having to pay these taxes

and raise money is Gareth, here. He's an estate agent. He also

represents the Chamber of Commerce. What do you think about what is

being said by the Green Party? I think he is spot on. I would be

happy to pay more money to provide better social care, education. As

the Lib Dems are saying I would happily pay an extra 1p in the pound

on income tax. You have got to pay for it somehow. Either get the

country into more debt or the country has got to pay for it. I am

fed up of hearing figures and everything about money. I would vote

for someone who actually cares about people. And that is probably the

majority of people and voters. We care about people who care about

people and not just the money. What are your thoughts on that? Let's

take a couple more comments. Education is even more expensive.

When we look at the it over the last seven years there has been a 22%

decline in proportion of GDP of money that has gone into education.

I and many of my colleagues in West Sussex would say that

Shouldn't it be made a priority in terms of taxation

I was a secondary school teacher for 20 years and our kids have been

And I have just gone on demonstrations that

are about the funding cuts that are coming to Southampton schools.

One school will lose around ?1000 per pupil.

That's equivalent of 20 teachers who will have to be made redundant.

You can't run an education system like that.

You do need to invest, and you've got to think of it

as an investment rather than just a single sum game.

Because if we invest in our young people,

that will pay back in terms of economic growth and in terms

of the country being better for everybody in terms of the taxes

that are raised and the way that we can take the whole thing forward.

Simon, your Labour manifesto leaves a ?58 billion black hole.

How is that money going to be raised?

You make all these promises. You raise people's hopes.

And when you borrow or tax more, it's our children who will pay.

I'll tell you how it works, basically.

Let's take corporation tax as an example.

Now, big businesses in this country pay the lowest rate of tax

on their profits of anywhere in the Western world.

In the US, almost double the amount we are paying.

Now, if we took it back to where we inherited it,

what the Conservatives inherited in 2010, we could have

raised ?20 billion just on that one tax rise alone.

But, would we actually raise that money?

Or would that actually drive companies

Why doesn't it drive companies away from Germany,

And, when Britain lowered corporation tax, when

the Conservatives lowered it to 20%, we saw tax revenue from corporation

tax rise, because we became a magnet for companies and more investment,

It doesn't have to be as low as you've made it.

And, in fact, increasing it again, to 20%, would raise

Our policy, for example, is to put a ?7 billion injection

into education and to ring fence it in real terms after that.

I'm a primary school governor, so, for the first time,

We have done everything we can to safeguard actual

The next thing to go are the TAs and the teachers.

It's going to be bigger class sizes and less choice for students.

If we don't get it right when we start, we are doomed for the rest of

our time and that has an obligation on things like hell. We have spoken

about health and social care. We cannot encourage people to be

healthier, more active, if we don't get education right. You mentioned

Mirabelle phones. It is how we in bed that kind of knowledge. -- you

mentioned mobile phones. We hear from Theresa May talking in

Maidenhead about the new grammar school, then making that national

policy. What do you think about grammar schools? I think it is good

but I see a different way. We have selection throughout our lives.

Every one on this stage has been selected, at 16 for college, at 18

for university, we are selected for jobs. Throughout life we have

selection. It is about making sure that that person has the right

experience in the education sector. It could be that we have more

ability to work with. Selection is a good thing if we get the funding

behind that selection, that investment. The question is, is it

about money or people? Good management is about people, and one

of the problems we have in Hampshire is that...

The problem is, in Hampshire, that we are losing teachers,

on average, five years after post-qualification.

So we invest all that time, effort and money to bring them forward.

We then don't support them, and they leave.

They are under stress. They have got targets to meet.

And that is how we spend the money and just looking

Tuition fees, I think the Labour Party have the Nanning amazing job

to engage with the youth but that is not going to affect me. Those are

going to be the new voters coming in. That won't affect me. I have

just gone through three years underground. I am still going to be

out of pocket. I do think it will be interesting to see if it does swing

younger voters but if it gets them interested in politics then it's

brilliant. You, sir. You are in the Prime Minister 's constituency. Yes,

I live in Maidenhead and I would love to go to university next year.

I have always loved the Labour Party but I am not going to vote for the

Labour Party this year because you have got to ask yourself, how are

they going to pay for all of these children to go to university? Where

is the money going to come from? I think a lot of the time with the

Labour Party, it is promises without any way to fund it. Simon Letts?

Have a look at the numbers. They are set out. It is only for size, it is

a short read. The numbers are set out, how the money would be raised

and where it will go. There will be tax rises

if Labour win power. And there will be

a lot of borrowing. So the issue really for me

on the students' position is if a child leaves university

at 21 and is then saddled with 35, ?45,000 worth of debt,

and then they have to get onto the housing ladder,

and then they have got... You cannot saddle people with that

amount of debt at the very You have got to find a way

of supporting them because... Instead of having to pay that debt

back, they will be investing that money in their homes,

and in the society that we live in. Every election, young people

are putting this box, Talking about distribution

of wealth in the country, you've got this generational gap

where older people are asset rich and they could leave those houses,

worth a lot of money, That may not happen with this

new social care plan. We could see a lot

of wealth disappear. I want policies for

more young people. This throwing money

at things really galls me. You go to the supermarket

and they say, if you come to the checkout, they say,

that will be so many pounds and you say, you think

I want to solve my problems Well, of course you have

to throw money at it. And the money has to

come from somewhere. First of all, the money has

to come from somewhere, I think it should come based

on wealth and income. Progressive taxation has been a rule

in Western society for a long time. But it has been deleted

over recent years. And poorer people pay more,

VAT is the same on everybody. Margaret Thatcher had higher tax

levels than we have now. Dwight Eisenhower, another great

socialist, had even higher levels. Over a long period of time,

a certain group of people Larry, I think there

is a problem in your argument. Universal tuition fees

being offered, proposed by the Labour Party,

just won't work. Tuition fees would put people off

going to university? We actually now have a record

high numbers of students from disadvantaged backgrounds

going into university Because the loans that they are

offered are only paid back at a certain threshold

and after some time, And that money gets ploughed back

into our universities, so that they can compete

on the world stage. That is much more sustainable

and a fairer way. Why should we all be funding wealthy

students to go to university to earn more than what many of us

maybe are learning? As a candidate from a university

town, I also know that a lot of students are put off

going to university in the first place because they can't

afford the living costs. Which is why it is incredibly

important that we have got to bring back educational maintenance

allowance for the poorer students. We have talked about the economy and

how we will pay for these services. Let's talk about the reason

the election was called Glyn Hall, director

of a printing company. You are the director

of an Oxfordshire printing company. What do you think about us

leaving the European Union? A great idea because

you can't have... If you actually look

at the sovereignty and All the negotiations with the world

trading organisation. None of us really know what deals

we can get with other countries for other things

because we are stuck You are not concerned

about your future revenue I personally believe the economy

will be very buoyant because it will give people who are trying

to work for themselves actually more Layla Moran, your appeal to people

over Brexit has fallen I'm sorry, I've spoken to a lot

of people who also own printing companies who have told me

they are incredibly We also have university grants,

research grants, ?2.2 billion of grants come from the EU

in this country. We are looking at, in my view,

what is going to be a disaster And so what we are saying to people

is that we need to make sure we don't go down this path that

Theresa May wants is to go down, this hard Brexit,

where we leave the single market, will we no longer have

rights for EU citizens. How many different industries

have already asked They are so worried

about the workforce disappearing. Martin Lyons, it is not

nearly as simple as it Well, truth be known,

all the candidates to my right, they have all got some questions

to answer because 42 years, we have been hearing

the same fear tactics, spin about Europe and if we don't

go in, we will lose After 42 years, we kind of realised

that is not actually the case. That by leaving the European Union

we can forge our own future, create jobs with the rest

of the world. It is just so short-sighted

and so narrow-minded that it's a good job the British people have

finally woken up. This time last year,

cast your minds back, we were being told by the Bank

of England, the IMF, the World Bank, all these

international institutions, Barack Obama as well,

that there would be recession, there would be job losses,

there would be disaster You think it will get

worse when we leave? Trust me, when we go

through with it, especially the way Theresa May wants to go

through with it, I think then we are going to know what a crisis

is and it is going to be... I don't think you need to get

so worried about it because... I have young children that have

to grow up into a world where the economy is not going to be

any better off. It is good to be worse off

and for you to sit there and say that Britain 's people have finally

woken up and all these people have said, all these bankers,

this is going to happen and this is going to happen and

it has not happened, Suella Fernandes, how much

is it going to cost us How much do you think

it is going to cost? Can I just say that in the last 12

months we have had the fastest We have seen record

employment in this country. I can't see a recession

on the horizon. If anybody really thought that

things were going to go well with the whole negotiation

and the state of the economy, wouldn't they be saying,

at the end of the negotiations when we know what is going

to happen, we will have These people do not want

the public to have another say because they know

what it is going to look like. Let's just take some points

from the audience here. It's all very well talking

about the economy and everything else, if we do actually leave,

the Financial Times said today they had identified 259 treaties

we would have to renegotiate There were three people in the trade

office after the referendum. And just a little bit

further down, sir? I just don't understand

the question. We voted to leave and

leave we should do. And there shouldn't be

another vote afterwards. If it is such a good deal,

why not vote on it? It is like following your

SatNav off a cliff. Because you started

off in that direction. As an ex-history teacher,

some people need a history lesson. The question should be,

can we afford to stay in? 2016, net contribution,

8.6 billion a year, net contribution, but the point is,

that is money that has gone out of our pockets that could be

looking after our elderly, This country has been stripped

of its fishing industry, its steel industry,

its coal industry. Up north, there are

third-generation unemployed. These parties must be

called to account. I agree with all those problems

but the EU didn't do those problems. You have recently been given UK

citizenship, haven't you? And I am part of the

grass-roots delegation. I have met Michel Barnier and the EU

Commission have got negotiation directives regarding EU citizens

here and the Brits abroad that Theresa May

is terribly concerned about. And he has summarised his

directives as follows, that the 4.5 million people,

their rights should be guaranteed so they can

continue their daily lives as though And bear in mind that most of those

4.5 million people couldn't And the Brexit secretary,

David Davis, today has been reported as saying the European Union demands

to protect its citizens rights We have not been able to see

Theresa May or David Davis. We have not been able to get any

appointments with them. But my question is, if David Davis

thinks that these demands are ridiculous fee hike,

which rights particularly would you remove and that is not

just from us, it is also The first point of course

is that we have got 13,000 EU citizens living

in the city of Southampton. The first thing we did on the day

after the referendum was seek They have come to our country

to build their lives here, their children are in our local

schools, they are contributing to our local economy,

and as a point of first principle, we should look after those people

and also the British people That should be agreed straightaway

and it should have been agreed by now and the fact we are using it

as a negotiating tool We are beginning already

do see a brain drain. I have been speaking to businesses

up and down the constituency. We know that people are leaving

because they are uncertain about where their kids

are going to go to school next year, They know that the EU are willing

to do what it takes to make sure they are safe and they are leaving,

so we need to make sure... Come and speak to them

in my constituency and it There has never been as far as Ukip

is concerned anything other than if you are here legally,

you are fine to stay. Do you want to come and talk to me

about individual cases about people who have been turned down

by the Home Office? I have got a whole case

study booklet that I have The UK Government is not interested

in our case studies. Should these people be bargaining

chips, Suella Fernandes? I think we need to gain perspective

on this issue as well. The majority of EU nationals in this

country will have a very legal basis They have got nothing

to worry about. And this reckless scaremongering

by political opponents to try The reality is that many

EU nationals will have EU citizens are currently

being turned down. I know we are talking

here and we are all based in the South and I can understand

and people should not But we voted for Brexit

and we just don't know... I understand the concerns we have

all got, we just don't know. But for the first time,

people are starting to listen And your own personal experience

colours how you voted. And I think we needed our

sovereignty back to get innovative and creative again

with our own country. I think you are right when you talk

about this north-south thing and of course it is not really

geography, it is really the economy. We have got large chunks of this

country where industry has been gone for decades and nothing has been

done to readdress that. That is a lazy, stupid kind

of government that said, But we can do better and that

in my mind there are two things... Ladies and gentlemen,

thank you so much for your excellent Antonsson at the side which one is

the best one to vote for. Brexit is a game changer. A generational game

ginger. Homeless issues need to be sorted, mental issues need to be

sorted, this debate about care homes, taking money away from kids

in schools. The children in schools today are our future, later. If they

don't get education they will be the same as the people I am feeding on

the streets now with no job and nowhere to live. If the NHS is still

in crisis, I think it will be for a long time. And I think it is a

dreadful thought, the taxes from the rich, were they taken abroad and

hidden away? I'm sorry, they should be made to pay up. I am undecided, I

am probably more undecided now. I don't think it has helped me much.

What of it was clean water was problems. I mean, we can talk about

the problems all day long. Everyone can point those out. But nobody is

really bringing forward solutions, so... I don't know how we can join

up health and social care. We haven't been able to do that for so

long. There has been a crisis in social care since I started work in

1960, and we still haven't solved it.

Hear the arguments from the politicians themselves.