Mona Makram-Ebeid HARDtalk

The headlines: Britain's top police officer, Sir Paul Stephenson, has

resigned. He is the latest casualty in a scandal over foreign hacking

in Rupert Murdoch's newspaper group. Rebekah Brooks was arrested in

London on suspicion of phone hacking and corruption. She has

since been bailed. A large crowd of government

supporters has held a rally in the Syrian capital Damascus. It came as

Syrian forces intensified military campaign to crush the country's

uprising. 30 people have been killed in clashes.

A senior adviser to the Afghan president has been killed in an

attack on his home in Kabul. Jan Mohammad Khan was a former

provincial governor. Security forces battled gunman outside his

house after the attack. Now it is time for HARDtalk. Six

months ago, Egyptians were beginning to think the unthinkable.

In Tahrir Square demonstrators called for a new kind of politics

and eventually managed to remove the 30 year Mubarak dictatorship.

Christians hoped for greater tolerance. Women hoped for a bigger

voice. But since then churches have been attacked, women harassed and

Islamist parties say they expect a majority in the September elections.

I speak with Mona Makram-Ebeid, a politician, a feminist and a Coptic

Christian. On all three grounds, might the future be worse than the

Mubarak past? Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. I know you plan to spend

in the September elections, how many women do you think will get

elected? Will get elected? I don't really know. We have asked for the

electoral law to be changed to a proportional representation which

will give much more chance to women, to Christians and two young people

who cannot participate on their own or run on their own. Is it

practical to expect that to happen between now and September?

Absolutely. The army is discussing this. We have put pressure on them

to change the electoral law. Probably it will be. They will keep

a percentage for individuals to run on their own. We hope it would be

more than 30%-40%. The rest will be for the list. When you say we have

asked, who is that? You say you will stand, but for which party?

am debating now. I am very attracted by the new emerging

parties. I think they have a lot of and I have a lot to offer them.

They have asked me several times. What they need today is somebody

who has political experience. That is what I can offer them. I feel

enthused by the youth, their energy and dynamism. It is much more fun

and challenging to be with them than to be with traditional parties.

And yet, is it realistic to expect to be elected? Election is two once

again you haven't decided on a party. How can you take a platform

to voters without a party? I am nothing. I have run for elections

three or four times before. Pastime was in 2010 and I made it. The

government removed me. It was announced in all the newspapers and

television that I made it. I would have been the first Christian woman

in Egypt to have made it in elections. I am known in the

districts and the constituencies that are rarely in. They're both

north of Cairo. They are asking me all the time, like you, whether I

will run or not. Probably I will. Let's take one issue, the economy.

What would your platform be? What would you do to remedy the dire

statistics about Egypt's economy - for example it has been contracting

since the Arab Spring and - it is estimated that $30 billion has left

Egypt. The stock market is operating at 25% its prior peak.

Everything you say it is quite correct. This is the biggest

challenge that Egypt is facing today - the economic crisis. It has

to face it immediately and promptly. What we are scared of it is a

revolution of a hungry this time, which would be much, much worse. I

believe that the first thing to do is so CEO economic issues. To

tackle them first. -- social and economic. Wages, employment,

education and health. People must feel a sense of progress. People

must feel that there is a difference before the revolution

and after, otherwise they will be a kind of despair that takes place.

That is not what we want. To say the economy is important and jobs

are important is something that previous governments could have

said. No, they never addressed social and economic issues. These

issues are the ones that brought them down. That is why the people

revolted. The people revolted for human dignity, for social justice,

for freedom. These things were never addressed. What would you do

to address them? I would not make selective reforms as the past

government have done. They thought the priority was economic reform,

it was role. You cannot do economic reform without looking at the

political aspect and the social aspect. The social aspect is dire.

We had shinty towns where people are living in sub-human conditions.

On the other hand you have gated communities where Egypt can boast

the most wealthy people in the world. This is not a healthy

situation. This is the first situation that must be looked upon

so we don't get a revolt of a hungry and a revolt of a hungry

which will attack everyone. They will not leave any one. A last time

you actually sat in Parliament, you mentioned 2010 When you were

elected but didn't see it, you're a Member of Parliament between 1990-

1995. At that point you work elected by President Mubarak. What

makes you think they would get elected now? -- what makes you

think that he would get elected. have been in the opposition for the

past 20 years. I cannot be accused of being a supporter of the past

regime. I disliked them completely and was one of their biggest

critics, that is why I was left out of a lot of things when I could

have been their shining star. Except, as we just pointed out, you

were appointed.... Yes, that was a long time ago. About 15 years ago.

A lot of things have changed since then and become worse. Today, I am

quite well known. I particularly carry a very respected name by both

communities, whether it is Muslim or Christian. They have a lot of

respect for my family who has been in politics for the past hundred

years. I was going to ask about that - is it possible for a woman

to be prominent in politics without a family name? Without a dynasty?

You have two sorts of women. Women who have a dynasty behind them, and

this is my social capital, really, and others who are people of the

street - whose serve - the grassroots, and who are known as

such. You have both. I must admit that my name has helped me a lot.

For women from either end of that spectrum - has Tahrir Square change

the fundamentals? When Tahrir Square started and I would say that

more than half of the people there were women. Women who chanted, who

cried, who cared for the injured, who were enthusiastic, dynamic. I

spent eight days with them and I know that the women were in great

numbers. Also after that in the referendum in March they

outnumbered men for their political participation. Now what happened

after until now was an incomprehensible marginalisation of

women. The idea that women can wait until we get away civilian

government, then women and workers and so on could present the demands

and aspirations, which is totally role. Two weeks ago we had an

enormous conference of about 20 women and N G 0s. We ask that we

should have an independent Federation for women today. We

refuse to continue with the National Council for women, which

was a state sponsor and organisation. It sounds like you

have changed your opinion. In April he said you had an excellent Prime

Minister, very well attuned to women's rights. He hasn't done much

now, but I know that he hears. It is important for women to assert

their rights, particularly in the area of political participation,

employment.... No, No. I am not contradicting myself. I admire the

Prime Minister. He has brought us in twice or three times to discuss

why, and we told him why. He listens. Nothing has been done

until now, but I know that he has his heart in the right place.

Social justice - whether it is for women's aspirations war for

Christian' demands. He listened and he agreed. I think the task is

enormous for him now. I think that he will take into consideration the

last recommendations we had in the meeting out of these in G Os -

feminist in G Os. You say he listens, but there were no women on

the committee drafting the constitutional amendments. That

could have been an opportunity. This was the army who decided on

who was in this committee of the amendments. No party was

represented, only the Muslim Brotherhood were represented, no

women were there. We were quite upset at both issues. What happened

is that when the army came they came unexpectedly, almost never

expected it. It was unthinkable, what happened. The only movement

they saw was the Muslim Brotherhood. They were the only ones who could

mobilise. They were the interlocutors. They ask that they

could be on the committee, that they are prisoners could be

released. The suspicion is today that they are in tandem, the Muslim

Brotherhood and the army. I do not believe this. You believe it was

because they wore organised? It was because they didn't find any one -

the other parties were week, almost non-existent. They were not in

Tahrir Square. The young ones were too young. The only organised once

they found were the Muslim Brotherhood. That is what gives

them, you know, this cloud today, his popularity. At tried to tap

into this popularity to have the elections first. Which comes back

to the question about whether women are sufficiently organised at this

point in July for elections in two months time. And it ties in, to a

big issue - the Mubarak regime was obviously secular, it was committed

to keeping his lists in check. It was also committed to protecting

women's rights. Some degree of positive discrimination. Keeping

his lists in a cheque is not to repress them and harassment put

them in prison. -- Islamists. That is exactly what gave them this

enormous popularity which was almost a mystique. They were

repressed and a press and harassed and imprisoned. As for women - I

don't think much has been done for women. I don't deny that some

things were made for women, but not really. The 64 seats that were

allotted two women were taken by someone else. This is not really a

way of empowering women. So it was tokenism? It was tokenism, of

course it was. The National Council for women really did nothing, they

belonged to the governing party. will come back to the question of

Islamism in a moment. Coming back to the question of women and the

election - there is one female presidential candidate, the first

woman to run for President. A 49- year-old presidential candidate.

She says she is not just a candidate for women, she runs for

all of Egypt. What do you think the prospects are? None. At least she

sets a precedent. It is wonderful and I have great admiration for her.

They ask me to do the same thing but I didn't have the courage to..

Why not? I am in great admiration of her, because you must set a

precedent. The mentality of Egyptians to be accustomed to the

idea that it is not a taboo that a woman could run for President. Even

a Christian woman. Why did you not have the courage? Because I didn't

have the courage. I don't want to be a kamikazes. A kamikaze? Yes, I

don't have it. To run for President, that's it. Too much exposure and,

You are one of the only female judges on the country. The other, I

would love to see as president. said she's not afraid of more

freedom. "It's only natural after decades of repression for all sorts

of political and cultural forces to rise to the surface now. Some of

those will be against human rights and a secular state." And against

women. OK? Yes, I agree with her entirely. That was the topic of my

talk when I spoke a few days ago at the House of Lords. I said that it

is only natural that all these parties or people or - even the

sell-fests - you never heard about them - who were suppressed, they

find it exhilarating now to participate, but also to challenge

everyone, and to frighten everyone. So, I know that they don't have it

in their framework great respect for human rights, or for women, or

for a secular state. But, you know, they are trying - they know the

Egyptian - the Egyptian is a moderate. Whether it's a Muslim or

a Christian, Egyptian Muslims are, in the majority, moderate. They do

not want to be ruled by clerics. They do not want to have a

theocracy. That is for sure. That's why, now, the Islamist parties are

trying to put on a liberal face - not to frighten people - as you

know, the new party - what is it called, the Justice and Freedom

Party of the Muslim Brothers? They also have a vice-president. It's a

joke, but it doesn't matter. We'll come back to that in a moment. Just

on the question of people who are trying to frighten other people -

going back to where we started six months ago - women sleeping quite

safely alongside men in makeshift tents in Tahrir Square -

LAUGHS But, in that case, no harassment,

no threats of physical violence. It was an equal-opportunities

demonstration, as we've discussed. And yet, by March, already, a

woman's protest was attacked by a group of men, telling them to "Go

home where they belonged," in their words. The women complaining

afterwards that they were sexually harassed, beaten, and even

threatened with knives. Are there grounds for being scared if you're

a woman in Egypt today? If you're an activist woman, you don't feel

very safe. And this is a pity, because today, we - as women -

wanted to tour around upper Egypt and the countryside, and the

villages - in order to raise the awareness of people of what it is

this new era we're entering into. But, you know, it's not very safe

today to go around. That's why we have asked NGOs to bring assistance

to women to tour around the countryside and to be visible and,

you know, to say we are there. not just women, is it? It's because

of the lack of security. It's not the lack of - it's not anything

against women that is new, but it is the lack of security today that

holds back a lot of women from being more active at the grassroots

level and more active in propagating or raising the

awareness and so on. But this is temporary. I can tell you this, and

I can tell you that, in the next election, a lot of women will

participate. And many of them from the youth who participated in

Tahrir Square. We ought to give some attention to the question of

religious tolerance as well. Some of the same patterns seem to apply,

some of the same insecurities. We mentioned, again, at the top,

Muslims and Christians praying alongside each other in Tahrir

Square. That was the most admirable sight that I have ever seen in my

life, what I saw in Tahrir Square between the two communities.

yet, within weeks, more attacks on churches, like we saw in May, most

notably, a Cairo churched, burned, -- looted, burned - 15 people

killed 2,00 injured. Some the authorities be doing more to

prevent that kind of attack and provide security? Yes. Absolutely -

they must have a deterrent, they must be more forceful in the

punishment, and they must make examples of some of these thugs.

Because it is thugs, really, who are perpetrating these incidents.

You don't seize sea these thugs as related to the political process?

Of course they are related. They might be tied to the old regime,

because the old regime still has its loyalist supporters who would

very much like to see that the revolution fails. And that this was

all, you know, just a temporary thing and everything will come back.

Now, you have these, and you have the state security police that has

not been dismantled. So there hasn't been enough change, and that

is why the people keep on going through Tahrir - because they are

demanding that those who are responsible for killing the

demonstrators should be brought to justice, and immediately. They're

also asking for all the state security policemen, who are also

culprits and who are released. you don't see this as part of the

new political parties? To quote quote a Coptic analyst, "There's no

doubt the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salahis are in cahoots. They

want to make it into an Islamic state. Lots of people are worried.

If Egypt becomans Islamist state, it means civil war." He's right.

He's a bit radical. But he's right. The Christians are, you know, - I

can't it elyou, they are so fierceful about everything that is

happening. One of them had his ear chopped because he inrent -- he

rented a house to a prostitute. The others saw, by themselve, some

liquor stores being attacked and the threats of the cell Salahiss

that any unveiled woman - they will throw acid on them. It's not a very

comfortable situation either for the Christians, women, or the

mothers of all Muslims. The muslm Brotherhood is suggesting its

parties may now win not just 20%, as they claimed in February, but

they could win 50% in September. They keep changing their minds.

They have a forked dialogue. They can say things here and the other

here. It's a pity because, as a political party, we were very happy

that they were included in the political arena. I think the

biggest mistake that was done by the past government was to harass

them them and to do all this. I believe that once they are included

in the political arena, they will lose this mystique. It's going to

add to demystifying them. They will have to suggest programs - they

have to be accountable. They have to be transparent, and so on -

things that they are not used to. They had one opponent which was the

government party. So is their opponent today. Do you believe the

reassurance, for example, of Rafiq Habib, vice-president of their new

Freedom and Justice Party, a well- known Coptic party? He says the new

party has nearly 100 cops and nearly 1,000 women among its

founding members. So? Reassuring? Not at all, but it's a gesture, as

I say said. They're trying to put on a liberal face so as to reduce

the fear and the scare of them. I don't think people should be scared

of them. If they make it in a democratic way, fine. But what is

the most important thing today is that the constitution should

guarantee the lack of discrimination, the equal treatment

of women, the equal treatment of Christians - none of these want to

be looked upon as second-class citizens. As I told you, moderate

Muslims do not want to be ruled by clerics, by no means, no matter how

religious. People in Egypt are very religious, whether it is the

Muslims or the Christians. They're very religious. I don't think that

they would like to be ruled by clerics. And yet that constitution

will emerge from a committee which is elected by the new House of

Representatives of the Muslim Brotherhood parties have a majority

on that, they have a big say. That's why, seeing the danger of

all that, many people are worried and concerned, and I was one of

them, in the groups that proposed something very similar to the Magna

Carta or to the Bill of Rights, meaning that we want to have a sort

of guarantee before the elections, which guarantees, also, some

freedoms, and will protect the civic aspects of the society.

yet as at this point in July, you haven't got those - This has been

presented by the Sheikh, who has a lot of credibility and is highly

respected, with some intellectuals around him. It has been respected

by the Nobel Prize and presidential candidate Baradai, and by other

groups, of whom I belong to one of them - the National Egyptian

Council. Mona Makram-Ebeid, there we have to leave it. Thanks for

Hello. It really didn't feel like Ju Jure this weekend. But

the weather's not really changing much for the rest of this week.

Expect it to stay rather cool and rather showery. Big lump of cloud,

but all the rain on Saturday swirling back around it. We've seen

a whole host of showers over the past 48 hours. Some strong breezes,

too, and it's still going to be pretty blustery along the south

coast of England in particular during the day today. So expect it

to be breezy, expect it to feel chilly out there, and yes, expect

more in the way of rain. Particularly dull and damp first

thing across parts of Northern Ireland. A soggy Monday morning,

especially along the north and the east coast. Some of this rain also

affecting south-west Scotland. A pretty dismal Monday morning across

much of north-west England. A lot of cloud here, and outbreaks of

rain. Across Wales, too, it will be dull and there'll be further rain,

particularly around the coast here, it will again be breezy. The winds

not as strong as they were on Sunday, but nevertheless, there'll

definitely be note -- they'll definitely be noticeable, making it

chilly across parts of the south. Brighter spells and sunshine in the

south and north. A whole host of showers also, some of which are

likely to be quite lively, with the risk of thunder once more. The

winds will be lighter across western Scotland. Here, it should

actually be a much drier day, with sunny spells. Elsewhere across

Scotland, slow-moving, heavy, thundery downpours, as there will

be across parts of northern England. Grey across the north-west of

England, through parts of Lincolnshire. Further south, there

will be brighter spells and sunshine. That breeze will chase in

showers once more. Showers will again be heavy, and possibly

thundery. As I said, the winds across parts of the south maybe not

as strong as they were on Sunday, but it will still feel cool in the

breeze. Temperatures will struggle. High teens at best. Those

temperatures fall by a few degrees when the showers come along. We're

not done with the showers by Tuesday, either. That big swirl of

cloud we saw earlier tied in with an area of low pressure, which

slowly edges out into the North Sea on Tuesday. It does mean that,

further away from the low, parts of the west may not see as many

showers on Tuesday. A chance of it being drier and brighter for

Northern Ireland and Wales. Elsewhere, there will be showers,

and temperatures again - 20 at the very best. For most of the day, it

will be stuck in the teens. Not getting any warmer, either. By

Wednesday, we've still got a swirl from a weather front and another

one perhaps threatening parts of the south to complicate matters.

Expect it to be cloudy. Expect there to be outbreaks of rain.

Don't expect temperatures to be too spectacular. Again, showers around