Browse content similar to Najib Ghadbian, Syrian Opposition Consultative Council Member. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
speech on behalf of a charity. Now it is time for HARDtalk. | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
His Syria in the throes of a revolution? More than 1,000 people | :00:16. | :00:23. | |
are said to have been killed in the Government's response to protests. | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
But the rebellion has not been crushed. Here are the organisers | :00:28. | :00:38. | |
:00:38. | :00:41. | ||
and activists of the street revolt? What do they want? My guest today | :00:41. | :00:48. | |
is Najib Ghadbian. She is a member of the newly-formed Syrian | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
Opposition Consultative Council. What would happen if President | :00:54. | :01:03. | |
:01:04. | :01:13. | ||
Assad went? It would chaos follow? Najib Ghadbian, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
Thank you for having me. Let's start with the latest reports on | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
the grounds of Syria. We're not allowed into Syria but reports | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
suggest there is a huge amount of tension around a northern town. | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
What are you hearing? We're hearing a couple of things. Firstly there | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
is a mass movement of people are afraid they will be it revenge from | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
the authorities. They left towns and are at the border. Numbers | :01:46. | :01:53. | |
estimate between 1015 hundred. They're mostly on the Syrian side | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
of the border. Some Irene Turkey. We have been able to talk to some | :01:59. | :02:09. | |
:02:09. | :02:15. | ||
of them but we're losing contact. They started increasing. Let's get | :02:15. | :02:25. | |
this straight. The BBC has been told that the Government says 120 | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
security personnel were massacred by armed gangs in that northern | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
town. Are you saying that did not happen? We very much question the | :02:38. | :02:45. | |
story of the armed gangs. We have soldiers -- stories of soldiers who | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
had been killed. We believe this is because they opened fire on | :02:51. | :03:01. | |
:03:01. | :03:02. | ||
demonstrators or they defected. We have 21 documented cases of | :03:02. | :03:11. | |
protesters killed. Most of soldiers to have been killed have been by | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
security forces for refusing to carry out orders. The Syrian | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
government has provided the names, the background to the dozens and | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
dozens of security force personnel who they say have been killed by | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
armed gangs and extremists. Given the level of detail it does seem | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
they must be some truth behind the notion that some of the protesters, | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
the opposition forces, have arms and day using them. We know that | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
some people have arms but so far they have shown great restraint. | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
One of the strengths of the revolution is that it is peaceful. | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
But you know that a substantial number of protesters have access to | :03:58. | :04:05. | |
weapons. Some people in towns do have personal weapons, like pistols | :04:05. | :04:15. | |
:04:15. | :04:17. | ||
and rifles. There has been talking up arms coming over the border, for | :04:17. | :04:27. | |
:04:27. | :04:31. | ||
example by Turkey. What we're have here is a professional army. Then | :04:31. | :04:41. | |
:04:41. | :04:42. | ||
we have this elite unit recruited by individuals loyal to the regime. | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
It is these elite units that are being carried out -- carrying out | :04:48. | :04:55. | |
most of the killings, not the regular Army. We have the story of | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
a soldier who was brave enough to say that he was witness to two | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
massacres. It is very difficult for you to know what is going on, just | :05:06. | :05:14. | |
as it is for me. You're based in the United States and are now very | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
involved with the precedent reformists. The fact is you are a | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
long way from the action. How can you be sure that the information | :05:22. | :05:30. | |
you are receiving it is not manipulated? What is happening, by | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
not allowing independent media access to Syria, which we would | :05:34. | :05:42. | |
like. Remember that Egypt was a televised resolution -- revolution. | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
The young people here are very savvy with technology a video | :05:48. | :05:55. | |
taping what is happening on the ground. They send them to ask. This | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
is the only way for us to spread the word. Many people watching this | :06:02. | :06:12. | |
:06:12. | :06:12. | ||
will the scene graphic images of bodies and security force and now - | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
- personnel beating protesters. But it is easy to manipulate stories | :06:19. | :06:28. | |
:06:29. | :06:29. | ||
and 40. But let's look at the case of the gay girl in Damascus. That | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
was her blog title. It has become unclear whether this apparently | :06:35. | :06:45. | |
:06:45. | :06:47. | ||
brave woman actually existed. There is a? About that. She does exist. I | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
know colleagues to know her as a person. I do not know her | :06:52. | :07:02. | |
:07:02. | :07:05. | ||
personally. How do you explain that the US embassy in Damascus says | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
they have no record of her? I do not have this detail but it is not | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
in our interests to exaggerate news. We do not need to do that. The | :07:17. | :07:24. | |
facts and the figures speak for themselves. Let's talk about these | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
stories of the tortured boy. A 13- year-old boy he was involved in a | :07:30. | :07:37. | |
protest. His badly brutalised body was returned to his family later in | :07:37. | :07:47. | |
:07:47. | :07:47. | ||
May. What they asked the family to do is buried the body right away. | :07:47. | :07:54. | |
But they called someone with a video camera to tell the story. | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
This is to prevent further brutality and killings. We do not | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
need to make up anything. The regime is carrying out all for | :08:06. | :08:14. | |
crimes. But just to be clear about this, you're not denying that | :08:14. | :08:23. | |
protesters have access to some weapons? If they have access -- i | :08:23. | :08:30. | |
using weapons, do you think that is justifiable? People have the right | :08:30. | :08:37. | |
to defend themselves. But they are making a conscious decision not to | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
do that. One of the strategies of the regime is to instigate a | :08:42. | :08:52. | |
:08:52. | :08:53. | ||
violent attack on the security forces. You have dismissed the | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
notion that extremists and savage showers with help from the outside | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
are at the heart of the movement. But this is what you wrote in | :09:03. | :09:13. | |
:09:13. | :09:16. | ||
September. You said that the response of the regime at towards | :09:16. | :09:25. | |
the movement were likely to push people towards extremism. That is | :09:25. | :09:35. | |
what you wrote. Yes, but some -- things change. This revolution is a | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
continuation of the Arabs spring. We were surprised at how quickly | :09:40. | :09:50. | |
:09:50. | :09:51. | ||
the youth of Syria responded to the movement. They decided to follow | :09:51. | :10:01. | |
:10:01. | :10:02. | ||
the peaceful model. Even the Muslim Brotherhood have embraced and | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
emphasise the peaceful nature of this revolution. In Syria it is | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
important to remind people there were at clashes between the Muslim | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
Brotherhood and the regime in the 1980s. Because the Muslim | :10:17. | :10:26. | |
Brotherhood carried out violence that enabled the regime to carry | :10:27. | :10:36. | |
out violent reprisals. So the Muslim Brotherhood and more | :10:36. | :10:42. | |
extremist Islamic figures are not significant players? None of the | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
traditional political parties are very active. This is a movement | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
made up of young people here are not politicised. They are a product | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
of social media. They watched what happened in other countries and | :10:56. | :11:04. | |
decided to take things into their own hands. You are outside and | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
these people you cannot -- characterise as the heart of the | :11:09. | :11:17. | |
movement are inside. Just a few days ago you were involved in a | :11:17. | :11:27. | |
:11:27. | :11:28. | ||
meeting of dissidents and exiles of the regime in Turkey. When you put | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
together a council at 31 and talked about this being a forum for | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
national opposition how it that can be credible because you, for | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
example, a well-established in the United States and not well known in | :11:47. | :11:55. | |
Syria? All of us are in touch with colleagues inside. Before we did | :11:55. | :12:02. | |
that meeting we did some coordination. We did not want to | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
claim we carried the revolution because the inside is not ready. We | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
want the people who are leading activities on the ground to form | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
their own representative body. Once they do that we can talk to them | :12:17. | :12:26. | |
and form something more represented will -- representative. That is | :12:26. | :12:34. | |
part of the problem. The difference between in Europe. -- Egypt. In | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
Egypt it was relatively easy for people to gather together in the | :12:38. | :12:47. | |
open. That is not possibility -- possible in Syria. In Syria | :12:47. | :12:54. | |
political opposition is not allowed. There is a law that makes | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
membership of the Muslim Brotherhood punishable by death so | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
you have to find ways to be able to be active and continue to survive. | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
We took good vintage -- advantage of new media so there is contact | :13:10. | :13:17. | |
between the outside and inside. not entirely convinced by new media | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
being responsible for everything. The numbers of people who have come | :13:23. | :13:30. | |
out on the streets in Syria have numbered in the thousands, possibly | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
close to 10,000. But think about other countries where they were | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
hundreds of thousands of people on the streets. A fundamentally | :13:41. | :13:51. | |
:13:51. | :13:52. | ||
different sort of public protest. The reason is as people try to get | :13:52. | :14:01. | |
out, they am met by snipers. In Egypt, they were allowed opposition, | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
they were allowed independent media. None of that exists in Syria. | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
By it we are talking about Damascus being the most important political | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
centre in the country. We have not seen demonstrations, only | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
occasionally in the suburbs. Frankly, the capital of Syria has | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
been free of the sort of political protest you want to see. That is | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
not accurate. We have seen a substantial demonstrations in the | :14:30. | :14:38. | |
walled town of Damascus. Damascus is two provinces. The city and the | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
suburbs. Inside the town it is happening now. Each demonstrator is | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
the equivalent to 10,000 in the other cases because in the other | :14:48. | :14:55. | |
cases, they were not allowed to demonstrate. Only if you tried to | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
instigate the security forces you would be met with violence. Take | :14:59. | :15:06. | |
Egypt, the whole revolution, I mean only 300 or so in the beginning and | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
later 800 were killed. In Syria, over 1,000 have been killed and we | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
have the names of those. The dynamics are different. Why are we | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
seeing no signs of the President Assad regime splintering? We saw | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
officials distancing themselves in Tunisia and Egypt and it is not | :15:26. | :15:33. | |
happening in Syria. This is likely to happen in an advanced stage. We | :15:33. | :15:41. | |
encouraged that very much and we always appeal because we believe | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
there are patriotic people within the regime will will not approve of | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
the brutality carried out, particularly by the security forces. | :15:48. | :15:55. | |
One of those in the military. At one point, the military must make a | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
decision. Will they want to side with the President who will go down | :15:59. | :16:09. | |
:16:09. | :16:10. | ||
Ed is carrying out the last stage or will they -- support of the | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
Democratic side of Syria? But when one compares it with Egypt, you | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
have called for the President to go and do called for the vice- | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
president to take power for the transitional phase before a | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
democratic process can be organised. But will that the reality. The | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
vice-president carries no real weight at all. We all know the | :16:36. | :16:45. | |
power lays with President Assad and his family. The fact is, there is | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
no a transitional authority that would have credibility. It is more | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
challenging, you are right. But there some institutions in Syria | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
that could play a role in the transitional period. One of those | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
is the army and the other is the government. There is something | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
called a cabinet and the Prime Minister and the People's Council. | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
While they are not representative and they act like rappers -- a | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
rubber-stamp to the President's decisions but if they decide to, | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
they could play a role. It seems to be a pretty desperate statement for | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
a significant player in the opposition to say he wants the army | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
takeover given it is the same army accused of causing the deaths of | :17:26. | :17:35. | |
over 1,000 people? We believe the main pressure on the regime other | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
demonstrations. They will play the major role in overthrowing the | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
regime. What we want to do is make the transition as peaceful as | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
possible. So we are opening the way for other institutions and people | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
to join the rebels. You are in London and you are brought -- you | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
are lobbying politicians, including some in Moscow, to put more | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
pressure on Damascus and the President. Are you disappointed | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
with the international reaction? That we be positive. I want you to | :18:08. | :18:15. | |
be honest. The statement by the French Prime Minister of the day | :18:15. | :18:23. | |
before yesterday, one of the things we expect is to isolate them | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
diplomatically. We want a referral from the Security Council to the | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
ICC. We have not got a Matt. have not even got a new Security | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
Council resolution. The draft is sitting there and it seemed clear | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
that Moscow is intent on blocking it using the veto if necessary. | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
we want to everything possible to talk to them, get the information | :18:47. | :18:56. | |
to them and tell them it is in your interest to finally signed over to | :18:56. | :19:03. | |
the people. But it would only be of symbolic value anyway. They are | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
talking about condemnation of the violence they have seen and are | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
clearly gaining the authorities and demanding immediate cessation. They | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
want humanitarian authorities to be allowed in. All of that is good but | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
it will not actually address the fundamental problem you have which | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
is the President Assad regime is still strong and intent on staying | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
in power and the international community is not prepared to do | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
anything about it, unlike in Libya. But what we want to say is the | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
regime has been isolated already. There are sanctions in place. | :19:38. | :19:44. | |
they are symbolic sanctions but will not bring the regime down. | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
people of Syria will bring the regime down. This is important. We | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
do not expect to the international community to do it on our behalf | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
but we want them to take on responsibilities. In the case of | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
Libya, those countries took an early response and I believe if | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
they do take these actions now, that may prevent further killing | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
and further repression, this significance of the effort rather | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
than believing that these motions will bring down the regime. But is | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
it not true that Tony Blair put it plainly himself just hours ago, | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
that the cautious international response to the Syria situation is | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
based on a profound fear of what would come after her President | :20:31. | :20:40. | |
Assad? They say if they are sad regime -- they say if the present | :20:40. | :20:47. | |
Assad regime collapses, it would be difficult to figure out what would | :20:47. | :20:57. | |
:20:57. | :20:58. | ||
ensue? We are trying to tell the world we have a plan and strategy. | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
We know what the reality is in Syria and we see a community that | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
frankly could fall into secretarian -- strife. We look at neighbouring | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
countries like Iraq and we see Syria as a typical place in the | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
Middle East where there is a profound danger of a spiral into | :21:17. | :21:25. | |
chaos. But in the 11th week we have not seen any sign of | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
demonstrators... We have seen demonstrators emphasising national | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
unity. The first individual victims were Christians. It started in the | :21:37. | :21:46. | |
:21:47. | :21:47. | ||
areas closest to these areas. We believe the events of their 80s... | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
But there is deep concern in Washington in the EU and deep | :21:51. | :21:59. | |
concern in Israel. A respected former peace negotiated for the | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
Israelis says in foreign policy magazines that is where he's aware | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
of the alternatives in Damascus and in discussions, they have been | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
rooting for the Devil. That is their position but we want to say | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
that what will emerge is a non- Devil, a democratic system, that is | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
more representative of Syria, more responsible regional, | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
internationally and that is why it is in everybody's interest to | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
support this alternative. My second point is we are working to create | :22:35. | :22:41. | |
structures. We are talking about Syrians everywhere, civic | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
communities everywhere, coming together in a way I have never seen | :22:44. | :22:51. | |
before. All components of Syrian society. In this state, they are | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
carrying out a weekly demonstrations, collecting money to | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
help. They are all united and this is what makes us believe it will | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
happen. We are part of the whole plan in the Middle East to make it | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
a more democratic region. So we are very hopeful. I feel the positivity | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
but do you really believe it would -- you will win and bring President | :23:11. | :23:18. | |
Assad down? Absolutely. In no time in my life and the young people of | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
Syria, we talk to them, they are more optimistic. But we have seen | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
big moments before in Syria, not least around their 80s, which ended | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
in terrible bloodshed and paying for so many Syrians. We then saw | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
the Damascus Spring and we saw the declaration in fife mac and the | :23:39. | :23:45. | |
hope that they meet -- that may lead to fundamental reform. | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
weakness with the Damascus situation, they did not have mass | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
support at the time. It was more intellectual. Now it is the young | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
people in the street who are under the age of 20 and are about 60% of | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
the Syrian population who are taking to the streets. They are | :24:04. | :24:07. |