William Caldwell, Commander, NATO Training Mission - Afghanistan HARDtalk


William Caldwell, Commander, NATO Training Mission - Afghanistan

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Now it is time for HARDtalk. In July, a fifth of Afghanistan was

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handed over to the control of Afghan security forces. All western

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combat troops leave by 2014. Yet the Taliban are getting bolder in

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their attacks. The first six months of 2011 were the deadliest for

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Afghan civilians since the war began 10 years ago. I talk to US

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Lieutenant-General William Caldwell who is tasked with training Afghan

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soldiers and police. Most can't even read or write and corruption

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and disloyalty is rife. Does he believe western nations are

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withdrawing combat troops too soon - risking a return of Taliban

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control? General William Caldwell in Kabul,

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welcome to HARDtalk. The violence is getting worse in Afghanistan.

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Our Afghan forces up to the job? Having been on the ground here for

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almost two years now, I think they are. They are continuing to improve.

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Air quality gets better all the time. Air force is still growing.

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By December 2014, when they need to take the lead, our assessment is

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that they will be ready. When you took over this job as NATO's head

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of training in 2009, you were widely reported as saying that you

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were horrified by what you saw. That is correct. In fact a life

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find that many people's perceptions exist from that time period. We

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found that the police were underpaid, they were poorly led.

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They were illiterate. They didn't have the proper equipment. What we

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found was a force that was untrained. There were significant

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challenges that existed in autumn of 2009. In the army we found the

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exact same things. The US vice- president, Joe Biden, says the

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training of the Afghan army is painfully slow and difficult. Is he

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right? What I would say is we want the training to be enduring. What

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we did in the first 18 months here it is we develop 100,000 new

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security forces for Afghanistan. They are out today serving their

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country. Now we are developing their systems. Their maintenance,

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logistics. The second part is a training leaders and training them

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really takes time. This is a time- consuming process - it doesn't

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happen overnight. Joe Biden is right? It is a time-consuming

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process. Are you comfortable with the fact that we have seen one

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fifth of the country now looking to Afghan forces for their security?

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No, in fact I am, and more importantly, the Afghans are - they

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are eager to take on the lead for security. It doesn't mean coalition

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forces have gone all we are not here to support them as required,

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it means row making the decisions that their forces will be the first

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to respond. -- it means they are making the decisions. I understand

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that Western forces are still there in a supporting role. However, you

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are putting the Afghan forces in control. My question is this -

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those Afghan forces - are they adequately trained, in your

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opinion? Are back up to it? -- are they up to it? They are. The police

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and army forces are vastly different to what they were two

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years ago. There has been significant progress. I was just

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out in large Kashgar last month and I found that the police forces

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there, from one year ago to now, they have been upgraded. They are

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better equipped, better trained. We have been able to provide more

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leaders, Junior leaders for them who didn't exist a year ago. There

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are those people who study Afghanistan very closely and know

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the country well. The International Crisis Group, for instance. They

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have carried out a study this here and they say that there is a danger

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of moving too quickly on training. You won't have the cohesiveness,

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the loyalty or the infrastructure to support those soldiers and

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police. She says there is domestic pressure to wrap this up and get it

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done so it becomes easy to rush. Are you being rushed in any way

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that you are having to train as quickly as possible? I can tell you

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- I don't feel any pressure to rush. My civilian boss - the NATO

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Secretary General has been very clear - he sees at the NATO

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training mission in during here beyond 2014. What I understand is

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that we have to put in place, by 2014, capable Afghan army and

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security police forces who can take control of the country. There will

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be challenging, I do want to downplay them, but as I have

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watched what has happened over the last two years - I am confident --

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I do not want to. What happens if they are not ready by 2014? They

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will be. It is a great hypothetical question, but... If I could

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interrupt - it is not a hypothetical question. When you

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hear the British Prime Minister talking about UK involvement he

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says it will finish by the end of 2014 regardless of what is going on.

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The deadline is a deadline and it won't slip. Suppose for the sake of

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argument goes troops are not ready - there is David Cameron saying

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that the deadline is the deadline. I think what your Prime Minister

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also said is that he is committed to the training effort. Very

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recently, in the last couple of months, he made an announcement and

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said that they are going to provide training to help stand up the

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Afghan officer academy here that will be modelled after Sandhurst.

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We call at Sandhurst in the sand over here. It will train about

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1,200 young Afghan officers every year. The commitment to that, as he

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stated publicly, goes until 2023. I think there is a commitment on his

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behalf to see the training mission through. I think everybody

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understands that combat forces, the lead effort and the fighting itself,

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it has to be turned over to the Afghans. I am comfortable that,

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with the progress we have made, the path we are on, they will have the

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ability to take the lead for security. What do you say about

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other military figures who, perhaps, but as confident as you - for

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instance, the former chief of the Defence Staff here in the United

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Kingdom. He said in June - the concern I have is about the date -

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it seems to be more closely related to political and electoral

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timescales than it does to a safe handover to Afghan forces. You know

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that sentiment is expressed by some military people - what you say to

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them? I find in a lot of cases - I hear that, and I try to understand

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when the last time they were here on the ground. When did they get

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their last experience out here? That perspective is very important.

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Two years ago, if you were to ask me this exact same question I would

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say there was no way they would be able to do it. After two years I

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see the growing ability of their forces. Again, I don't mean to

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downplay it, there will be challengers out there for us. We

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will have setbacks on the way. -- challenges. If the Afghan

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leadership continues to support us the way they have, they will set

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themselves up to do this. Are you worried? Because you said it if

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people stay engaged. That is quite an if, isn't it? You look at

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President Obama pushing for a fast withdrawal, you look at polls that

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say the American public on to see the end of the war because it is so

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expensive and everybody has a huge debt in so many countries. It is

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possible, isn't it, that the commitment you're talking about now

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to see the training programme through until 2023 may actually

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slipped? Your training budget in 2010 was $12 billion. People might

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say that they don't have that kind of money any more. Today in this

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command we have 33 different nations involved as part of the

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NATO training effort here. We have about 2000 trainers with another

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600 inbound. I am not seeing, within this grip... By December we

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will have an additional 800 Canadians as a part of this effort.

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What I am more concerned about is how rapidly we may draw back from

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the combat role. In the training side I think there is an

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understanding that the only way we'll get out of the situation is

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to train our way out of it. The commitment to the training is very

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real. I will clarify that - New Abbey you have people's support on

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the training mission. -- you are confident. You are worried about a

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too rapid withdrawal from combat? The way it is currently set I am

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comfortable with. We have looked at this - different nations have made

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decisions. The key will be everyone moving together. All the

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international nations who are here with combat forces having a

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discussion. This is so we don't precipitously pull out of one area

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or another without co-ordinating with the NATO effort. So on

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training - how long do you think NATO is involved bilaterally - how

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long does it have to remain in Afghanistan to train the forces

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they? -- for the forces there. think we would finish training the

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Air Force until 2016. We all the trainers on the ground throughout

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that time period. As far as the army and the police force goes,

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there will be a need - one of the things we have worked hard to do is

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build systems and institutions. Those are the type of things that I

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would like to see trainers remaining engaged in for several

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more years. Does take time to teach people to use a medical system or a

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maintenance system or a supply system. How to run an institution

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such as a school or academy. Thousands of Western troops could

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remain in Afghanistan for, how long? Decades? I would not say

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decades. One of the key things we're doing now is training against

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to become the primary trainers. December 2012 -- training Afghan us.

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We are starting a certification training programme for them. We are

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building the army and police. We are also starting to train the

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trainers. They will take on the commitment to make it an enduring

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and self-sustaining capability. You're still not giving me a

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specific year, but perhaps you do not feel inclined to do that.

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a fair question and what I would tell you is that by 2014 we should

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see probably the training mission reduced to about half the size of

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what it is today. We would take it from about 5,000 military and

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police professionals down to about 2000-3,000. They could stay another

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decade here inside Afghanistan. Ultimately, it would be an Afghan

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decision. Let's look at the training that you are in charge.

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There are currently something like 159,000 Afghan soldiers, about

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125,000 Afghan police. The target is, what? About 300,000? Is that

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right? You are about right. Today we have 302,000 Afghan army and

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police combined. The army is at about 171,000 and the police is at

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about 131,000. Our goal was, by this October, to be at 305,000.

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have been training them, but most of the recruits are illiterate, but

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they? They can't even read the serial numbers on arrival, for

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instance? That is one thing that shocked me. I didn't think it was

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something I should have to do is a military professional, but I

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recognised very quickly that if we were going to make this an enduring

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army of police officers, we would have to teach them literacy. We

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took it on. We test every new recruits coming in. Only one in ten

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can even write their name. 90% are absolutely illiterate. They can't

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read the serial number on their weapons. We now higher almost 3,000

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Afghan teachers who run full-time literacy courses throughout all of

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our training programmes. In some cases it is full-time school for

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soldiers and police. We have made a real effort to raise that up. What

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I can tell you is that there is a ceremony here just recently - we

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just passed the 100,000 mark of young men who came in absolutely

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illiterate but now have some level of literacy that they did not have

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before they joined the Army or the police. What made you change your

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mind? Are enthusiastic about what you do? When the late Richard

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Holbrooke said he would have to do something about these illiterate

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recruits, you said - I am a military man, I don't do literacy,

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I don't do nation-building. Did you just have to obey orders? Did you

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do we reluctantly? Do you now. With joy? I actually now. With

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tremendous enthusiasm. I consider myself one of the premier literacy

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teachers in this country. What really made me a believer - and

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again, Richard Holbrooke and I became very good friends before his

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untimely death, he came back here periodically. After about two locks

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on the ground I went back to him and said - you are exactly right. -

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- two months. We have to take on literacy. In the West we hadn't

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Afghan unit that was well trained and had gone out on an operation

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without coalition forces. A small unit of about 30 young Afghan men.

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They got into a firefight. They needed to call in medical

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helicopters to come and pick up the wounded. When they called back -

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because they know how to operate the radios - and asked for help,

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they were asked about their location. None of them could read a

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map. They had never learned how to read a map. A basic skill that

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soldiers have to have. They were unable to do it because they were

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all illiterate and disorganised. That is what helped to transform

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your ideas. You have other challenges as well. Would that

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desertion. Didn't you say that out of 110,000 recruits of last year

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only 70,000 exist. You do Pedy has talked about soldiers going back to

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do the harvesting. -- your deputy. What we do find, again this goes

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back to what we see as our number one priority, it is developing

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leaders. There are cases, enough of them to make a significant

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difference at times, where a young men have not been able to take

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leave to go home so they do with independently. The minister of

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defence will be the first to tell you that in any month around 2,000,

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3,000 come back and want to continue serving. In the absence of

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being allowed to delete in a formal manner they just take off. -- been

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able to do it. What you will tell me is what? It has not hindered our

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ability to keep growing the army. We have an overwhelming number of

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recruits that want to come in every month. All right but you are

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worried about, you can't trust the figures. When you say you have this

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many, but you don't know how many are on the farm, which are serving.

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Their numbers are always a challenge and that is why it is

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very important that the coalition forces work with the Afghan forces

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to reconcile that. We are doing a 100% inventory of every soldier in

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the Afghan army. A 100% re verification of who is there,

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serving in a position. I would like to run and quickly to some of the

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other challenges you face. You get in for traitors, something like 50

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Western troops have been killed by people who have turned against them.

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:21:01.:21:04.

-- you get in full -- people who infiltrate. We call it the inside

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threat. We have analysed the situation is in the last five years

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where it has occurred and the vast majority have been associated with

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combat stress and associations. We have an eight step vetting process

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which has worked pretty well. If they are attempting to come in

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through the training system we are able to weave them out pretty well.

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That is part of the 1,000 we turned down every month. We have

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established Counter Intelligence personnel who look for someone with

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erratic behaviour, something unusual. Briefly on corruption you

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have also got problems with heroin addicts are monks the police force.

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What do you do about corruption? Corruption obviously is an issue

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here. As I tried to put it in perspective, that is why we need to

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tell them what right looks like in terms of integrity, leadership.

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They went through 30 years of civil war, not having anything. They have

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developed a culture where you need to take care of yourself first

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before others. Through training programmes, and by example if we

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are trying to instil in them the idea of service to others. There is

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a great thing in Sandhurst that talks about the need to lead. It is

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the same thing we are trying to instil today. You have made it

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clear that there is going to be a Western presence for some time.

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When the Afghans are totally in control of their own security is

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there not a real possibility that the Taliban would re-emerge, retake

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the country? I can tell you from the Afghans that I work with every

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single day of the week, and I travel around the country every

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week, go to 70 different training site, there is no Afghans that I

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have met with yet that really want to have the time ran around. --

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that really want the Taliban around. They are not trying to build

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something up for the people, they take it away from them. General

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William Caldwell in Kabul, thank you very much for coming on

:24:02.:24:12.
:24:12.:24:41.

This is Sport Today. Coming up on the programme: Brilliant in

:24:41.:24:46.

Budapest. The McLaren driver wins the Hungarian Grand Prix.

:24:46.:24:52.

Yani Tseng picks up number five at the Women's British Open.

:24:52.:24:57.

Another great champion finally gets the winning feeling again. Serena

:24:57.:25:05.

Williams dances with delight. Hello again. The Jenson Button

:25:05.:25:12.

marks his 200th race with the Hungarian Grand Prix. He mastered

:25:12.:25:17.

the wet conditions to claim his second win of the season. It was a

:25:17.:25:21.

different story for Lewis Hamilton who suffered a drive-through

:25:21.:25:29.

penalty and finished in number four. Sebastian Vettel came in second.

:25:29.:25:37.

His 200th Formula One race. Very few drivers have more experience on

:25:37.:25:43.

the wheel. It served him well. He won his first Grand Prix in Hungary

:25:43.:25:51.

five years ago. Most importantly, both McLarens were capturing

:25:51.:25:56.

Sebastian Vettel. Hamilton passed first. Jenson Button came in early

:25:57.:26:04.

for the pit stop and use the fresh tyres to ease past the Red Bull.

:26:04.:26:09.

There was a long way to go under a changing skies. Hamilton was

:26:09.:26:16.

feeling the heat with Jenson Button catching him. He spun his car and

:26:16.:26:24.

almost caused an accident. The stewards you of that would -- and

:26:24.:26:29.

the steward's view of that would almost cost him the race. Until the

:26:29.:26:34.

punishment was handed down for the spin, brother Nick watched Hamilton

:26:34.:26:42.

take through his drive in penalty. It may be an important win for a

:26:42.:26:48.

Jenson Button. McLaren will have to be just as dominant in the second

:26:48.:26:52.

half of the season as Red Bull have been in the first. Sebastian Vettel

:26:52.:27:00.

has stretched his championship lead. At the age of 22 most golfers are

:27:00.:27:06.

finding their way in the game. On Sunday Yani Tseng won her fifth

:27:06.:27:13.

major title. She used the youngest star to achieve that feat. The

:27:13.:27:18.

final round 69 was good enough for the world number one to win the

:27:18.:27:24.

tournament by four shots. Skull and's Katrina Matthew was the best-

:27:24.:27:34.
:27:34.:27:35.

placed Briton. -- Scotland's. enjoy the crowd today. So many

:27:35.:27:39.

players making history on this golf course. It is my honoured to win

:27:39.:27:44.

the British Open again. I am learning from mistakes and have

:27:44.:27:49.

been through it all here and throughout this year the memento, I

:27:49.:27:54.

have got a great attitude and feel very happy.

:27:54.:27:58.

Serena Williams has won her first title since Wimbledon in June of

:27:58.:28:08.
:28:08.:28:11.

last year. She beat Marion Bartoli. She only recently returned to

:28:11.:28:19.

tennis after 12 months out due to injury. She won straight sets. She

:28:19.:28:24.

has fallen to 169 in the world ranking and this should see her

:28:24.:28:30.

back into the top 80. She says she is far from finished. I feel I am

:28:31.:28:35.

really good. I am happy to walk away with the wind. I have not won

:28:35.:28:41.

a tournament in a while. I am not finished. I do not feel I am

:28:41.:28:46.

finished by any means. I have to dust my shoulders off and keep

:28:46.:28:50.

pushing. The day three of the second Test at

:28:50.:28:55.

Trent Bridge will be remembered for a bizarre incident in the afternoon.

:28:55.:29:05.

It is the hosts to have the upper hand on day four. A lead of 374

:29:05.:29:13.

runs from England. Ian Bell was the staff. Back to the incident in

:29:13.:29:18.

question, Ian Bell was out for 137 after he believed a shot from

:29:18.:29:27.

Morgan had gone for four. In fact it had not. The bails were taken

:29:27.:29:31.

off but Ian Bell returned after the break following a sporting gesture

:29:31.:29:38.

from MS Dhoni who decided to withdraw his side's appeal.

:29:38.:29:43.

The Barcelona had a new superstar in one of their shirts in

:29:43.:29:48.

Washington DC on Sunday but the likes of Real Madrid and Manchester

:29:48.:29:52.

City should not be worried because this player is better with a ball

:29:52.:29:59.

in his hands and not his feet. Kobe Bryant took part in a celebrity

:29:59.:30:07.

match but should probably stick to the day job, maybe ditch the

:30:07.:30:16.

sunglasses. He was finding it hard to find the net. Kobe Bryant is

:30:16.:30:20.

sweating on what he will do in the coming months with the NBA lock-out

:30:20.:30:29.

pally in force. One thing for prepared is for sure - he will not

:30:29.:30:39.
:30:39.:30:45.

Some pretty hot weather coming our way over the next few days and we

:30:45.:30:49.

will see thunderstorms developing around the middle of the week. That

:30:49.:30:59.
:30:59.:30:59.

is still some way off. Most of us will be dry. Pretty warm, too. More

:30:59.:31:02.

cloud further west with some dampness across Northern Ireland,

:31:02.:31:12.

Scotland, the western fringes of Wales. For south-west England, West

:31:12.:31:17.

Wales, limited brightness. Further east it will brighten up for a term

:31:17.:31:27.
:31:27.:31:28.

during a day. For Scotland, a good deal of cloud. Having said that,

:31:28.:31:32.

largely dry across the east. At nine o'clock in the morning a lot

:31:32.:31:40.

of dry weather across northern England. Reasonable as a start to

:31:40.:31:46.

the day. The highest of the temperatures in the Midlands, the

:31:46.:31:55.

south-east. Across the south-west of England, limited Brian has. --

:31:55.:32:02.

there will be limited brightness. There is every chance that the

:32:02.:32:07.

cloud will break across parts of Somerset, Gloucestershire, the east

:32:07.:32:17.
:32:17.:32:21.

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