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Christos Tsiolkas, Australian novelist

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agreed it was time to advance a political process. In many ways

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Australians have never had it so good. This economy is booming but

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is it a country at ease with itself? Well, not according to my

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guest today, the Australian novelist Cristos Chalkes. His book

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The Slab depicts a suburban Australia - he is ashamed at the

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direction modern Australia has Welcome. A pleasure thank you.

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Australia was once dubbed the lucky country but in your fiction it

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seems like the unhappy country. Is that fair? I'm hesitating because

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for me it is a bizarre place, Australia. You know, we are doing

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this interview still in the middle of the global financial crisis when

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I was in Europe last year I was in Greece so I saw the real effects of

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what that crisis means, the insecurity and anxiety that comes

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from that. So you look at a country like Australia which has been

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sheltered from that crisis because of a whole entry kit history of

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politics to do with our relationship with Asia so we are

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the wealthiest we have service ever been. Australians have never had it

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so good the early? When I started to write The Shraipt was trying to

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make sense of to things happening. One I come from a particular

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background which I'm really proud of but in writing in being educated

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I just feel like I'm no longer - I can no longer claim a right to a

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working class background that my parents come from. Because they

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were working class immigrants from Greece? Yes, part of that massive

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immigration that came to Australia Post-World War II from southern and

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eastern Europe. So I'm very conscious of that heritage and how

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my fortune is the dependent on the personal history of my parents but

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I was aware that impart of the middle-class, you know. I had not

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really in my previous work dealt with what that meant. Because that

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is what I picked up from the book and from some of the other writings

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that I have seen of yours. You seem to be uncomfortable with the

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middle-class you have entered. One phrase that stuck in my mind from

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you, you talk about the crevicees and the dark spaces of the

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Australian suburban landscape. Australians tell ourselves we are

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larrikins that she will be right mate that we are accepting and over

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the '90s and the early part of the 21st century I thought we were the

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most selfish that I have ever seen. We are the most grasping and greedy

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and xenophobic and unkind that we have ever been. I think it is very

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true. These are the people you life among. I resist the idea of that

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being part of a people, many part af nation is that you cannot see

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yourself clearly. Growing up in a migrant household there was also

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the romance of a place called Greece and a place called Europe

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you are a part of and I could escape to that. It put two or three

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years of a visit to Europe to put that at rest. I wanted to really

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have a look at who we are, what we have been doing, what we have

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become and that is where The Slap emerged from, that is what I wanted

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to write. I think it the is a harsh thing to say but not untrue. I love

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reading contemporary fiction and I read a lot of it, but I do not

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think I have ever come across a book where so many of the voices

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through whom the story is developed and told are so utterly unlikeible,

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even despicable. A lot of people have said that about the characters

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in the book. I do not think that. I certainly do not think that about

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the old man in the book. Yeah, he... He is the Greek father of one of

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the main characters. He himself appears quite a lot but it is

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really his son who is the central person. Yes, in the book. But he

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has, yes, incredibly sexist attitudes. Most of the men in the

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book are mosogonist? I would say one of the things about being a man

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in the culture is being aware of the your slide into mosogony, of -

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it is not only on a level of making sexist comments or assumptions, it

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is actually fear or hatreds of women. Having to be conscious of

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that. The violence in the book and a lot of the sex is written as some

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critics have said in quite a pornographic way. Was that

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deliberate? Yeah. I was really surprised by the poverty of a lot

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of that criticism. I was really surprised they would not

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acknowledge that porn ago if I is one of the ways -- porn - I can not

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avoid porn, it is on the internet, on the screens, it has infected - I

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use that word - the way I look at sex. The Slap is not isolated from

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my other work I said from the beginning and maybe that has to do

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with with being homosexual and growing p in a culture like this.

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So on the one hand a very traditional Greek culture where it

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felt, it just felt impossible to be a faggo t to be really blunt.

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you are honest that is the way your own father and family would have

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viewed a homosexual, as a fag not? Yes. I remember coming -- faggot.

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Yes, I remember coming out to Mum on the cusp of my 20s, and I had

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been living away if home for a while an she just was trying to

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understand why I had cult myself off from the family -- cut. And I

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had to turn to her and say "Look, I'm gay" but I did not know the

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Greek word for gay and she did not know what the word gay meant back

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there so I had to say I was a fag. That was the only language hi for

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it. In saying that I do not - you know, I think my parents have made

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remarkable journey as I V I think there is great dignity an courage

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in their unrelenting support for me, but there was no way - I did not

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understand how to be a man and be gay. It just didn't make sense to

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me. That was a long struggle. Did you think it is because you are a

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gay Australian that you are able to take a particular maybe a more

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detached view of what is going on with the majority of Australian

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hetrosexual man hood? Because of my sexuality and I'm talking 25 years

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ago, because of my sexuality and because of being, you know, to be

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blunt a wag in this culture, an outsider in this culture. That gave

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me an outsider perspective an insider-outsider perspective and I

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think that is extremely valuable for a writer. You said to me I am

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wo g. What on earth do you mean by that? That was the derogatory term.

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Even though they were olive-skinned immigrants from the Mediterranean?

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Yes. You have to understand that there is for a long time in this

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country - and I was born at a time when it had not gone away - there

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was a white Australia policy. Australia was going to one, we were

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going to deny a racial history built on the history of the

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Indigenous people here. That is one of the things why race politics

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continues to be so difficult and confronting for Australia, as we

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still have not resolved that in any meaningful way. I look across to

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New Zealand u I'm not trying to be romantic about it but they have a

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better relationship between Indigenous and non-Indigenous.

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Kevin Rudd's government issued the formal apology, you talk to young

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Australians on the streets and they will say that it feels different

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now. This government has recommitted itself to a specific

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multicultural strategy for this country. It has. Just now after a

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long period of making the word "Multicultural" a very, very dirty

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word by parties, by the Liberal and the Labor parties in Australia had

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straight away. I just want to be clear - are you suggesting, and it

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feeds into my original question about your view of Australia,

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whether it is an angry and unhappy country? Are you saying that

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Australia today is still dogged by racism? Think Australia is still

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dogged by fear of the other and racism, yes. I think your country

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is, Stan. I know Greece is. I mean, you know, what was the major thing

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I heard from Greeks when I was over there? The fear of the immigrant.

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The difference is that Greece obviously is an ancient culture

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with an ancient tradition. Britain is a pretty old established culture

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too. This is a country built by immigrants. In a way it is more of

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a paradox for an outsider, a stranger for you to sit before me

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in Sydney saying "This country is dogged by racism when it is full of

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immigrants". Everybody has come from somewhere except when it is

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the Aboriginal community. I - think it is a contradiction because

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it is real. I will be more harsh about Australia because I live

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there and it is a place I will die so I want to stake my claim in this

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country. As a man living here, um, I have my own observations to make

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about other places in the world. Um, but I do fear that racism is a side,

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as I said before, that we have not felt properly in this country.

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it is a tough place to be inside your own country and because you

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have said because of your sexuality and your ethnicity to be an

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outsider from the very get-go and then to be so public in your

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critique of the way society works? It makes you very lonely, isolated?

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I do not feel like that at all. I feel I'm more part of my life, I

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have such a solid relationship, such a solid family, such a solid

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network of friends. So I think maybe that gives you a certain

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freedom to express things. I think it is important to keep demanding

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of Australians that we get better and get better at dealing with our

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racial and immigrant history. One, because, yes, you talk the people

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on the streets and you say that we are better at dealing with

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Aboriginal people and Aboriginal history. Yes, Kevin Rudd made the

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apology and I was at the Aboriginal Advancement League in Melbourne

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when that apology was made and I will never forget that day and how

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important and moving it was. But the reality is on the ground

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Aboriginal people are dying much younger than we white Australians

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are dying. They are still living in unbelievible squalor and poverty.

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Those things have not changed. I was just coming to the sense of

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view I was reading that over half - they were doing a poll and over

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half of the population of Sydney express racism against Muslims and

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they do not want Muslims to come into the country. So things have

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changed. Things always do change. I think there was a slide backwards F

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you had spoken to me in the early '90s I would have been much more

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buoyant about this country called Australia. I come back from Europe.

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Thank God I'm here. At that time Europe to me was a nothing in lots

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of ways it still is obsessed with class in a way we do not have it

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here. That is probably one of the things I do really like about this

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country. But I thought that yes, we were multicultural, I thought we

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were an immigrant nation that was proud of that heritage. Then in 15

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years that all evaporated or that is what it seemed like to me and

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that its what I wanted to write about. It is a way where your book

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overlaps with current reality because what we see in the

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Australian political debate is that race has become absolutely the most

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heated, divisive issue the plate call agenda and on the right wing

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of Australian politics we have shadow Cabinet ministers railing

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against government tax dollars being used to pay for the funerals

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of those people killed in the Christmas Island boat smash. We

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have other figures in. The Opposition Coalition saying Islam

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is a totalitarian ideology. Do you worry about what you are hearing

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right now in the political debate? Just the other week when there were

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the images of the refugees burying their dead and then I heard, you

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know, a Liberal politician saying that we should not be paying to fly

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those people to the funeral. And you know what, I felt such a

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disgust and hatreds for a moment for this country. I just wanted to

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be out of here. Maybe growing up in the shadow of racism means that I'm

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just - maybe I'm overly aware of it. Maybe I'm too quick to see it. That

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is possible. It think that is possible, -- I think that is

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possible. But I really will the fight that moment of hatreds. I

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really had to fight saying I am disgusted with my country. I don't

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want to live in that feeling because that is the only place I

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have. I cannot go back the geese or Europe. What about reception for

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the book which has been termed by the ABC the main broadcaster, state

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broadcaster in Australia, has been turned into an eight-part

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television fiction, sold enormously well. What kind of reaction has it

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prompted in this country? One of the things I'm really conscious of

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is a sense of relief that someone is describing an urban Australia

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that actually looks and sounds like Australia, the Australia we live in,

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not some kind of fantasy of London or New York or Paris, that is

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Australian, that you know, Australians are people like me. Um,

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I think that partly explains, not completely, but partly explains

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some of the success of the book. I think there is a relief. The book

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describes a new middle-class that is as much Greek as it is Scottish,

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that is as much Lebanese as it is English, that is as much Chinese as

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Welsh. I think that is the reality of the world I do move in.

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Melbourne almost feels like a country in itself sometimes. Like I

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feel quite comfortable in Melbourne. And maybe I think there are spaces

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in Australia which are that old Australia. And I think some of the

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resentment that has been expressed about the book, about some of the

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anger expressed about that book has to do with the fact that old

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Australia does not recognise itself enough. I make no apologise for

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that. Do you want to reach out to that old Australia? Do you want to

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reach out to them, to find a way of communicating in with them?

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would be an amazing hubris really to think that I can do that. What

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gives me pleasure is writing so that's what I'm going to dofplt and

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if I have any effect it come only come through the writing. I mean a

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lot of people read The Slap and think it is really vulgar. I mean

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I'm not interested in these people. And what I'm hoping is that there

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will be some audience out there that will respond to the honesty in

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the book. It strikes me that the two characters who are most decent,

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who offer the most hope in your book, are the to youngest main

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characters, the teenagers, Connie and Richie. Is that because you

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invest for this country itself, a huge amount of hope in the coming

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generation? Is that where you see Australia's best hope? In the main

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I see - I do get hope from seeing how young kids interrelate with one

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another, that they take a multicultural, multi-ethnic life

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for granted and they live it on a street level, on a home level, on a

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friendship level, on a love level in a way that I think was not

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possible for me in my generation. That in short is the Australia you

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want to believe in? Right. They all have a my generation self respect

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that is something I respect about the a generation younger than

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myself. Are you writing new fiction about contemporary Australia?

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in the middle of a novel. Touch wood, her you talk about - I would

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be an idiot to - I would be an idiot to complain about the success.

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It is that little dream that I have had for so long. I thought you were

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going to say something negative about success? Just that you can

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get quite busy! I mean, I have been writing for a long time now and I

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really did not sit down to write a best seller. That was not what I

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wanted to do. It took me a long time to start this next novel

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because I was scared. I was scared about what were my - what were my

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motives, you know? Was this a book I wanted to write because I wanted

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to write this book or was it because I wanted to follow The

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Slap? Suddenly I had a blueprint for a best seller. To put it

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bluntly, your first book haves not sold terribly well. Some people

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have loved them but they have not sold very well. Suddenly you have a

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best seller that goes international. And I wonder if there is a part of

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you that says "I have to repeat that I have to get the sales even

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higher, I could become a major international literary figure"?

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must have heard this. There are moments when row sit at the desk

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writing and you think "My God, I'm genius, I'm up there. No one is

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writing like this!" and then just as often you think "I'm going to be

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revealed for the fraud I am any moment now". The next book is about

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a swimmer who fails in his Olympic dream and part of that is because I

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want to deal with those questions of failure and success. Is there a

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fear that you might be the writer who strives, has some success, then

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fails? Yes, of course there is. Of course there is. That will go away.

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I doubt it ever goes away for anyone no matter how successful

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