Hilde Johnson HARDtalk


Hilde Johnson

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nature of his condition is unknown. South Sudan became independent last

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July after a five decade wore leggings to the north in what was

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Africa's longest-running civil war. But secession has not brought peace

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for stability. Hostility between it and is more than it may go Lizzie

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to teetering on the run of war and ethnic clashes. My guest is the UN

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head of mission for South Sudan. If the country effectively already a

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scale state? -- failed state. How far are the country's problems

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the issue of secession ques mac Souster dining is fear world's

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youngest nation. This is the world's and his nation. There are

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five lost decades. Health, in the structure. Government institutions

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were recently established. Clearly, there will be huge challenges. If

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you look at the fact they signed the agreement and the CBA in

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January 2005, it means they have effectively, the ruling party, they

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have been effectively governing South Sudan as an autonomous state

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for six years. That is really big birthright and you cannot see any

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evidence of that money in the country. That aid money has never

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gone to government coffers. It is the equivalent of other countries

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in the world. It is catching up for all these five decades of loss.

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Most of that is from oil revenue. Sure. That is a lot of money. It is

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around $2 million a year. You know perfectly well that you cannot see

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the evidence that South Sudan have have had. What about the rest of

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the country, not just in Juba. number of children in school has

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doubled. We have seen measles and polio. There have been campaigns

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and they have been successful. We have seen 6,000 kilometres of road

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de constructed. 100 metres of proper paved roads. It shows the

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challenges. You gave me the figures. You say 10% of children in South

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Sudan complete primary education. The vast majority of adults there

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are not literate. Why do you think this is happening? Give me your

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view. There is no doubt that building an education system,

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making sure our whole country becomes literate, making sure that

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health systems are available in a country of this size, the size of

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France, where nothing was there before, it is a huge challenge. We

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could have seen more things happening in the last six years but

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we have seen quite a lot happening. Much more needs to happen now. Now

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is where the test really comes for the government. Now is where they

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need to show they are running their own country and they are able to

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bring services to their own people. The resources have to go to them.

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Can you tell me - is it because of corruption, where 70% of South

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Sudan's budget goes to pays. Corruption - whether it takes the

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form of bribes, officials taking cuts from deals. It is the people

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of South Sudan who take the price. Corruption is a problem, absolutely.

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I can give you a good reason why. We have a situation where I don't

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think anyone has experienced going from a guerrilla movement without a

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system - no commercial bank to speak of. It is clear that this

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leads to corruption. We are also seeing a situation where the

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government is now taking measures to deal with that and to rule out

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corruption. Is it really? That is not what the people of South Sudan

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are saying. Very important decisions have been taken in the

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last few months. South Sudan has decided and are committed to join

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the industry's initiative. This is an initiative that is related to

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countries that really wanted their natural resources to be used for

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the benefit of the people with transparence and accountability.

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They want to do that. The President has come with two decrees which

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shows he is committed to moving this agenda forward. Very tough

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decisions are coming down the pipeline. We have to see them

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implemented in full but there are strong signals coming. People say

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there is an anti-corruption commission and we hear the

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President saying this, but really, nothing much is really done to

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tackle the problem. We need to see stronger action and that is why the

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actions we are now witnessing... you tell him yourself when you see

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him? Absolutely. It is actions you need to see. What questions has he

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taken? There are two presidential decrees. All public officials are

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prohibited from doing business alongside government officials.

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Being active in business while you are in government will lead to your

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resignation. We have been investigating one of the biggest

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scandals that have been happening. A third measure is that John has

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become an adviser to the President. He is the anti-corruption adviser

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from Kenya. He is committed to help the government get their affairs in

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order in this area and other areas. When we go to implement all this,

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you are giving him the benefit of the doubt. Do you think he will do

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this? A number of other countries that are oil-producing have gone

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the route of corruption. We have seen problems in Nigeria etc. This

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is a critical position that has to be made. Do they want to go in the

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way of Botswana or do they go the other road? They want to go the

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route of Botswana. We need to see it happen and that is a concrete

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actions. You know what people say about him - an army man. He had all

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these men under his command. 800 generals in the South Sudanese army,

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some of them with personal bodyguards running into the

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hundreds. You have seen them. The four by fours. Rows of them. You

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have people a few yards away, people living in basic conditions.

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Do you think they will sack those 800 generals. They presidential

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decree is clear. We need to see that it is followed up. It will be

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up to the President to show that he means business. If you want to

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challenge the President more, maybe he can be your next guest on

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HARDtalk. What about the list of the 13 most corrupt officials. Is

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he going to release a list? I am not familiar he has that list. I do

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not know anybody who has it. Most of the ministers in the government

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and in the Obama administration knows them. Clearly we need to see

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much more action in this area. Have you given him a time frame?

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have to do this by such-and-such a time? I do not think he needs a

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time frame and it is not within my mandate to have time frames of

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action in this area. I'd think we will see action going forward. If

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not, there is going to be a significant reaction amongst

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international loaners and amongst international stakeholders. We all

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expect much from this government and we want them to deliver on this

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issue and deliver services to their people. They have been suffering

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for far too long. They have not been given health, education,

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seeing their livelihoods improve. That is the difference they need to

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make. There are other criticisms of him - authoritarianism, restricted

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freedoms, stories of journalists having been detained because they

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have carried stories about the wedding of his daughter and so on.

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That kind of impression is not a good one to convey. I do not know

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whether you follow South Sudanese media every day. I read the papers

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every day. They contain a lot of discussion and debate and a lot of

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criticism of government officials, the president and others. Yes,

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there has been extremely unfortunate incidents like this and

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that should not happen. However we are seeing, in the last few months

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after independence, positive signs of political inclusiveness, a

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willingness to include other parties in consultations. The

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Political Parties Act has gone to Cabinet. We are seeing a

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willingness to open up and ensure presentation by the political

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stakeholders. We are not there yet. This is a six-month start and we

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need to see a democratic process that leads to what we really see as

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a full-fledged democracy. We were talking about oil and it could be a

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curse or a blessing for South Sudan and you wanted to go the way of

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Botswana, not Nigeria. South Sudan has enough oil to provide each of

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its 9 million people with $1,000 each year. Now it has suspended its

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oil production because of this di dias with the North about

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the amount of transit fees that they should receive from them for

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the oil that goes to the infrastructure, the pipelines and

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the ports in the north. Was that a My reading woes that that position

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was not taken in response to that. It was in reaction to what they

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regard as the confiscation of order by the government. Bases at that

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oil because they said it was not receiving the chance typifies. They

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wanted it edited dollars and barrel. -- their teacher dollars.

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They think they should be paid by the standard. This happened in the

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middle of the negotiations between the two countries. Unfortunately, I

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do not deal with the issues. The South Sudan reaction was against

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that... The reaction, they had been exporting many hours a day, was is

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a wide bargaining mood for deep south Sudanese government to do?

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This has been described as a suicidal step for the government.

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We are going to see a situation where this will have a significant

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impact. The dependence on revenue from oil is huge. Over 90%. 98% of

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the budget is some oil. We are likely to see two things happen.

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Salaries will be affected. The public servants and officials who

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received those salaries will be affected. Many services are still

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being delivered from international aid agencies. The salaries of

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nurses and teachers will be impact it. That is alarming. Said John

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Holmes says it is extremely worrying because the army will not

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be paid. There is azer mac the government will only have two or

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three months of cash reserves. -- there is an estimate. The army

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needs to be right sized. It needs to go through a process of perverse

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ionisation and demobilisation. -- professionalisation. John Holmes

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says he south Sudanese government will have to live with the

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consequences of their actions. He is worried. Are you worried that

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they will not be able to pay the salaries? It is worrying a lot of

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international stakeholders. You are worried? Absolutely. What are you

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worried about? What could happen? The main worry is going to be wet

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or there will be a consequences due to the lack of salaries. Sudanese

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officials say they will not have any significant risk on their part

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because they say many are -- I used to not having salaries from the

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four. We know what was until soldiers can do. That is a concern.

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We are in a situation where this has to be managed in a very careful

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manner. The austerity budget being appraised needs to be managed in a

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very careful manner so we do not see adverse impacts on the

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population at large. The US ambassador is very worried they may

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go over the brink. They may have to pay a price that may hurt the

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people of Sudan. It could take them a long time to get the oil back on

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track from when they want to start production again. Can the

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international community of Ford or South Sudan to do this? I have not

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heard anything from the international community in terms of

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compensating the loss. They have to manage these on their own. They

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must protect the most vulnerable people. The most significant area

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of concern is food imports. We need to avoid the impact of a potential

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food deficit. The international community... The consequences of

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these actions can be dire. Potentially, yes. There is also an

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opportunity to try and straighten up some of the areas which have

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we -- have not been how we want it to

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be. You have a possibility to utilise this. The significant

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concern related to the potential impact remains. At the core of this

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is the dispute between the north and the south. The President said

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the two countries are closer to war and peace. Are you worried about

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fresh hostilities breaking out between the two countries? 999 of

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the two party is have any interest in reigniting the war which took

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decades to end. It is just talk, you think? Empty words? I cannot

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say that. Fundamentally, it is my hope that both parties will

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overcome this crisis and gets to a agreement on the issues. It is not

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my mandate. One part of your mandate is about the domination of

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a sector of the population of Sudan. They have 41% of the ministries in

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the government. It feeds into the ethnic rivalries that have existed

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for many years. We have seen the terrible violence. Why is this

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mission and able to help stop the ethnic violence? We took decisive

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action when we saw the mobilisation. We did it three things: We sounded

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the alarm with the government and asked them to mobilise as much

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forces as possible and deploy them. We mobilised half of our combat

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ready for us. Eight out of 15 companies, to respond to the crisis.

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A mandate for 7,000 troops but only half are deployed? It is

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complicated. The combat ready forces are not the 7,000. The

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peacekeeping illusion is the numbers we have... How many he

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have? -- do you have? It is not enough. We had the second measure

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we took. We gave early warning civilians said they can get out of

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harm's way. A UN coordinated or told people to have the league

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because they might be attack. Is that the role of the UN? No-one in

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the UN told people to leave it for their lives. We share information

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with local authorities. They took the decision, they sounded the

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warning. A local administrator went to the UN and said, we need

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protection. He said the UN failed us. If this was true... It is true.

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It is not true. We have investigated this incident and

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others. They are not true. What -- are the people relocated, we went

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from hut to hut to look for those who could not take care of

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themselves and we evacuated them. You are protecting people? We are.

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We put a defensive position up where people could hide behind the

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protective defence positions. Secondly, the SPLA opened fire on

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the attackers. They moved out. If we had not done this, we would have

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