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Now on BBC News, HARDtalk. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:11 | |
My guest says it started
as a joke, a fantasy he had. | 0:00:11 | 0:00:15 | |
That he, a transvestite potter,
would have an exhibition among | 0:00:15 | 0:00:18 | |
the ancient treasures
of the British Museum. | 0:00:18 | 0:00:23 | |
But that is exactly what he did. | 0:00:24 | 0:00:27 | |
Grayson Perry, welcome to HARDtalk. | 0:00:28 | 0:00:29 | |
Grayson Perry, welcome to HARDtalk. | 0:00:43 | 0:01:00 | |
It is a very unlikely mix of modern
art at the British museum. | 0:01:00 | 0:01:04 | |
Why did you want to do it? | 0:01:04 | 0:01:06 | |
I had a track record
of doing exhibitions here. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:08 | |
It is quite sporadic. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:11 | |
A predecessor in 1985
exhibitions, which he did | 0:01:11 | 0:01:14 | |
with a collection at the Museum
of Mankind, which I saw | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
as a recent graduate. | 0:01:17 | 0:01:18 | |
So I knew that such
things were possible. | 0:01:18 | 0:01:20 | |
The proposal was that you had
The Tomb of the Unknown Craftsman. | 0:01:20 | 0:01:23 | |
Yes. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:25 | |
The idea was, it was going to be
a mixture of my work, | 0:01:25 | 0:01:28 | |
as a representative of a fantasy
civilisation, one I had in my head, | 0:01:28 | 0:01:32 | |
and a celebration of the anonymous
craftsmen throughout history. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:45 | |
Of course that was a poignant thing. | 0:01:45 | 0:01:49 | |
I did not realise until I finished
that one of the most interesting | 0:01:49 | 0:02:03 | |
thing about the title
is that it is a counterpart | 0:02:03 | 0:02:05 | |
to the world where I come from,
where the identity of the maker | 0:02:05 | 0:02:09 | |
is the most significant thing. | 0:02:09 | 0:02:10 | |
It could be any old piece of tat
but when it has a name applied | 0:02:10 | 0:02:14 | |
to it, it becomes valuable. | 0:02:14 | 0:02:16 | |
A Leonardo da Vinci or Damien Hirst
is only worth a huge amount of money | 0:02:16 | 0:02:20 | |
if they it's been
confirmed they made it. | 0:02:20 | 0:02:22 | |
Most of the things in this
exhibition, we do not know | 0:02:22 | 0:02:25 | |
who made them. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:27 | |
I read you wore your magic robe
whenever you went to the museum? | 0:02:27 | 0:02:33 | |
There is an internal logic
about my own civilisation. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:45 | |
I am mischievous about it. I am
playing with it. | 0:02:45 | 0:02:48 | |
The idea that I have my teddy bear
as the God of my civilisation. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:52 | |
At first, it was just quite funny. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:54 | |
Quickly, I realised it had legs. | 0:02:54 | 0:02:55 | |
It could run. | 0:02:56 | 0:02:57 | |
You chose things you liked? | 0:02:57 | 0:02:59 | |
Yes. | 0:02:59 | 0:03:02 | |
That is not a trivial
thing, what you like. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:05 | |
People would dismiss it... | 0:03:05 | 0:03:16 | |
Why I was given the opportunity
was because of who I am, | 0:03:16 | 0:03:19 | |
I am a professional intuiter. | 0:03:19 | 0:03:21 | |
You were alongside
experts in the museum. | 0:03:21 | 0:03:26 | |
That must be a strange business.
Here you are, a professional Intuit | 0:03:26 | 0:03:40 | |
and asking them to explain objects
to you. | 0:03:40 | 0:03:49 | |
How did they respond? | 0:03:49 | 0:03:50 | |
Brilliantly. | 0:03:51 | 0:03:51 | |
They are interested
in showing their stuff. | 0:03:52 | 0:03:53 | |
An opportunity to dig in the nether
regions of the collection | 0:03:53 | 0:03:56 | |
was lovely for them. | 0:03:56 | 0:03:57 | |
You ended up with 170
objects from the museum. | 0:03:57 | 0:04:00 | |
There were 30 of your
own pieces of art. | 0:04:00 | 0:04:02 | |
One of the first things you see
when you come into the exhibition, | 0:04:02 | 0:04:12 | |
is the line 'Do not look too
hard for meaning here'. | 0:04:12 | 0:04:15 | |
Do you mean that? | 0:04:15 | 0:04:16 | |
What I mean is, people are allowed
to make up their own mind. | 0:04:16 | 0:04:19 | |
Sometimes this huge institution
is a generator of meaning, | 0:04:19 | 0:04:32 | |
something that it looks
for all the time. | 0:04:32 | 0:04:34 | |
The experts want to interpret
everything, and give | 0:04:35 | 0:04:37 | |
very detailed labels. | 0:04:37 | 0:04:38 | |
I was aware of that,
going around with the curators. | 0:04:38 | 0:04:40 | |
They live or die by the accuracy
of the information. | 0:04:40 | 0:04:43 | |
Or the agreed accuracy of the
information. | 0:04:43 | 0:04:45 | |
Even the meanings they put
to things are often guesses, | 0:04:45 | 0:04:47 | |
or fluid, or their projections. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:53 | |
Modern projections onto the past... | 0:04:53 | 0:04:56 | |
"That's because of that". | 0:04:56 | 0:04:58 | |
But it might be rubbish. | 0:04:58 | 0:04:59 | |
What I want people to do
is scrutinise the information | 0:04:59 | 0:05:02 | |
in the show and make
their own connections. | 0:05:02 | 0:05:05 | |
I hope people feel inspired to make
a version of my own show. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:09 | |
If only in their heads. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:11 | |
Could anyone have done this, then? | 0:05:11 | 0:05:13 | |
No! | 0:05:13 | 0:05:13 | |
I am a professional artist. | 0:05:13 | 0:05:15 | |
I have been working
at this for 30 years. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:20 | |
Do not knock back. | 0:05:21 | 0:05:32 | |
Modern art is not a con, | 0:05:32 | 0:05:33 | |
I've been working hard for it! | 0:05:33 | 0:05:35 | |
Have some respect! | 0:05:35 | 0:05:36 | |
The first pot, when you walk
into this exhibition, | 0:05:36 | 0:05:38 | |
has various quotes on it. | 0:05:38 | 0:05:44 | |
Things like, "I just want to satisfy
myself that I am more clever | 0:05:44 | 0:05:52 | |
than the celebrity charlatan." | 0:05:52 | 0:05:59 | |
It is like you are immediately
engaging with people's skepticism. | 0:05:59 | 0:06:02 | |
I want them to park their prejudice. | 0:06:02 | 0:06:04 | |
The art world gets very fed up. | 0:06:05 | 0:06:06 | |
Sometimes the media is justified. | 0:06:06 | 0:06:09 | |
I am the worst audience
of contemporary art. | 0:06:09 | 0:06:13 | |
The contemporary art world gets very
bored with the prejudices | 0:06:14 | 0:06:16 | |
that the media has. | 0:06:16 | 0:06:21 | |
They have a stock line
about it being shocking, | 0:06:21 | 0:06:23 | |
worthless and a joke. | 0:06:23 | 0:06:25 | |
That's their line. | 0:06:25 | 0:06:28 | |
It is almost like the contemporary
art world is a particular culture. | 0:06:28 | 0:06:32 | |
That's what I've become aware
of putting the show together. | 0:06:32 | 0:06:39 | |
They are a tribe. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:41 | |
It has its own internal rituals,
its little white temples. | 0:06:41 | 0:06:44 | |
It can get bound up in itself. | 0:06:44 | 0:06:46 | |
It does not necessarily speak
to the wider audience. | 0:06:46 | 0:06:49 | |
At its worst, it can become very
insular and inward looking. | 0:06:49 | 0:06:52 | |
It doesn't need the audience
a lot of the time. | 0:06:52 | 0:06:56 | |
There are collectors, dealers,
artists, they have a close circle | 0:06:56 | 0:06:59 | |
and they do not need
the money of the public. | 0:06:59 | 0:07:02 | |
They do not need the
attention of the public. | 0:07:02 | 0:07:04 | |
So the art world can
become self-indulgent. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:06 | |
I am interested in communicating
with a wider audience. | 0:07:06 | 0:07:09 | |
That is one of the attractions
of having an exhibition | 0:07:09 | 0:07:12 | |
in the British Museum. | 0:07:12 | 0:07:13 | |
So the first pot acknowledges that. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:18 | |
Then they see what? | 0:07:19 | 0:07:22 | |
Three helmets. | 0:07:22 | 0:07:26 | |
It's a tease. | 0:07:26 | 0:07:29 | |
Be on your guard and don't
take things for granted. | 0:07:29 | 0:07:38 | |
Can you explain them? | 0:07:38 | 0:07:43 | |
The first is a motorcycle helmet
that I rode on my motorcycle around | 0:07:43 | 0:07:46 | |
Germany. | 0:07:46 | 0:07:48 | |
It is very brightly painted. | 0:07:48 | 0:07:50 | |
It is painted with aluminium. | 0:07:50 | 0:07:52 | |
It is a real crash helmet. | 0:07:52 | 0:07:56 | |
Next to that is an aluminium helmet,
and it looks like it has been dug up | 0:07:56 | 0:08:00 | |
from an archaeological dig. | 0:08:01 | 0:08:12 | |
I made it in 1981. | 0:08:12 | 0:08:14 | |
It has been in my back
garden for 30 years. | 0:08:14 | 0:08:17 | |
It looks corroded
and old and authentic. | 0:08:17 | 0:08:18 | |
Then, next to that, is a ceremonial
headdress made from animal skin. | 0:08:19 | 0:08:22 | |
It looks like a prop. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:23 | |
That looks like the fake thing. | 0:08:23 | 0:08:31 | |
The real thing looks like the fake
thing and that's what I was saying. | 0:08:31 | 0:08:35 | |
Look closely at everything,
read things carefully, | 0:08:35 | 0:08:37 | |
pay attention to the labels. | 0:08:37 | 0:08:39 | |
And it has worked. | 0:08:39 | 0:08:42 | |
I see people are studying
at the exhibition. | 0:08:42 | 0:08:46 | |
They think, 'is this an object
from the artist or from the museum'? | 0:08:47 | 0:08:51 | |
And reacting differently
to your work because it is here? | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
I hope so. | 0:08:55 | 0:08:58 | |
Because they're on guard,
they are looking at things | 0:08:58 | 0:09:01 | |
neutrally. | 0:09:01 | 0:09:04 | |
They are not thinking it's
contemporary art so they're | 0:09:04 | 0:09:07 | |
looking for that. | 0:09:08 | 0:09:11 | |
They have to drop their guard
and look at everything | 0:09:12 | 0:09:14 | |
with an openness that this might be
a piece from Egypt from 2,000 years | 0:09:14 | 0:09:18 | |
ago or maybe it is a piece
of contemporary art. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:25 | |
It may be a throwaway thing
from Victorian England. | 0:09:25 | 0:09:32 | |
I took a risk because these objects
are very significant. | 0:09:32 | 0:09:36 | |
My objects are up against them. | 0:09:36 | 0:09:39 | |
Although, part of the exhibition
is about a reference to everything, | 0:09:39 | 0:09:42 | |
not just religion. | 0:09:42 | 0:09:47 | |
'Hold your beliefs lightly'. | 0:09:47 | 0:09:52 | |
It was aimed at religion
but the rigidity of belief | 0:09:52 | 0:09:55 | |
is a dangerously mental illness. | 0:09:55 | 0:10:02 | |
To hold onto your beliefs
until your knuckles are white | 0:10:02 | 0:10:05 | |
is a very destructive
and insane thing to do. | 0:10:05 | 0:10:12 | |
One of the quotes on the pots
is that you are into offbeat stuff. | 0:10:12 | 0:10:16 | |
Yeah. | 0:10:16 | 0:10:19 | |
Yet you said one of the big
ambitions in your career is to make | 0:10:19 | 0:10:23 | |
happy and non-confrontational art. | 0:10:23 | 0:10:32 | |
Offbeat is a light-hearted thing. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:36 | |
Are you confrontational? | 0:10:36 | 0:10:37 | |
Is your art confrontational? | 0:10:37 | 0:10:38 | |
I think it probably is but not
in the way that many | 0:10:38 | 0:10:41 | |
people might think. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:42 | |
It's not about sex or violence. | 0:10:42 | 0:10:48 | |
I am not necessary
challenging people. | 0:10:48 | 0:10:54 | |
The area that is most influential on
me, psychotherapy and mental | 0:10:54 | 0:11:03 | |
illness, | 0:11:03 | 0:11:04 | |
I am working in the area of sanity
and what makes us a good life | 0:11:04 | 0:11:08 | |
as a human being. | 0:11:09 | 0:11:10 | |
Our mindset is central to that. | 0:11:10 | 0:11:11 | |
That is the area where
I challenge people. | 0:11:11 | 0:11:13 | |
So maybe that's where
I challenge people. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:15 | |
It is about holding things lightly. | 0:11:15 | 0:11:17 | |
It is a tightrope walk. | 0:11:17 | 0:11:18 | |
You challenge people. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:19 | |
You have pots with
graphic sexual imagery. | 0:11:19 | 0:11:21 | |
There is a whole section about sex. | 0:11:21 | 0:11:23 | |
Some of it is thousands of years
old and it is more explicit | 0:11:23 | 0:11:26 | |
than the things I have made. | 0:11:26 | 0:11:30 | |
There is a stone carving, 1,000
years old, from an Irish Church, | 0:11:30 | 0:11:34 | |
of a woman holding her vagina open. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
It is like, nothing is new. | 0:11:37 | 0:11:41 | |
The idea... | 0:11:41 | 0:11:43 | |
The problem people have with sex
is not necessarily sex | 0:11:43 | 0:11:46 | |
but the context it's in. | 0:11:46 | 0:11:49 | |
It is about exploitation
and brutality and violence. | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
These are the areas where sex... | 0:11:52 | 0:11:55 | |
People get offended by sex
and they are the same people | 0:11:55 | 0:11:58 | |
who are often doing horrific things. | 0:11:58 | 0:11:59 | |
But in terms of whether you're
confrontational, you have put lines | 0:11:59 | 0:12:03 | |
like, 'We have found
the body of your child'. | 0:12:03 | 0:12:10 | |
really quite arresting stuff. For
some who said they wanted to make | 0:12:10 | 0:12:16 | |
happy art... | 0:12:16 | 0:12:20 | |
Are you making happy art now? | 0:12:20 | 0:12:22 | |
Definitely. | 0:12:22 | 0:12:24 | |
Decorative stuff. | 0:12:24 | 0:12:26 | |
That's underrated? | 0:12:26 | 0:12:27 | |
Yes. | 0:12:27 | 0:12:27 | |
Do you think the art world is too
hung up on meanings? | 0:12:27 | 0:12:31 | |
The worst thing an artist can do
is to get too wrapped up | 0:12:31 | 0:12:34 | |
in their own ideas. | 0:12:34 | 0:12:35 | |
I want to create things
that look beautiful. | 0:12:35 | 0:12:41 | |
The meaning is part of what makes
a good artwork but it should not be | 0:12:41 | 0:12:45 | |
the be all and end all. | 0:12:45 | 0:12:48 | |
Quite often I get the feeling that
you do not want to sit | 0:12:48 | 0:12:52 | |
with the meaning of
a work in your house. | 0:12:52 | 0:12:56 | |
Often I think about,
would a person like to come down | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
and look at it the next day
after they bought it? | 0:12:59 | 0:13:06 | |
That brings me to why
you have chosen pots. | 0:13:06 | 0:13:09 | |
You object to being called a potter. | 0:13:09 | 0:13:19 | |
That is how you made your name,
however, as a ceramicist. | 0:13:19 | 0:13:24 | |
But you describe it
as a modest craft. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:26 | |
It is. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:27 | |
There are a couple of large pots
in the exhibition and that is as far | 0:13:27 | 0:13:31 | |
as I can go. | 0:13:31 | 0:13:32 | |
Any bigger and it is a technical
nightmare. | 0:13:32 | 0:13:38 | |
But it need not be modest. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:39 | |
In Britain, pottery is underrated. | 0:13:39 | 0:13:41 | |
In China they treat
ceramics much higher, | 0:13:41 | 0:13:45 | |
and it is a different approach. | 0:13:45 | 0:13:49 | |
It's different in Britain. | 0:13:49 | 0:13:50 | |
They are still modest
objects if you put them | 0:13:50 | 0:13:53 | |
against most contemporary art. | 0:13:53 | 0:13:54 | |
Even the flashiest ceramic,
next to a Jeff Koon | 0:13:54 | 0:13:57 | |
or a Damien Hirst, it disappears. | 0:13:57 | 0:13:58 | |
They are so shouty, the modern art. | 0:13:58 | 0:14:00 | |
So in the context, they are modest. | 0:14:00 | 0:14:14 | |
There's another reason
you chose that modesty, | 0:14:14 | 0:14:18 | |
because allied with what you're
putting on your pots, | 0:14:18 | 0:14:28 | |
that's where you think,
that's the point of your art. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:34 | |
Initially why I did ceramics
was purely by chance. | 0:14:34 | 0:14:36 | |
I was a penniless graduate. | 0:14:36 | 0:14:37 | |
I didn't have a studio. | 0:14:37 | 0:14:39 | |
Evening classes were practically
free at the time in London. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:45 | |
I could go and keep my hand
in doing a bit of clay. | 0:14:45 | 0:14:48 | |
Then I started making pots. | 0:14:48 | 0:14:49 | |
I was interested in my art friends'
reaction to the pots. | 0:14:50 | 0:14:55 | |
Craft was seen as naff,
ridiculous and unfashionable. | 0:14:55 | 0:15:00 | |
It was seen as a kind of pretentious
next door neighbour of art. | 0:15:00 | 0:15:04 | |
It was a class thing as well. | 0:15:04 | 0:15:09 | |
The higher academician idea of art
as opposed to the workmanlike craft. | 0:15:09 | 0:15:12 | |
I was interested in
the baggage around pottery. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:18 | |
And then of course there's
the consumer baggage of pottery. | 0:15:18 | 0:15:24 | |
'S and Higgs and you're aunties's
knickknacks and the baggage they | 0:15:24 | 0:15:28 | |
have -- its antiques. | 0:15:28 | 0:15:31 | |
They were all to me quite good
ammunition to work with. | 0:15:31 | 0:15:34 | |
All of those thoughts
people have about pottery, | 0:15:34 | 0:15:36 | |
they were not contemporary art,
so there was this constant | 0:15:36 | 0:15:39 | |
battle with it. | 0:15:39 | 0:15:48 | |
I trained as a contemporary
artist, not a potter. | 0:15:48 | 0:15:51 | |
I was interested in all
of those different ideas. | 0:15:51 | 0:15:53 | |
20 years on when I won
the Turner Prize people still had | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
difficulty with the fact
that I was making pots. | 0:15:57 | 0:15:59 | |
I thought, there's mileage in this!
You can make a shark into art and | 0:15:59 | 0:16:03 | |
nobody questions it. | 0:16:03 | 0:16:04 | |
To do pottery still seemed
to rankle with people! | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
I found that fascinating. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:07 | |
I was dealing with the prejudices
of the kind of liberal | 0:16:07 | 0:16:10 | |
and intellectual elite. | 0:16:10 | 0:16:14 | |
Here you are now dressed
as a man, which is not | 0:16:14 | 0:16:17 | |
certainly your usual public persona. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:22 | |
Why did you choose not
to wear a dress today? | 0:16:22 | 0:16:27 | |
It is 9amin the morning. | 0:16:27 | 0:16:30 | |
I would have to get up very early. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:32 | |
Is that it?
Yes. | 0:16:32 | 0:16:33 | |
And I have many other
meetings today. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:39 | |
There's transport issues. | 0:16:39 | 0:16:40 | |
Heat is the enemy
of drag, as they say. | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
I wonder if you've changed
your approach to it. | 0:16:43 | 0:16:49 | |
You seem to appear as Grayson,
Grayson in a suit more often. | 0:16:49 | 0:16:54 | |
I'm more relaxed about it nowadays. | 0:16:54 | 0:16:55 | |
It was never about publicity. | 0:16:56 | 0:16:57 | |
Did it help, though? | 0:16:57 | 0:17:00 | |
You say it was never about publicity
but did it help your art? | 0:17:00 | 0:17:03 | |
Of course it did! | 0:17:03 | 0:17:04 | |
For the same reasons
that the shockingness of winding | 0:17:05 | 0:17:07 | |
people up about pottery helped? | 0:17:07 | 0:17:08 | |
Yeah. | 0:17:08 | 0:17:09 | |
In the modern world,
where the cultural field | 0:17:09 | 0:17:11 | |
is so loaded, the media
is part of it. | 0:17:11 | 0:17:31 | |
Anybody who clings on to the idea
that, I am above all that, | 0:17:31 | 0:17:35 | |
is making a rod for their own back. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:37 | |
But it was not only publicity. | 0:17:37 | 0:17:38 | |
I'm a transvestite! | 0:17:39 | 0:17:40 | |
I'm erotically compelled to dress up
like a woman. | 0:17:40 | 0:17:43 | |
It's when you choose to dress up. | 0:17:43 | 0:17:45 | |
I dress up when I want
to and when it is convenient | 0:17:45 | 0:17:48 | |
and when it fits in
with what I'm doing. | 0:17:48 | 0:17:52 | |
I will always opt to do it if I can. | 0:17:53 | 0:17:55 | |
If we were doing this interview
later in the day and I did not have | 0:17:55 | 0:17:59 | |
so much to do I would
probably be in a frock. | 0:17:59 | 0:18:02 | |
I would like to do that. | 0:18:02 | 0:18:05 | |
Is it coincidental to your art? | 0:18:05 | 0:18:11 | |
I imagine it can't be. You just walk
around this exhibition to see how | 0:18:11 | 0:18:15 | |
important it is to you. You see
Claire, your alter ego... | 0:18:15 | 0:18:22 | |
Historically, you look back
through art, which is mainly done | 0:18:22 | 0:18:25 | |
by men, and a lot
of it is about sex. | 0:18:25 | 0:18:27 | |
Transvestism is part
of my sexuality. | 0:18:27 | 0:18:29 | |
You describe yourself as Clare. | 0:18:29 | 0:18:38 | |
Does Clare exist any more? | 0:18:38 | 0:18:45 | |
I think, as I've got older,
I've integrated my transvestite | 0:18:46 | 0:18:48 | |
behaviour into my personality. | 0:18:48 | 0:18:49 | |
It's not a separate thing. | 0:18:49 | 0:18:56 | |
That's part of sanity, bringing
all of your personalities into one. | 0:18:56 | 0:19:00 | |
Integration. | 0:19:00 | 0:19:06 | |
That's that shrine in the show, | 0:19:06 | 0:19:11 | |
the woman with the anvil
hammering my parts together. | 0:19:11 | 0:19:17 | |
The idea that sanity is not to push
parts of yourself away, | 0:19:17 | 0:19:20 | |
to disassociate them... | 0:19:20 | 0:19:21 | |
It's to bring them in... | 0:19:21 | 0:19:25 | |
A good definition of sanity is to be
all of yourself all of the time | 0:19:25 | 0:19:29 | |
to everyone, not to be a chameleon. | 0:19:29 | 0:19:33 | |
That's mental illness. | 0:19:34 | 0:19:34 | |
You make the point that how people
dress is a physical manifestation | 0:19:34 | 0:19:38 | |
of how they want to be treated. | 0:19:38 | 0:19:42 | |
It's an unconscious desire that's
part of transvestism. | 0:19:42 | 0:19:44 | |
As a child... | 0:19:44 | 0:19:48 | |
You've got to remember that sexual
fetishes on the whole developed | 0:19:48 | 0:19:51 | |
in nurture, in childhood. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:52 | |
They come out of that. | 0:19:52 | 0:19:58 | |
There might be a predisposition
in a person, but I think | 0:19:59 | 0:20:01 | |
they are mainly
to do with nurture. | 0:20:02 | 0:20:08 | |
Therefore, if you feel as a child
that you're not getting the sort | 0:20:08 | 0:20:11 | |
of attention that you want,
you might start looking | 0:20:11 | 0:20:14 | |
for strategies or cues in life that
might get you that attention. | 0:20:14 | 0:20:19 | |
Which brings me to one of the items
here, your high priestess cape. | 0:20:19 | 0:20:24 | |
You go round the corner of this
exhibition and you see something | 0:20:24 | 0:20:27 | |
that could be an oriental work. | 0:20:27 | 0:20:33 | |
It's a satin cape
with embroidery on it. | 0:20:33 | 0:20:46 | |
It's got exotic birds sitting
on a branch from a distance, | 0:20:46 | 0:20:49 | |
but when you come closer you realise
they're not birds at all. | 0:20:49 | 0:20:53 | |
They're basically flying penises. | 0:20:54 | 0:20:58 | |
Yes, flying penises. | 0:20:58 | 0:21:00 | |
The design was based
on a wedding kimono. | 0:21:00 | 0:21:04 | |
The flying penis, often
you think of the erect penis | 0:21:04 | 0:21:07 | |
as an aggressive thing. | 0:21:07 | 0:21:10 | |
But there's also a delicate little
bird, perhaps there's a message in | 0:21:10 | 0:21:14 | |
there to people. It goes back to
Roman times, piranha must Bosch used | 0:21:14 | 0:21:22 | |
it, it goes back many years. | 0:21:22 | 0:21:24 | |
I have got a model of a mediaeval
pilgrim badge that people would have | 0:21:24 | 0:21:28 | |
gotten at a festival,
and that is a flying penis. | 0:21:28 | 0:21:30 | |
I want to normalise these things
to a certain extent. | 0:21:30 | 0:21:33 | |
If I do it it would be great. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:35 | |
I want to say, grow up. | 0:21:35 | 0:21:39 | |
Do you think that has
happened with modern art, | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
that over the last 20 years,
people's reaction has changed? | 0:21:42 | 0:21:44 | |
There is more acceptance? | 0:21:44 | 0:21:46 | |
I think the media's reaction
is the thing that is difficult | 0:21:46 | 0:21:48 | |
to deal with. | 0:21:49 | 0:22:01 | |
The public are much more
tolerant than the media. | 0:22:02 | 0:22:04 | |
The media has a fantasy
of its audience, particularly | 0:22:04 | 0:22:06 | |
the right wing media. | 0:22:06 | 0:22:16 | |
In Britain that is quite
dominant in many ways. | 0:22:16 | 0:22:23 | |
You don't think they're reflecting
rather than informing? | 0:22:23 | 0:22:30 | |
They're certainly not
reflective of my audience. | 0:22:30 | 0:22:31 | |
My audience are much more
sophisticated than the popular media | 0:22:32 | 0:22:34 | |
view of contemporary art
and the issues that I deal with. | 0:22:34 | 0:22:37 | |
My audience are what I would call
a kind of middle class, | 0:22:37 | 0:22:45 | |
middlebrow, National Trust,
Radio 4, well-informed, | 0:22:45 | 0:22:47 | |
educated, the supporters of culture. | 0:22:47 | 0:22:55 | |
Has that always been your audience? | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
You're talking about Middle England. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:06 | |
In a sense, a transvestite
potter who puts... | 0:23:06 | 0:23:08 | |
People are tolerant! | 0:23:08 | 0:23:13 | |
I never get any hassle
with people who are tolerant. | 0:23:13 | 0:23:20 | |
That's so annoying. | 0:23:20 | 0:23:23 | |
Trying to stoke up shock. | 0:23:23 | 0:23:26 | |
Trying to stoke up shock. | 0:23:26 | 0:23:27 | |
It's boring. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:27 | |
Did you always know
people were tolerant? | 0:23:27 | 0:23:29 | |
Your family were not tolerant. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:31 | |
They're innocent. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:31 | |
That was 40 years ago. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:33 | |
The modern world has moved on. | 0:23:33 | 0:23:34 | |
The internet, the media... | 0:23:34 | 0:23:48 | |
And moved on because of people
like you being public | 0:23:48 | 0:23:51 | |
with their art? | 0:23:51 | 0:23:52 | |
I hope so. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:53 | |
I could be sentenced
to death in a few countries | 0:23:53 | 0:23:55 | |
for wearing a frock. | 0:23:55 | 0:23:56 | |
It's ridiculous! | 0:23:57 | 0:24:00 | |
Grayson, thank you for coming on
HARDtalk. Pleasure. | 0:24:00 | 0:24:10 |