West Midlands Election 2017: Where You Live


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Welcome to Election 2017, from the Birmingham Ormiston Academy.

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For Ukip, the West Midlands MEP and Dudley councillor Bill Etheridge.

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For the Conservatives, the Communities and Local

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Government Secretary, Sajid Javid.

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For the Liberal Democrats, Martin Horwood.

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And for the Green Party, Ellie Chowns.

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And if you want to join the debate at home on social media,

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And let's begin right away with our first question from John Mills.

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In the wake of the Manchester terrorist attack, we saw armed

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Is this an indictment of the Conservatives'

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Sajid Javid, Mr Mills obviously has the 20,000 police officers who have

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lost their positions, you know, cut from the police force

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Let me say that that terrible atrocity was just one week ago

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and I am sure I speak for all of us when I say that our thoughts

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are with those victims and their families and their friends.

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I was honoured as Communities Secretary to attend the vigil

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on Tuesday in Manchester and it was really very moving

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to see so many people come together so quickly.

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We rely every day on our police to protect us and we must make sure

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That is one reason why in 2015 we pledged to protect

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the police budget, the plan for the Labour Party

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Of course, we must have the correct manpower in the police but we must

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make sure that they are properly resourced in other ways

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using technology and everything else that they need.

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We must make sure that our security services are properly resourced

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and that is why two budgets ago we allocated over ?2 billion in more

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funding so that they could go out and hire more people that can help

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fight crime, the kind of people that have already protected us from some

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18 terrorist plots that have been foiled, something that we were

:02:19.:02:21.

Are you saying then that the cuts to police numbers now

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What I am telling you is that we want to make

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sure that the police are properly resourced.

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What we have seen is that despite the changes in the police

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budget in recent years, that we have protected since 2015,

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we have seen a fall in recorded crime of over one third which shows

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us just how good a job the police can do with

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Khalid Mahmood, Sajid Javid says that Labour would cut police

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budgets, you are not in a very strong position to argue.

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If you look at the manifesto it said that we increased

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What happened was that when Theresa May was

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What happened was that when Theresa May was the Home Secretary,

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she made the cuts in the police force, the cuts to the border agency

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staff, the cuts to the military and I think all of which the Tory

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government has done over the last seven years

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Sajid Javid talks about technology and I agree with that,

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But what is really important is when you cut away 10,000 police

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officers is the intelligence that you get on the ground.

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In my area we have a community support police officer who goes

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around, sits in people's houses, gets information locally,

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He was able to do that, he can no longer do that

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because there are only three of them left in an area that had 20

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beforehand, needed in order to work the whole area.

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Unless you have the boots on the ground, speaking to local

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people and getting the proper information, it will not do.

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To push this back to technology is not good enough, you need

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the people on the ground to provide a proper and cohesive service.

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Martin Horwood, what is the position of the Lib Dems on this?

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It is a little bit early to start making accusations against one party

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or another and it is a shame that this has become a political

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football quite so soon after such a tragic incident

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and it is important to remember that actually, we have gone ten years,

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more than ten years without a really major terrorist incident like this

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in our country and we have actually probably foiled dozens of similar

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plots, and we really owe all our intelligence services,

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including GCHQ in my patch, and our police forces, genuine

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thanks for all of the innocent lives they have saved and that is really

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important to remember, so they are doing a very good job.

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Amongst the Lib Dem proposals is lifting the 1% pay cap

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on public sector pensions, that would make places like GCHQ

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more competitive in a very competitive marketplace

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We have made a ?300 million commitment to increase

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But I am not telling you that would necessarily prevent an attack

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and I think we cannot take such a complex issue and say that there's

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one thing that has caused it, there are things like the amount

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of money we spend worldwide on peacekeeping and peace building,

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Year after year after year of Conservative-led governments

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and when it comes to election time, they bring out highly polished,

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articulate, excellent communicators who tell us how they will increase

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budgets for policing, how they are a party of law and order,

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the party of security and defence, and yet, during their watch,

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the numbers fall, the spending falls and only at election time do we get

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these superbly erudite statements about how committed

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Quite frankly, the proof is in the pudding and year

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after year we are seeing cut after cut after cut to defence,

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to security, to policing and it is not good enough to keep

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You have a superb communicator for the Conservative Party

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who will tell you all of the right words but they are not necessarily

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in the right order and the problem we will have is that this is just

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lip service, the Tories have shown they do not care about security,

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defence and policing because they have cut

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I think we have some seriously good communicators

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from all the parties this evening, including Ellie Chowns

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To answer your question directly, I do not think that the deployment

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of troops on the street is in itself an indictment, I think

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it is an understandable response, you know, people want reassurance

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after such a horrific and callous attack.

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But I think that what we have seen are very strong cuts

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to the police service, 15% cuts since 2010.

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And so, we really do need to ask ourselves whether the government

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policy is making us safer or less safe.

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It is true that it is not just boots on the street,

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it is all about understanding what is going on in communities,

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community-led deradicalisation programmes can help to make us

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But I think that it is a bit rich really for the Conservatives

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to argue that they are investing more in the police when

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There have been 15% cuts and that potentially makes us all less safe.

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Let us go back to John Mills who asked the question,

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Are there particular issues where you come

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I live in a village south of Coventry.

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We do not have particular policing issues in that area and the question

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I asked was not directed at the fact that if we had more police

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that the attack would have been prevented as the Lib Dem candidate

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However many police you have got, it will always be difficult

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to defend against this kind of attack and we all

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However, we do get a sense that with the numbers

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of police that have been cut, the cuts have gone a little bit too

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far, they have been made to deeply and resources have been depleted

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I think it is time that situation was readdressed.

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Anyone else in the audience with a view?

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I think we should have stayed in Europe and shared our

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One of the things that concerns me is that this chap

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was being monitored by the security services, but was able to get out

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of the country and come back in on a different passport.

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If you have things like fingerprint recognition at the airports,

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that would be pretty much nigh-on impossible to get around.

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There should have been this sort of investment.

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This person was clearly being monitored by the security

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services and managed to come back under a different passport.

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Thank you, this is the point where we will move on.

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Onto our next question now which comes from Jemma Yoloye.

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Theresa May voted to remain in the EU and is now

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She stated there would be no snap election and now we are in one,

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she has made a huge U-turn on what was dubbed

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How can Theresa May cope with negotiating with members

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of the EU, when it is quite clear she often breaks under pressure?

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I'm going to come to you first on this, Khalid Mahmood,

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because your leader has a few questions about his consistency

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as well, so it is not confined to any one particular leader.

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Firstly, Theresa May, she sounds hard and wants to stand out,

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good sound bites on TV but there is no substance.

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That is what the real issue is, the amount of U-turns she has done,

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The dementia tax, the U-turn within the manifesto

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That is what the problem is, that is what people must recognise

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is that she talks big but cannot deliver under pressure, has not been

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Calling this election because she said it would give

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She had three quarters of the MP supporting her,

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two thirds of the Lords supporting her.

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So why is she now wanting to do this?

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She only did it because she thought she could capitalise and get more

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votes for the party and hopefully people are not fooled by that

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Bearing in mind that your leader on the television said last night

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that he hoped that Theresa May does well in the Brexit negotiations.

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The point is that whoever the Prime Minister is at

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the end of this process, it is IN national interest

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that they do well but we started off the Prime Minister

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who were supposedly strong and stable, as it goes

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on she is increasingly weak and wobbly.

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The point we here is that Theresa May is talking a good game,

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it is about the other point I made, talk, presentation, spin.

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As this campaign goes on, do you really see Theresa May

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pushing through a clean, proper Brexit?

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I do not believe what she is saying, she is saying because it plays

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At the end of the day, we have to be able to trust

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There are so many occasions that she has backtracked

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Already just in a few weeks of the campaign.

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When she goes to Brussels, I know some of the people

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she will negotiate with, they are not soft, they are watching

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The point that Bill makes is that bearing in mind that climb-down over

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as some commentators have said, the spell of leadership

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in which the Tories have rested so much in this campaign has

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We had a referendum, there was a clear decision

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by the British people, the people in this room

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who would have looked at both sides of the debate.

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It was to ask the British people, that's the point of the referendum.

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It is our job as politicians to get on with it and to deliver

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what the British people have voted for.

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The Conservatives have agreed to that, led by

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We want to make a success of Brexit, the Labour Party has

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failed to accept that, we do not even know their policies.

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The Lib Dems, despite their name, they do not believe in the outcome.

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They want to rerun the whole thing again.

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Members of the House of Lords want to re-run

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We need to get on with it and that is why we are having this

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election, it is an opportunity for the British people

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to back Theresa May, the one person that can take us

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through this and get a successful outcome, the only one.

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Given that Theresa May just went so big on strengthening her hand,

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in a very sort of personal and direct way, to start

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presidential and solid, now she is in a sense

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reaping her difficult reward from that?

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Every vote will strengthen our hand. The more that Theresa May can

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negotiate. Remember, it is not just the European Union negotiation, we

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are dealing with 27 other leaders. This will be one of the most complex

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negotiations we have ever faced as a country, Theresa May has the

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experience, the determination and the strength to see it through and

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make sure there is a good outcome for Britain. I think it does smack a

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bit of opportunism to be honest. The various changes that we have seen on

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the part of Theresa May. And not strong and stable government at all.

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She is following them up someone else, potentially over the cliff

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edge of a hard Brexit. By difficult, potentially. With the Brexit, people

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voted for lots of different ways and there is no point rehashing that

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argument. There is some opportunities that we face with

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Brexit. I come from Herefordshire, a farming area, we have the

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opportunity to rethink how we use our agricultural subsidies. They

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could have another referendum, that will just add to the confusion door.

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I do not think so, the referendum set the direction but it did not set

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exactly what type of Brexit we would have. I think there is a risk that

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Theresa May would take this into a hard Brexit, tearing up all sorts of

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agreements that we have got, many environmental laws, many of our

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environmental protections come from Europe, one third of them are in

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danger of moving back to UK law. We think it is right in the Green Party

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that there should be a vote, a ratification referendum on the final

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deal once on the table. In the meantime, I'd like to say,

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I don't think that we should get so distracted by Brexit

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that we forget about everything else You know, there are lots of things

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that we can and should be doing. Building a strong,

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sustainable local economy. We should be getting

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on with that as well as having Martin, yours, the Liberal Democrats

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are the other party that There's a tension with that

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and the obvious demands going into negotiations which are,

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after all, about Brexit. Well, just a start by saying to you,

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Sajid, we are not questioning You want a second referendum

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on the absolute terms? We have set out on a voyage,

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OK, that's fine. But if halfway across

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the North Atlantic you see a bunch of icebergs ahead,

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and you think you're going to crash into them,

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we just want you to have the right to turn round and go

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back to a safe haven. Especially if you have a captain

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who has a habit of taking U-turns every five minutes

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on every policy going. It's not something that

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inspires confidence, is it? My main complaint about the way

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the Conservatives are approaching the Brexit negotiations is this

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incredibly confrontational They need to go on a collective

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negotiating skills course. I mean, Michael Howard,

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saying he'd be prepared to go to war Well, that's one veto

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lined up for the final If you go into a negotiation

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by trying to insult and be aggressive to the people

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you are negotiating with you will not succeed

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and only one country, only one country out of 27 has

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to veto even a transitional deal And that could be a complete

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catastrophe for this country. And, if the negotiations

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go well, fine. But if there is a bad deal,

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or if there is no deal at all We ought to have the

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right to think again. Let's go back now to Jemma,

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who asked this question. I saw you nodding your

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head during that. What do you make of

:16:59.:17:00.

what we've been hearing? Conservatives haven't answered

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the question directly because I'm asking how can we put trust

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in Theresa May if she is making When she activated Article 50

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there was no mention of what is going to happen

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to Gibraltar which, again, shows We can't trust someone so weak

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to negotiate anything Anybody want to talk

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about Jeremy Corbyn's leadership I think Jeremy Corbyn is a very

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strong and principled man and I look at Theresa May,

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I watched her last night on television, and I watched

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Jeremy Corbyn on television, having a debate on Channel 4

:17:38.:17:40.

and all I saw from Theresa May was somebody that wanted to wriggle

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out of talking about things. And she won't even debate

:17:45.:17:46.

with Jeremy Corbyn. If you won't have a debate

:17:47.:17:52.

with the leader of the Labour Party, how on earth are we supposed

:17:53.:17:55.

to expect her to negotiate Brexit? Anyone defend Theresa

:17:56.:17:59.

May in all this? You're saying Theresa May squirmed

:18:00.:18:05.

out of questions and whatever else, can we ask Jeremy Corbyn squirming

:18:06.:18:13.

on the issue of national security and his past

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negotiations with the IRA, Hezbollah, and Hamas,

:18:18.:18:19.

are they not issues that need Issues of sovereignty

:18:20.:18:21.

and protecting our nation. Theresa May is strongest

:18:22.:18:25.

and protecting our nation. She will continue to protect

:18:26.:18:28.

our nation when crime is turning to cyber and not boots

:18:29.:18:35.

on the ground. The same with the

:18:36.:18:38.

Brexit negotiation. I supported it and will

:18:39.:18:39.

continue to support One final word before we move

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on from the man in the blue shirt. I think the biggest dichotomy we've

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got in politics across the board at the moment is that whilst we have

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all sorts of people standing to be leaders, they will all

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have their own personal beliefs and the big challenge they've got

:18:53.:18:54.

is the fact that they are leading parties which democratically come up

:18:55.:18:57.

with what they believe. That's the biggest challenge

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they have, really. Briefly, if you would,

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because we must move on. Jeremy Corbyn cannot

:19:02.:19:04.

even lead his own party. 90% of his own MPs voted

:19:05.:19:08.

against him, including Khalid. What Jeremy Corbyn has done

:19:09.:19:10.

through this manifesto is listening He hasn't decided to lock himself

:19:11.:19:17.

in a room with a special adviser, not even listening

:19:18.:19:22.

to the Shadow Cabinet, or the Cabinet, as Theresa May has

:19:23.:19:24.

done, she's actually delivered That's what they're

:19:25.:19:27.

running scared of. He's the one who's embraced people,

:19:28.:19:32.

who wants to get to the general We really do have to move

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on to our next question Why can't the two major parties be

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honest and admit we need to raise income tax by 1p in the pound

:19:44.:19:51.

to fund our NHS and social Martin, I saw you

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applauding the question. This has obviously been

:19:55.:20:09.

Liberal Democrat policy for some time and its restated in this

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election campaign, as well. We've got a crazy situation

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where we have the Conservative Party pretending you can have NHS

:20:14.:20:17.

and social care on the cheap. With Labour pretending that you can

:20:18.:20:19.

promise everything under the moon but only the super-rich

:20:20.:20:25.

will have to pay for it. The fairest, most straightforward

:20:26.:20:27.

way to get the vast amount of cash that the NHS and social care

:20:28.:20:30.

really needs in this country is two, first of all,

:20:31.:20:33.

put that 1p on income tax. 2 billion for social care,

:20:34.:20:35.

the rest into the NHS, including specific sums for mental

:20:36.:20:39.

health, which is a really important issue and particularly

:20:40.:20:41.

for children's mental health, I would say and young

:20:42.:20:44.

people's mental health. And that is the kind

:20:45.:20:48.

of bold step that we need. That will solve the problem

:20:49.:20:50.

for a while but we also need a consensus amongst

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all of the parties What are the issues on NHS

:20:54.:20:55.

in Cheltenham and Gloucester, Well, the issue we've got,

:20:56.:21:02.

like most NHS trusts, we had one that, two years ago,

:21:03.:21:10.

was not flush with money Now it's in deficit, like most other

:21:11.:21:13.

NHS trusts around the country. So, for instance, my top priority

:21:14.:21:17.

is to get our A open full-time, 24-hours a day, it's downgraded

:21:18.:21:22.

at night, at the moment, how can I do that if the local NHS

:21:23.:21:25.

is looking at cuts and savings, And that's just the wrong approach

:21:26.:21:29.

for a local NHS to have to take. We need to solve that immediate

:21:30.:21:34.

financial crisis and then look at the long-term sustainable future

:21:35.:21:38.

of the NHS, which includes, actually, working on some

:21:39.:21:40.

of the things that stop people going to hospital,

:21:41.:21:43.

like investing in public health and making ourselves

:21:44.:21:45.

a healthier society altogether. Bill, I saw you pulling a bit

:21:46.:21:52.

of a face there during one Is that on the basis

:21:53.:21:56.

of your experience in Well, I was a hospital

:21:57.:21:59.

governor for three years. And the reason why I resigned

:22:00.:22:03.

from that was because the hospital car parking fees were being put up

:22:04.:22:06.

without any democratic vote of the governors and,

:22:07.:22:09.

of course, where did they go? Like so much else,

:22:10.:22:11.

into the PFI projects. The whole thing with the NHS is that

:22:12.:22:15.

successive governments have allowed PFI to get involved

:22:16.:22:18.

and they are creaming off profits. The only thing that is worse

:22:19.:22:22.

than a public monopoly Now, when you come to this issue

:22:23.:22:24.

about raising income tax. It is always the first thing

:22:25.:22:33.

that the traditional parties say. "Let's take more tax,

:22:34.:22:37.

let's take more money off Well, our party has put forward

:22:38.:22:39.

a plan that puts ?11 billion a year more into the NHS and social care

:22:40.:22:45.

without raising income tax It's simply a case,

:22:46.:22:48.

if you look where you put your money and you look

:22:49.:22:53.

where you spend your time. At the end of the day,

:22:54.:22:55.

we don't need to keep This country has a massive burden

:22:56.:22:58.

of taxation on people. You look at your pay packet

:22:59.:23:12.

at the end of the month. Government has to make tough

:23:13.:23:15.

decisions, prioritise, we're going to commit ?11 billion

:23:16.:23:18.

a year more to that. You're taking the money off really,

:23:19.:23:20.

really poor people and giving it to people who aren't quite so poor

:23:21.:23:24.

but are local to us. India with more

:23:25.:23:27.

millionaires than ours. It's going to hit really, really

:23:28.:23:30.

poor people who have got a penny. I think Bill Etheridge had

:23:31.:23:33.

you in mind when he was talking about taxation because,

:23:34.:23:39.

obviously, Labour would tax Unlike the liberals who been running

:23:40.:23:40.

this idea of a penny in a pound for the last almost 15 years,

:23:41.:23:45.

it hasn't got them anywhere. I think if they want to be serious

:23:46.:23:47.

about providing a proper national health service,

:23:48.:23:50.

they've got to realistically look at how they can get the money

:23:51.:23:52.

and how they do it properly. What the Labour Party says, we'll

:23:53.:23:55.

tax the 5% of the richest people. We'll take money from corporation

:23:56.:23:58.

tax and we'll try and make Is that going to help

:23:59.:24:01.

hospital services in That's hospital services

:24:02.:24:05.

across the country. Of course, Birmingham will get

:24:06.:24:08.

a proportion of that. What the Tories have done,

:24:09.:24:13.

and they keep saying they'll raise it, in real terms,

:24:14.:24:16.

whatever raise they are talking about now would be less

:24:17.:24:18.

than what they've already had. We've got huge amount

:24:19.:24:21.

of shortage of nurses, we've got a huge amount of shortage

:24:22.:24:23.

of staff and I know that because I've had people go

:24:24.:24:26.

into hospitals, What Bill was saying

:24:27.:24:27.

is just absolute nonsense. If you do a proper service,

:24:28.:24:30.

you're going to be playing a role in the International community

:24:31.:24:33.

as we are, what we're going to do is look at the whole the world

:24:34.:24:36.

but we've got to importantly look Efficiency is part of the word

:24:37.:24:40.

I think Bill wanted to use as well The National Health Service

:24:41.:24:45.

is the most efficient worldwide service that there

:24:46.:24:48.

is and we want to invest in it I'll bring Sajid Javid

:24:49.:24:51.

in on this in a moment. There are big issues

:24:52.:24:56.

in hospital services but let's hear before

:24:57.:25:06.

that from Ellie Chowns. To answer your question,

:25:07.:25:15.

we've got to invest more in public services and that money has

:25:16.:25:18.

to come from tax. I think we've really got to get

:25:19.:25:20.

away from this idea that Tax is the way that we collectively

:25:21.:25:23.

pay for things that we can't Actually, the tax burden in this

:25:24.:25:27.

country is lower than in most other Now, there have been well over

:25:28.:25:32.

?100 billion of tax cuts since 2010 and the vast majority of that has

:25:33.:25:37.

gone to the top half of households. So, the greens argue that we should

:25:38.:25:41.

reverse those tax cuts and we should Are there particular

:25:42.:25:44.

problems in Herefordshire? We've also got a PFI hospital,

:25:45.:25:48.

so we're paying through the nose for that sort of contract

:25:49.:25:51.

which was started under the Tories. Would you reverse the tax breaks

:25:52.:25:53.

that the Liberal Democrats gave We wouldn't reverse tax

:25:54.:25:56.

breaks to the lowest paid. We believe in progressive taxation

:25:57.:25:59.

where those who have more contribute more towards the things that bring

:26:00.:26:02.

us all together. Sajid Javid, we've heard

:26:03.:26:04.

from a variety of experiences You've got a particular sharp edged

:26:05.:26:06.

one there in Redditch with services down graded,

:26:07.:26:12.

particular budgetary pressure there. Well, first, can I say

:26:13.:26:13.

with all respect to Ellie, a couple points she just made

:26:14.:26:23.

there are completely wrong. The tax cuts in the last seven years

:26:24.:26:26.

have gone to 31 million people. So, the lowest paid people

:26:27.:26:29.

in our country, 3 million people These are Resolution

:26:30.:26:32.

Foundation figures that The top 1% today pay

:26:33.:26:34.

27% of all income tax, which is the highest proportion

:26:35.:26:38.

they have ever paid in history. What will it take to help

:26:39.:26:41.

the Alex Hospital in Redditch? What it will take, whether it's

:26:42.:26:43.

the Alex, or anywhere else around the country,

:26:44.:26:46.

the only way we can sustainably fund our precious public services,

:26:47.:26:50.

including our NHS is by having Last year, we were the

:26:51.:26:53.

fastest-growing economy in the G7. We have more people employed

:26:54.:26:57.

today than ever before. Once they are in these jobs,

:26:58.:27:02.

they pay taxes which then pay That's the virtuous circle that pays

:27:03.:27:05.

for these public services. And if we get Brexit wrong,

:27:06.:27:09.

all of that is at risk. No, let's just get a quick word

:27:10.:27:12.

from Sandra who asked the question. What do you make

:27:13.:27:17.

of what you've heard? I do agree with quite a lot

:27:18.:27:19.

of what has been said. But I do think we also need

:27:20.:27:26.

to have a long-term plan, Because that's what's putting

:27:27.:27:29.

the pressure on our NHS, as we saw I know we could go on but I'm afraid

:27:30.:27:33.

in order to get as many questions and answers as we can,

:27:34.:27:38.

we do need to move on. If you're just joining us, welcome

:27:39.:27:43.

to our Midlands Today special. You can join this debate from home,

:27:44.:27:46.

using the hashtag on the screen now. Our next question now

:27:47.:27:55.

which comes from Jack Downes. In the past seven years,

:27:56.:27:59.

the government have not met their "tens of thousands"

:28:00.:28:02.

target on immigration. The target is not working,

:28:03.:28:05.

why are they sticking to it? I'm going to come to you first,

:28:06.:28:08.

Bill Etheridge because this is obviously Ukip's big

:28:09.:28:14.

issue, immigration. At least the Conservatives

:28:15.:28:15.

are putting a number on it. They actually get record numbers

:28:16.:28:18.

of people entering the country. If you're going to make a promise

:28:19.:28:29.

at least do something you at least have some intention

:28:30.:28:31.

of following through. Mrs May was the Home Secretary

:28:32.:28:35.

at the time when immigration hit Quite simply, this is another

:28:36.:28:38.

example of the lady not How would the Black Country

:28:39.:28:44.

economy fare with your That would slow the economy

:28:45.:28:51.

down, wouldn't it? That's over a phased

:28:52.:28:54.

in period of five years. The Australian style points

:28:55.:28:56.

system that we put forward What would it do

:28:57.:28:58.

to the economy then? Well, we believe that

:28:59.:29:01.

immigration is required. You need to get people coming

:29:02.:29:03.

in to help the economy. It's simply a case of making sure

:29:04.:29:08.

that the people who come bring the required benefits,

:29:09.:29:11.

skills, and something Look, without people coming

:29:12.:29:13.

in will be in a sorry state. But, on the other hand,

:29:14.:29:18.

if you've got people filling low skilled jobs that young people

:29:19.:29:21.

are beginning to start off with, just like I did when I was a young

:29:22.:29:23.

man, stacking crates in a factory, if those jobs are taken,

:29:24.:29:27.

where do our young people start? There is a record number of youth

:29:28.:29:30.

unemployment in this country. Because they're's

:29:31.:29:32.

nowhere to start from. And, frankly, the number of people

:29:33.:29:41.

coming in from the EU, nothing whatsoever against those

:29:42.:29:43.

people, I don't blame them one little bit,

:29:44.:29:45.

I'd be coming, as well, but the point is the government has

:29:46.:29:47.

a responsibility to all others to properly manage immigration

:29:48.:29:50.

and Mrs May has totally let us down. Khalid Mahmood doesn't

:29:51.:29:53.

the Labour Party also have a responsibility,

:29:54.:29:55.

bearing in mind it was when you were in office,

:29:56.:29:57.

it was an Labour's watch that the general perception

:29:58.:30:00.

is that the government, frankly, That's why people feel so strongly

:30:01.:30:02.

about it in the Black Country and Stoke and other parts

:30:03.:30:06.

of the West Midlands. No, I think, first of all,

:30:07.:30:10.

I think the Tory promise, again, rehashed for the same reason

:30:11.:30:12.

into the tens of thousands rather than hundreds of thousands,

:30:13.:30:15.

not being able to achieve If you take it down to zero

:30:16.:30:17.

immigration, which is what Bill is also talking about it is the cost

:30:18.:30:24.

on the economy that incurs and that's over

:30:25.:30:27.

?6 billion worth of cost. We are already pushing our

:30:28.:30:30.

pensioners date later and later. The pensioners retireable

:30:31.:30:33.

dates and that's going Bill talks about, in terms of young

:30:34.:30:35.

people, that we haven't got our vocational education

:30:36.:30:40.

system done properly. If we'd properly resourced it,

:30:41.:30:42.

if we'd properly worked it, we would have young people

:30:43.:30:45.

from within the industry, like I did, when I left

:30:46.:30:47.

school, I got on a city I went through that system

:30:48.:30:50.

and I was able to get a job. Some of the things that we call

:30:51.:30:54.

apprenticeships these days So, I think what we need

:30:55.:30:57.

to do is allow proper training for our people,

:30:58.:31:02.

allow the right people to come in, through the points-based system,

:31:03.:31:05.

and I agree with that, through a points-based system,

:31:06.:31:07.

so as people can contribute to the Exchequer in the taxes

:31:08.:31:10.

and the jobs they do, value add to our country and to be

:31:11.:31:12.

able to deliver that. Ellie Chowns, there is a balance,

:31:13.:31:16.

surely, that has to be Especially, bearing in mind rural

:31:17.:31:19.

areas like Hereford where, obviously, migrant workers

:31:20.:31:26.

and so on are very much So, how do you find the balance

:31:27.:31:28.

between dealing with the concerns that Bill has been talking

:31:29.:31:32.

about and making sure Migrant labour is really

:31:33.:31:35.

important to the economy of Herefordshire and,

:31:36.:31:39.

indeed, to our economy as a whole. Migrants contribute much more

:31:40.:31:41.

than they take out in terms of what they put in to the tax take

:31:42.:31:46.

and what they take out in terms So, I think, people are barking up

:31:47.:31:50.

the wrong tree if they're saying The population of this country has

:31:51.:31:55.

increased by about 0.8% over The problem is how

:31:56.:32:00.

that is discharged. So the problem is inequality,

:32:01.:32:06.

not immigration. Well, actually, I agree

:32:07.:32:13.

with quite a lot of that. I think the statistics

:32:14.:32:19.

show very clearly... A lot of agreement between you two

:32:20.:32:21.

and yet the Progressive Alliance I'd love the Green party to stand

:32:22.:32:24.

down for me in Cheltenham. We did stand down for Caroline Lucas

:32:25.:32:28.

in Brighton, actually. All the statistics show that

:32:29.:32:35.

immigration is a benefit to this country and I think there are scarce

:32:36.:32:40.

stories from parties like Ukip report the entire population

:32:41.:32:43.

of Romania was about to move to Britain a few years

:32:44.:32:46.

back, if you remember. Things that make the numbers look

:32:47.:32:48.

worse, like the inclusion of foreign students,

:32:49.:32:50.

who aren't really immigrants and actually we welcome

:32:51.:32:52.

foreign students... Actually, they help

:32:53.:32:54.

pay for the University of Gloucestershire and they helped

:32:55.:32:59.

to spread British influence and our connections with academia

:33:00.:33:02.

and business and people and communities all

:33:03.:33:04.

around the world. So, it's a very good thing to have

:33:05.:33:08.

foreign students in this country. But we also need to do some

:33:09.:33:11.

of the things that do tackle inequality and look at some

:33:12.:33:14.

of the ways in which some employers exploit both

:33:15.:33:17.

immigrant and local Labour. So, we need to look again

:33:18.:33:20.

at the National minimum wage, we need to invest in skills

:33:21.:33:22.

and education in this country and we need to stop things

:33:23.:33:25.

like the exploitation Sajid Javid, Theresa May

:33:26.:33:30.

having repeatedly failed as Home Secretary to get it down

:33:31.:33:33.

to the tens of thousands. Can people be blamed,

:33:34.:33:36.

really, if they are having to suspend their disbelief a little

:33:37.:33:43.

bit too long on this one? Well, look, first thing I'd say,

:33:44.:33:46.

I'm the proud son of immigrants and I'm the first to recognise that

:33:47.:33:49.

immigrants from all over the world have made a huge

:33:50.:33:52.

contribution to our country. Every walk of life,

:33:53.:33:54.

whether it is business, our culture, our politics and that's only

:33:55.:33:57.

to be welcomed. That can also go alongside saying

:33:58.:33:59.

that we need to have a sustainable We can't have that open-door

:34:00.:34:02.

policy that Labour had, So that we can control the numbers

:34:03.:34:06.

overall and control the pressures, for example, it might put

:34:07.:34:17.

on our public services. And that's why I think it's right

:34:18.:34:21.

to commit to 100,000 or lower. It will be made much easier once

:34:22.:34:24.

we leave the European Union. The man near the back

:34:25.:34:32.

in the blue T-shirt. This deal is about access

:34:33.:34:34.

to the single market. You can't talk about

:34:35.:34:44.

reducing immigration Because the Tory right side

:34:45.:34:52.

were going to have a referendum that was totally unnecessary and has

:34:53.:35:04.

divided the country. It's only the rebels have got bigger

:35:05.:35:07.

spheroidal than anybody else who are actually saying

:35:08.:35:11.

what people actually think. At least they're honest

:35:12.:35:13.

and sincere about it. Your argument is total

:35:14.:35:15.

and complete and utter nonsense. When you join a club,

:35:16.:35:20.

you don't go in there and say were going to change the rules

:35:21.:35:25.

on something because Anybody in the audience who feels

:35:26.:35:27.

that immigration is running to hide? I think the problem is,

:35:28.:35:37.

if you look at the last 20 years, we've imported 140,000

:35:38.:35:41.

nurses from abroad. In that same time, the government

:35:42.:35:42.

has refused to educate 140,000 young people with the skills to do nursing

:35:43.:35:45.

in this country because it is cheaper to import a Filipino nurse

:35:46.:35:48.

for 6000 US dollars than pay ?72,000 We're not funding young people

:35:49.:35:52.

in this country and we're Jaguar-Land Rover importing

:35:53.:35:55.

engineers from abroad. Because we don't want to train

:35:56.:36:03.

them at university. We have the greatest university

:36:04.:36:09.

production of graduates ever at the lowest cost

:36:10.:36:11.

to the British taxpayer ever. Yet, were not producing the people

:36:12.:36:13.

that need to do the ?35,000 a year starting salary jobs that

:36:14.:36:16.

are available out there. We're leaving our schoolkids to come

:36:17.:36:18.

through the education system and then go and get a job serving

:36:19.:36:21.

beer in a bar, going cleaning And the amount of immigration

:36:22.:36:24.

in the NHS is indicative of our failure to invest

:36:25.:36:30.

in young people. None of the parties want

:36:31.:36:32.

to do anything about it. The Labour Party is bringing

:36:33.:36:36.

in bursaries for nurses so, that is for our own home-grown

:36:37.:36:44.

nurses. The Labour Party is

:36:45.:36:46.

committed to doing that. But you will bankrupt

:36:47.:36:50.

the country in the process. You want to do radical

:36:51.:36:55.

things, they want to put Labour has got a magic money tree,

:36:56.:37:00.

that is how they can afford it. We will move on now

:37:01.:37:10.

to our next question Will a coalition of chaos be

:37:11.:37:14.

preferable to the sort of strong and stable leadership

:37:15.:37:25.

that was demonstrated Ellie Chowns, I will come

:37:26.:37:26.

to you first because it seems to me that the Green Party

:37:27.:37:35.

has their own recipe for a coalition of chaos -

:37:36.:37:40.

you have two leaders! And they are both extremely

:37:41.:37:43.

effective, and probably much more effective than the single leaders

:37:44.:37:46.

of the other parties. The Greens have argued

:37:47.:37:49.

for a long time that we need a new approach to politics,

:37:50.:37:51.

less of a kind of confrontational playground politics and a more

:37:52.:38:02.

grown-up politics, where we talk to each other and seek consensus

:38:03.:38:04.

and compromise and try to work out the best way for the country

:38:05.:38:08.

together, rather than try to grab onto power as has happened

:38:09.:38:11.

in the last election. We got a Conservative government

:38:12.:38:13.

elected on the votes of just 24% of the adults in the country

:38:14.:38:16.

and they led us to the referendum, this other election two years later,

:38:17.:38:19.

not strong and stable. So we argue for electoral reform,

:38:20.:38:22.

we need a system where the voice of all is heard in this country,

:38:23.:38:27.

so that we can play a part in shaping

:38:28.:38:30.

the politics that we want. We argue for an extension

:38:31.:38:32.

of the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, they

:38:33.:38:37.

should get the vote too. When I think of this

:38:38.:38:39.

question, I think we need I will surprise you, I think,

:38:40.:38:42.

by saying that actually I watched him last night,

:38:43.:38:46.

I thought he was likeable, sincere, I thought he came

:38:47.:38:48.

across as a man of great principle Because I also thought

:38:49.:38:51.

that he was a man who frankly is so hooked up on his doctrine

:38:52.:38:55.

of Marxism that I believe that he will, if he gets the chance

:38:56.:39:03.

to become Prime Minister, I think his Shadow Chancellor

:39:04.:39:08.

is another man who, frankly, you know, if they are walking down

:39:09.:39:16.

the street with their Trotsky hats on and waving the red flag,

:39:17.:39:26.

would not out of place. We have Labour Party MPs are trying

:39:27.:39:31.

to make it look like it is all OK and reasonable but we all more that

:39:32.:39:37.

for the past few months they have been trying to get rid of these guys

:39:38.:39:40.

but they cannot because of Momentum. And what we have to demand,

:39:41.:39:44.

genuinely I would like to enjoy his company and set and have a chat

:39:45.:39:47.

with them, but I would not like to see him in charge

:39:48.:39:50.

of anything, let alone this country, A warm endorsement of your leader

:39:51.:39:53.

from Ukip, Khalid Mahmood! How is, in your experience,

:39:54.:39:57.

Jeremy Corbyn going down The problem is that what Bill

:39:58.:39:59.

is saying is, you know, you like the guy, look

:40:00.:40:02.

at what he has done, His principles are about democratic

:40:03.:40:05.

socialism, he has put that up. He is not a so-called strong,

:40:06.:40:12.

tough leader, what he is is a leader who is a caring leader,

:40:13.:40:15.

who listens to people and in terms of the iceberg,

:40:16.:40:17.

the reason why the Titanic broke up was because it was too bloody

:40:18.:40:20.

brittle and that is a problem that will happen with Theresa May,

:40:21.:40:23.

she is much too brittle, does not understand the issues

:40:24.:40:26.

like someone like Jeremy Corbyn who collects the information

:40:27.:40:37.

and goes through those Sajid Javid, under the leadership

:40:38.:40:39.

of Theresa May we are If Jeremy Corbyn enters Number Ten

:40:40.:40:44.

after this election, we will have him in charge

:40:45.:40:47.

of our Brexit negotiations, John McDonnell in charge

:40:48.:40:50.

of our economic policy and Diane Abbott in charge

:40:51.:40:52.

of our national security. Can you imagine the disaster

:40:53.:40:54.

that would be unleashed He would only be able to govern

:40:55.:40:56.

through a coalition and today he has offered to have discussions

:40:57.:41:04.

with the SNP on that, imagine The day after the election,

:41:05.:41:06.

only one of two people can be standing outside Downing Street,

:41:07.:41:12.

it is either Theresa May leading that government in the national

:41:13.:41:14.

interest or Jeremy Corbyn I would rather have Jeremy Corbyn

:41:15.:41:17.

than a bloody difficult woman The Lib Dems have made clear

:41:18.:41:23.

we will not go into coalition with either the Labour Party

:41:24.:41:34.

or the Conservative Party this time. This might be the experience

:41:35.:41:37.

of the last seven years. In 2010, we went into

:41:38.:41:39.

coalition because actually, and I am afraid to say,

:41:40.:41:44.

we got vilified by the Green Party amongst others for daring

:41:45.:41:47.

to go into coalition. We thought that was the grown-up

:41:48.:41:55.

and responsible thing to do Did not do you much good

:41:56.:41:57.

in the West Midlands, you got no MPs We got quite a few environmental

:41:58.:42:02.

and social policies passed the Conservatives

:42:03.:42:05.

while we were there, including taking two or 3 million

:42:06.:42:08.

people out of tax and the lower paid, including environment policies

:42:09.:42:11.

that have been rolled back Although we got a bit

:42:12.:42:13.

of a kicking as everybody knows, I still think that was the right

:42:14.:42:20.

thing to do and it was The trouble is, in the meantime

:42:21.:42:23.

the Tory Party has moved to the point where it is virtually

:42:24.:42:27.

indistinguishable from Ukip. Brief final word, are we a coalition

:42:28.:42:29.

of chaos or strong and stable? I think that the coalition is much

:42:30.:42:37.

more appealing and I have to tell you that Jeremy Corbyn,

:42:38.:42:44.

I have never seen a politician bullied as much and he has come

:42:45.:42:51.

through as strong as ever. Well, there we are, I know

:42:52.:42:56.

lots of you want to get in but I am afraid the clock is the ultimate

:42:57.:43:04.

arbiter on these occasions. Really is where we must

:43:05.:43:08.

end our debate for this evening. Thank you to our panellists

:43:09.:43:11.

for answering the questions and a particular thank

:43:12.:43:13.

you to everyone here in our audience here tonight

:43:14.:43:15.

at the Birmingham Ormiston Academy. I will be back with the latest

:43:16.:43:29.

from the general election The Sunday Politics is in its usual

:43:30.:43:32.

slot at 11 o'clock on Sunday From all of us here

:43:33.:43:36.

tonight, good night. Hear the arguments

:43:37.:44:03.

from the politicians themselves.

:44:04.:44:07.

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