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on Tuesday at the age of 86. This edition of hard to talk -- HARDtalk | :00:05. | :00:13. | |
was recorded in 2008. The US is the world's pre-eminent | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
economic and military power. But the American mood is characterised | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
by uncertainty. Opinion polls point to a hunger for change, but will | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
this year's presidential election deliver it? For six decades, my | :00:26. | :00:34. | |
guest has just did -- charted the course of the US and novels, | :00:34. | :00:44. | |
:00:44. | :00:57. | ||
commentary and essays. Is the sun Gore Vidal, welcome to HARDtalk. | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
Thank you. Happy to be here. That may begin with this year's | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
presidential election. Do you care who wins the White House? I don't | :01:07. | :01:13. | |
take it personally, know. Does it matter? Yes, of course it matters. | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
It matters to everybody. We have had an apparent government for | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
quite some time now. The current president has never been elected by | :01:23. | :01:32. | |
the people. Mr George W Bush was applauded by the Supreme Court, re- | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
elected to to a stolen election in a higher, and he is not even | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
legitimate. Yet, he goes marching around calling himself the wartime | :01:43. | :01:51. | |
President. Will he isn't one. He is making wars as he goes along. He | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
knows that is where the power is. The power of the military | :01:56. | :02:03. | |
procurement. I think he thinks he is a toy soldier. Leaving aside the | :02:03. | :02:09. | |
contentious be used to have about the legitimacy of George Bush's | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
elections, I am wondering about your response to my question about | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
whether it matters. Reading your extensive writings on the current | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
state of America, the basically portray a country that has sold out | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
to corporate interests, when military and economic powers have | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
fundamentally corrupted the ideals of the Republic. Why does it | :02:32. | :02:39. | |
actually matter whether it is Bowe, Clanton or McCain? Would you like | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
to visit Guantanamo with me and look for a cell? Weary police state | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
now. People are being locked up. Rendition. I have just come from | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
Italy where someone had been arrested on the streets of Milan | :02:53. | :03:00. | |
and shipped off to Egypt in the interest of American security. You | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
see, we are surrounded by enemies on every side and we must attack. | :03:04. | :03:11. | |
It has been a reign of terror since 9/11, all cooked up by the most | :03:11. | :03:18. | |
extraordinary crew of people we have never seen in high office. And | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
the people are not consulted. We have the worst educational system | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
for the general public have any First World country. Simultaneously, | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
we have a totally corrupted media that serves you ever is in power | :03:34. | :03:41. | |
who will pay enough for television time. These big themes you trot out | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
about war, education, failed media, these are protracted over time. Yet, | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
you seem to be saying there is something exceptional about the | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
Bush years. I am confused about this disjuncture. Don't be confused | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
any longer. We have never had the constitution dreaded by a sitting | :04:03. | :04:12. | |
:04:13. | :04:14. | ||
President, but that has happened. A few months ago, we got rid of our | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
lovely gift from England. Habeas corpus and so on. The Magna Carta. | :04:19. | :04:29. | |
It's gone. It was the basis of our legal system. It is gone. D believe | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
that when you say these things, most Americans have sympathy with | :04:33. | :04:41. | |
you, or are you talking to a very small number of people? I have to | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
warn you about something. I'm very popular. I'm not some aberrant he | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
goes around saying unpleasant things about whoever happens to be | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
the poet -- president. Unfortunately, I have to | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
occasionally. We were lucky to get thank you pretty good candidates on | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
the Democratic side in this election and one of the most | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
incredibly awful ones in Senator McCain on the Republican side. Do | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
you remember Mr Magoo? Blind, misses the point to everything, is | :05:14. | :05:23. | |
always stepping off a cliff. Senator McCain is Mr Magoo. He is | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
the most experienced candidate. he is the most experienced | :05:28. | :05:38. | |
:05:38. | :05:40. | ||
candidate. No he isn't. He smashed up his aeroplane. Normally, you get | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
a court-martialled for that. Then he was taken prisoner and held for | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
a long time and made no effort to free himself. Did he not show | :05:48. | :05:55. | |
enormous courage? Discourage matinee President? Not courage of | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
that kind. What has he ever done? What has he ever step -- said or | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
stood for? What he has done over many years in the US Senate is | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
stand up to many in his own party. He showed an independence of mind | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
which might well be a useful asset in a President of the US. It might | :06:14. | :06:21. | |
well be if he had any glimpse of sincerity and a nature -- of | :06:21. | :06:29. | |
sincerity. He has a nature that is Magooish. But me ask you about | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
Obama and Clanton. You are a Democrat and have always been. | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
Sometimes, you seemed to sympathise more with Hillary Clinton. Now that | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
the race appears to be in its final lap and Obama is regarded by | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
pundits as certain to win the nomination, t think she should | :06:46. | :06:54. | |
withdraw? No. She has fought a good fight. It was for something larger | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
than herself. You could argue it is just for herself, she is the | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
candidate. But simultaneously, no woman has ever got that far in our | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
politics. She has been a brilliant politician and I certainly wish her | :07:10. | :07:18. | |
well. You were quoted recently as suggesting that her continued | :07:18. | :07:25. | |
pursuit of the presidency was crazy. Well, I'm looking at it | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
sympathetically from her point of view. It is crazy. She does not | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
have the money, she is desperately trying to raise it. She has the | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
entire press against her. The Republicans are very good at | :07:38. | :07:48. | |
:07:48. | :07:49. | ||
smearing people. We had a very good candidate in Senator Kerry. An old | :07:49. | :07:56. | |
trick of political gangsters is one of the opponent is strong, Kurri | :07:56. | :08:03. | |
was a genuine war hero, and he was knocked down for that. They said | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
that he was not courageous, he lied. They had people come out and they | :08:09. | :08:16. | |
spent a lot of money smearing him. You are very adept at turning your | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
answers in two attacks on the Republican Party... It is very easy | :08:22. | :08:29. | |
to. But in the Airtime, Clanton fight, there are many people on the | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
Obama side of the fancy believe it is the Clintons who are responsible | :08:33. | :08:43. | |
:08:43. | :08:47. | ||
for introducing a very strong and arguably dangerous racial element. | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
This is exactly what the other team wants to do. The only thing they | :08:51. | :08:58. | |
know is how to smear people. The other day, there was a guy called | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
Ludwig who is a Neo-conservative -- Neo-conservative of the lowest form. | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
He published an op-ed piece in the New York Times. An extraordinarily | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
bad newspaper in my view. He was saying with no evidence - everybody | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
in America -- everything in America his opinion - the opinion was that | :09:20. | :09:30. | |
:09:30. | :09:39. | ||
we should be wary of Bowe. -- of Hillary Clinton said she was the | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
candidate who could appeal to the white working class. Was that a | :09:42. | :09:50. | |
mistake? Note. To say it in racial terms? She did not do it in racial | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
terms. Her various handlers in a party where she was strong with the | :09:57. | :10:05. | |
boats. I'll tell you where she was weak. It gets a nice laugh. When | :10:05. | :10:12. | |
she started to run for senator for New York, they discovered that | :10:12. | :10:21. | |
there was one group that really hated her. This is white middle | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
aged men of property. She was talking to others and asking what | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
she had done to them. She was trying to figure out how she could | :10:31. | :10:40. | |
rectify this. Some time after she had been told the bad news, I saw | :10:40. | :10:50. | |
:10:50. | :10:54. | ||
her and she said "Apparently a remind them of their first wife." | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
let me ask you about Bowe. He said he is fresh but has not done | :11:00. | :11:10. | |
:11:10. | :11:20. | ||
It is standard political rhetoric for a liberal from Chicago in a | :11:20. | :11:27. | |
race for president. People have compared him to JFK. JFK was not | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
the greatest statesman of all time. He was certainly a rhetorician who | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
could electrify the American public. He went there. I was not around at | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
the time but I have seen his speeches and they are quite | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
extraordinary. So what? A good speech is a good speech. That's | :11:46. | :11:55. | |
that. What is a good policy? Was his invasion of Cuba a good policy? | :11:55. | :12:05. | |
:12:05. | :12:07. | ||
Jacking up the war in Vietnam? Into a major war. This is enough bad | :12:07. | :12:17. | |
:12:17. | :12:20. | ||
activity on his part. He is not a parrot on. But if Bowe wins, would | :12:20. | :12:30. | |
:12:30. | :12:32. | ||
you change your mind about him? don't want a man mouthing cliches. | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
Let me ask you to take a step back. You have been an observer of | :12:37. | :12:44. | |
politics, not a player. Yet, in your career, you could have been a | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
player. The Democrats wanted to. He ran for office once and were | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
offered what looked like a safe congressional seat but decided not | :12:52. | :13:01. | |
to do it. I was writing books again and that is far more important than | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
seven in Congress. Is it? Yes it is. The books make more of a difference | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
then serving your country in Congress? I would like to take you | :13:11. | :13:18. | |
on the floor of Congress and see all the lobbyists outside lined up. | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
They have a buzzer in the House of Representatives that goes up. It | :13:21. | :13:30. | |
means there is about to be a boat called. As you go end, two or three | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
lobbyists will say eight years on one for 7, No on this one. They are | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
getting their orders. From the people who are giving them the | :13:39. | :13:49. | |
money. You can be pure and not listen, but it is a rough fight. I | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
would rather take on those who are out to destroy the Republic. | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
your weapon is a novel Warren as a? -- SA, what difference can you | :13:59. | :14:09. | |
:14:09. | :14:09. | ||
make? -- a novel or an essay. seem to have it. Do you think you | :14:09. | :14:17. | |
have? I can prove it. Fine. I have Paul's done on me. What did you | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
most like about the speech he gave, what positions do you approve work? | :14:23. | :14:32. | |
:14:33. | :14:38. | ||
We read your work and we hear many criticisms. The actually love your | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
country? You seem to have a complicated country. Anyone who | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
loves the country is in such trouble. That is nonsense. Added | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
that has come every war, every family and everything that is wrong. | :14:53. | :15:00. | |
-- fan and. But you care about the US? Why am I talking to you about | :15:00. | :15:09. | |
it? It is not that I am exhilarated by sitting here. I suspect it is | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
not. What is the answer? Why had he spent most of your time writing | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
about the ideals that brought America into being, about its | :15:21. | :15:27. | |
history? Shouldn't somebody do it? I am interested in the country, not | :15:27. | :15:34. | |
me or my career. All the other writers who I know, they are only | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
interested about themselves and making it. I could not give a god | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
damn about making. It did not stop you from being waspish and bitchy | :15:44. | :15:54. | |
:15:54. | :15:55. | ||
about your fellow writers. If he didn't care... I only write about | :15:55. | :16:02. | |
them occasionally as a critic. Always to praise. Chairman Capote | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
he passed away, you described it as a good career move. I did say that. | :16:08. | :16:17. | |
:16:18. | :16:28. | ||
-- Truman Capote de. I am finding, from time to time. -- funny. I am | :16:28. | :16:35. | |
jittery with insecurity. That number does not work. Capote de was | :16:35. | :16:43. | |
the most illegitimate literary figure of we ever produced. He was | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
a consumer Flyer. He never stop lying. I took him to court and I | :16:47. | :16:55. | |
sued him. I won. He had to print a huge apology to mean in one of his | :16:55. | :17:03. | |
books. You have spent a large part of your life, most of your creative | :17:03. | :17:10. | |
years, in Italy. And yet you say you were not in exile. Of course I | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
wasn't. What we doing? I was writing books about America. | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
wouldn't it be more natural to be doing it in America? Your mind is | :17:21. | :17:28. | |
in conflict. What does it give you? That distance? It gave me history. | :17:28. | :17:38. | |
:17:38. | :17:40. | ||
It gave me Aristotle. I am quite good with Aristotle. It allowed you | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
critics, he had many in the US, to suggest your view of America was | :17:45. | :17:54. | |
out of touch with the country that now is. It is not. I reminded you | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
earlier, don't forget that I am popular. They read my books out | :17:59. | :18:09. | |
:18:09. | :18:13. | ||
there. You cannot pretend that I am unpopular. America in the world, | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
you have written a lot about it. You have talked about an American | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
empire which you see it as being in decline. Is it a terminal decline? | :18:24. | :18:31. | |
I hope so. Henry James was no full when it came to politics. He ended | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
up his life living every here as a Brit. But he said something very | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
interesting. It was the time of the Spanish American war which we used | :18:42. | :18:50. | |
as an excuse to seize the Philippine Islands. One of his | :18:50. | :18:58. | |
nephews wrote to him and asked him about what is going on in the US. | :18:58. | :19:08. | |
:19:08. | :19:10. | ||
And he read a very ominous letter back to his nephew. He said, where | :19:10. | :19:18. | |
an empire symbolises the British, it will further Barbara's house. -- | :19:18. | :19:28. | |
:19:28. | :19:29. | ||
destroy asked. After 9/11, the Bush administration faced a challenge. | :19:29. | :19:39. | |
:19:39. | :19:41. | ||
There is no such thing. The Twin Towers came crashing down. You're | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
underground when crashing up, whatever it did. This is a period | :19:46. | :19:53. | |
of unrest. Do not believe, some people are very sympathetic to you. | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
They admire you a great deal like Christopher Hitchens and Martin | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
Amis. They are believed the US has a duty to take a stand for freedom | :20:04. | :20:12. | |
and democracy in the face of intolerance. We had an idiot | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
prisoner named Woodrow Wilson. He got us into World War One. -- idiot | :20:17. | :20:24. | |
President. Why did we go to war? He wanted to make the world safe for | :20:24. | :20:32. | |
democracy. Meaningless. Politically, a strategically and morally. There | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
were never be a good war. You can never prove it by me. The Second | :20:38. | :20:46. | |
World War? A war worth fighting? spent three years in it. For those | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
who like wars, I suppose it was the only one we had for a while. What | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
about Bill Clinton's admission that he wished he used American power to | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
intervene in the wonder? He is a politician. He says anything that | :21:02. | :21:12. | |
:21:12. | :21:13. | ||
might work. Is there a moral obligation for the US... no I don't. | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
Morality is the last thing to Republicans would ever do or talk | :21:17. | :21:25. | |
about. We have been immoral from the very beginning. We did very | :21:25. | :21:32. | |
well for a time. Now we get worse, and worse, and West. Your | :21:33. | :21:42. | |
grandfather was an isolationist. So was I. I prefer to be an | :21:42. | :21:51. | |
interventionist. England got into the bad habits, around 1939, in | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
trying to draw the US into continental wars. It was no | :21:55. | :22:03. | |
business of ours. Wisely, I should -- isolation less always won. | :22:03. | :22:13. | |
Roosevelt was a very sighted man. He was all for getting us in. First | :22:13. | :22:21. | |
of all, against Japan which was running riot in Asia. And the | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
Europe with Hitler. Because you don't like a dictator does not mean | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
you go to war all the time. We are almost at a time. Yes, we are, in | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
every sense. Before time closes down on us. Do you think you are | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
swimming with the tide of American history? If I was, I would reverse. | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
You are a country Erian. No, I am practical. The US is going out of | :22:50. | :22:56. | |
business and I do not enjoy that. We are irrelevant. And it is | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
irresistible, in its decline? cannot do it alone, can I? You told | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
me you are very popular. I am but I am not going to run for president. | :23:08. | :23:14. |