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nature of his condition is unknown. South Sudan became independent last | :00:13. | :00:19. | |
July after a five decade wore leggings to the north in what was | :00:19. | :00:25. | |
Africa's longest-running civil war. But secession has not brought peace | :00:25. | :00:32. | |
for stability. Hostility between it and is more than it may go Lizzie | :00:32. | :00:40. | |
to teetering on the run of war and ethnic clashes. My guest is the UN | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
head of mission for South Sudan. If the country effectively already a | :00:46. | :00:56. | |
:00:56. | :01:23. | ||
scale state? -- failed state. How far are the country's problems | :01:23. | :01:31. | |
the issue of secession ques mac Souster dining is fear world's | :01:31. | :01:41. | |
:01:41. | :01:56. | ||
youngest nation. This is the world's and his nation. There are | :01:56. | :02:03. | |
five lost decades. Health, in the structure. Government institutions | :02:03. | :02:09. | |
were recently established. Clearly, there will be huge challenges. If | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
you look at the fact they signed the agreement and the CBA in | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
January 2005, it means they have effectively, the ruling party, they | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
have been effectively governing South Sudan as an autonomous state | :02:17. | :02:27. | |
:02:27. | :02:32. | ||
for six years. That is really big birthright and you cannot see any | :02:32. | :02:42. | |
:02:42. | :02:43. | ||
evidence of that money in the country. That aid money has never | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
gone to government coffers. It is the equivalent of other countries | :02:48. | :02:58. | |
:02:58. | :03:01. | ||
in the world. It is catching up for all these five decades of loss. | :03:01. | :03:11. | |
Most of that is from oil revenue. Sure. That is a lot of money. It is | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
around $2 million a year. You know perfectly well that you cannot see | :03:16. | :03:25. | |
:03:26. | :03:28. | ||
the evidence that South Sudan have have had. What about the rest of | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
the country, not just in Juba. number of children in school has | :03:34. | :03:44. | |
:03:44. | :03:44. | ||
doubled. We have seen measles and polio. There have been campaigns | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
and they have been successful. We have seen 6,000 kilometres of road | :03:48. | :03:58. | |
:03:58. | :04:05. | ||
de constructed. 100 metres of proper paved roads. It shows the | :04:05. | :04:15. | |
:04:15. | :04:16. | ||
challenges. You gave me the figures. You say 10% of children in South | :04:16. | :04:26. | |
Sudan complete primary education. The vast majority of adults there | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
are not literate. Why do you think this is happening? Give me your | :04:31. | :04:38. | |
view. There is no doubt that building an education system, | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
making sure our whole country becomes literate, making sure that | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
health systems are available in a country of this size, the size of | :04:44. | :04:54. | |
:04:54. | :04:56. | ||
France, where nothing was there before, it is a huge challenge. We | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
could have seen more things happening in the last six years but | :04:59. | :05:06. | |
we have seen quite a lot happening. Much more needs to happen now. Now | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
is where the test really comes for the government. Now is where they | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
need to show they are running their own country and they are able to | :05:14. | :05:22. | |
bring services to their own people. The resources have to go to them. | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
Can you tell me - is it because of corruption, where 70% of South | :05:26. | :05:36. | |
:05:36. | :05:40. | ||
Sudan's budget goes to pays. Corruption - whether it takes the | :05:40. | :05:49. | |
form of bribes, officials taking cuts from deals. It is the people | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
of South Sudan who take the price. Corruption is a problem, absolutely. | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
I can give you a good reason why. We have a situation where I don't | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
think anyone has experienced going from a guerrilla movement without a | :06:02. | :06:11. | |
system - no commercial bank to speak of. It is clear that this | :06:11. | :06:20. | |
leads to corruption. We are also seeing a situation where the | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
government is now taking measures to deal with that and to rule out | :06:23. | :06:30. | |
corruption. Is it really? That is not what the people of South Sudan | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
are saying. Very important decisions have been taken in the | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
last few months. South Sudan has decided and are committed to join | :06:38. | :06:45. | |
the industry's initiative. This is an initiative that is related to | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
countries that really wanted their natural resources to be used for | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
the benefit of the people with transparence and accountability. | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
They want to do that. The President has come with two decrees which | :06:58. | :07:04. | |
shows he is committed to moving this agenda forward. Very tough | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
decisions are coming down the pipeline. We have to see them | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
implemented in full but there are strong signals coming. People say | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
there is an anti-corruption commission and we hear the | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
President saying this, but really, nothing much is really done to | :07:17. | :07:27. | |
:07:27. | :07:30. | ||
tackle the problem. We need to see stronger action and that is why the | :07:30. | :07:37. | |
actions we are now witnessing... you tell him yourself when you see | :07:37. | :07:43. | |
him? Absolutely. It is actions you need to see. What questions has he | :07:44. | :07:51. | |
taken? There are two presidential decrees. All public officials are | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
prohibited from doing business alongside government officials. | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
Being active in business while you are in government will lead to your | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
resignation. We have been investigating one of the biggest | :08:06. | :08:16. | |
:08:16. | :08:17. | ||
scandals that have been happening. A third measure is that John has | :08:17. | :08:25. | |
become an adviser to the President. He is the anti-corruption adviser | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
from Kenya. He is committed to help the government get their affairs in | :08:30. | :08:39. | |
order in this area and other areas. When we go to implement all this, | :08:39. | :08:45. | |
you are giving him the benefit of the doubt. Do you think he will do | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
this? A number of other countries that are oil-producing have gone | :08:48. | :08:58. | |
:08:58. | :08:58. | ||
the route of corruption. We have seen problems in Nigeria etc. This | :08:58. | :09:05. | |
is a critical position that has to be made. Do they want to go in the | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
way of Botswana or do they go the other road? They want to go the | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
route of Botswana. We need to see it happen and that is a concrete | :09:18. | :09:27. | |
actions. You know what people say about him - an army man. He had all | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
these men under his command. 800 generals in the South Sudanese army, | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
some of them with personal bodyguards running into the | :09:33. | :09:43. | |
:09:43. | :09:46. | ||
hundreds. You have seen them. The four by fours. Rows of them. You | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
have people a few yards away, people living in basic conditions. | :09:51. | :10:00. | |
Do you think they will sack those 800 generals. They presidential | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
decree is clear. We need to see that it is followed up. It will be | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
up to the President to show that he means business. If you want to | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
challenge the President more, maybe he can be your next guest on | :10:13. | :10:23. | |
HARDtalk. What about the list of the 13 most corrupt officials. Is | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
he going to release a list? I am not familiar he has that list. I do | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
not know anybody who has it. Most of the ministers in the government | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
and in the Obama administration knows them. Clearly we need to see | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
much more action in this area. Have you given him a time frame? | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
have to do this by such-and-such a time? I do not think he needs a | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
time frame and it is not within my mandate to have time frames of | :10:53. | :11:00. | |
action in this area. I'd think we will see action going forward. If | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
not, there is going to be a significant reaction amongst | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
international loaners and amongst international stakeholders. We all | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
expect much from this government and we want them to deliver on this | :11:11. | :11:21. | |
:11:21. | :11:22. | ||
issue and deliver services to their people. They have been suffering | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
for far too long. They have not been given health, education, | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
seeing their livelihoods improve. That is the difference they need to | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
make. There are other criticisms of him - authoritarianism, restricted | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
freedoms, stories of journalists having been detained because they | :11:33. | :11:43. | |
:11:43. | :11:44. | ||
have carried stories about the wedding of his daughter and so on. | :11:44. | :11:51. | |
That kind of impression is not a good one to convey. I do not know | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
whether you follow South Sudanese media every day. I read the papers | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
every day. They contain a lot of discussion and debate and a lot of | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
criticism of government officials, the president and others. Yes, | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
there has been extremely unfortunate incidents like this and | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
that should not happen. However we are seeing, in the last few months | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
after independence, positive signs of political inclusiveness, a | :12:13. | :12:23. | |
willingness to include other parties in consultations. The | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
Political Parties Act has gone to Cabinet. We are seeing a | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
willingness to open up and ensure presentation by the political | :12:31. | :12:41. | |
:12:41. | :12:42. | ||
stakeholders. We are not there yet. This is a six-month start and we | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
need to see a democratic process that leads to what we really see as | :12:46. | :12:55. | |
a full-fledged democracy. We were talking about oil and it could be a | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
curse or a blessing for South Sudan and you wanted to go the way of | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
Botswana, not Nigeria. South Sudan has enough oil to provide each of | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
its 9 million people with $1,000 each year. Now it has suspended its | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
oil production because of this di dias with the North about | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
the amount of transit fees that they should receive from them for | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
the oil that goes to the infrastructure, the pipelines and | :13:15. | :13:25. | |
:13:25. | :13:37. | ||
the ports in the north. Was that a My reading woes that that position | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
was not taken in response to that. It was in reaction to what they | :13:42. | :13:50. | |
regard as the confiscation of order by the government. Bases at that | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
oil because they said it was not receiving the chance typifies. They | :13:55. | :14:05. | |
:14:05. | :14:09. | ||
wanted it edited dollars and barrel. -- their teacher dollars. | :14:09. | :14:19. | |
:14:19. | :14:20. | ||
They think they should be paid by the standard. This happened in the | :14:20. | :14:30. | |
:14:30. | :14:36. | ||
middle of the negotiations between the two countries. Unfortunately, I | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
do not deal with the issues. The South Sudan reaction was against | :14:41. | :14:51. | |
:14:51. | :14:56. | ||
that... The reaction, they had been exporting many hours a day, was is | :14:57. | :15:06. | |
a wide bargaining mood for deep south Sudanese government to do? | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
This has been described as a suicidal step for the government. | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
We are going to see a situation where this will have a significant | :15:14. | :15:24. | |
:15:24. | :15:24. | ||
impact. The dependence on revenue from oil is huge. Over 90%. 98% of | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
the budget is some oil. We are likely to see two things happen. | :15:30. | :15:40. | |
:15:40. | :15:41. | ||
Salaries will be affected. The public servants and officials who | :15:41. | :15:48. | |
received those salaries will be affected. Many services are still | :15:48. | :15:55. | |
being delivered from international aid agencies. The salaries of | :15:55. | :16:05. | |
:16:05. | :16:06. | ||
nurses and teachers will be impact it. That is alarming. Said John | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
Holmes says it is extremely worrying because the army will not | :16:08. | :16:15. | |
be paid. There is azer mac the government will only have two or | :16:15. | :16:25. | |
:16:25. | :16:25. | ||
three months of cash reserves. -- there is an estimate. The army | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
needs to be right sized. It needs to go through a process of perverse | :16:32. | :16:40. | |
ionisation and demobilisation. -- professionalisation. John Holmes | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
says he south Sudanese government will have to live with the | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
consequences of their actions. He is worried. Are you worried that | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
they will not be able to pay the salaries? It is worrying a lot of | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
international stakeholders. You are worried? Absolutely. What are you | :17:00. | :17:07. | |
worried about? What could happen? The main worry is going to be wet | :17:07. | :17:17. | |
or there will be a consequences due to the lack of salaries. Sudanese | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
officials say they will not have any significant risk on their part | :17:20. | :17:30. | |
:17:30. | :17:33. | ||
because they say many are -- I used to not having salaries from the | :17:33. | :17:43. | |
:17:43. | :17:49. | ||
four. We know what was until soldiers can do. That is a concern. | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
We are in a situation where this has to be managed in a very careful | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
manner. The austerity budget being appraised needs to be managed in a | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
very careful manner so we do not see adverse impacts on the | :18:03. | :18:12. | |
population at large. The US ambassador is very worried they may | :18:12. | :18:19. | |
go over the brink. They may have to pay a price that may hurt the | :18:19. | :18:27. | |
people of Sudan. It could take them a long time to get the oil back on | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
track from when they want to start production again. Can the | :18:31. | :18:41. | |
:18:41. | :18:43. | ||
international community of Ford or South Sudan to do this? I have not | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
heard anything from the international community in terms of | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
compensating the loss. They have to manage these on their own. They | :18:52. | :19:00. | |
must protect the most vulnerable people. The most significant area | :19:00. | :19:07. | |
of concern is food imports. We need to avoid the impact of a potential | :19:07. | :19:14. | |
food deficit. The international community... The consequences of | :19:14. | :19:24. | |
:19:24. | :19:24. | ||
these actions can be dire. Potentially, yes. There is also an | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
opportunity to try and straighten up some of the areas which have | :19:29. | :19:39. | |
:19:39. | :19:39. | ||
we -- have not been how we want it to | :19:39. | :19:49. | |
:19:49. | :19:50. | ||
be. You have a possibility to utilise this. The significant | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
concern related to the potential impact remains. At the core of this | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
is the dispute between the north and the south. The President said | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
the two countries are closer to war and peace. Are you worried about | :20:08. | :20:16. | |
fresh hostilities breaking out between the two countries? 999 of | :20:16. | :20:25. | |
the two party is have any interest in reigniting the war which took | :20:25. | :20:33. | |
decades to end. It is just talk, you think? Empty words? I cannot | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
say that. Fundamentally, it is my hope that both parties will | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
overcome this crisis and gets to a agreement on the issues. It is not | :20:44. | :20:54. | |
:20:54. | :21:01. | ||
my mandate. One part of your mandate is about the domination of | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
a sector of the population of Sudan. They have 41% of the ministries in | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
the government. It feeds into the ethnic rivalries that have existed | :21:11. | :21:21. | |
:21:21. | :21:26. | ||
for many years. We have seen the terrible violence. Why is this | :21:26. | :21:33. | |
mission and able to help stop the ethnic violence? We took decisive | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
action when we saw the mobilisation. We did it three things: We sounded | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
the alarm with the government and asked them to mobilise as much | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
forces as possible and deploy them. We mobilised half of our combat | :21:49. | :21:57. | |
ready for us. Eight out of 15 companies, to respond to the crisis. | :21:57. | :22:04. | |
A mandate for 7,000 troops but only half are deployed? It is | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
complicated. The combat ready forces are not the 7,000. The | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
peacekeeping illusion is the numbers we have... How many he | :22:14. | :22:24. | |
:22:24. | :22:35. | ||
have? -- do you have? It is not enough. We had the second measure | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
we took. We gave early warning civilians said they can get out of | :22:41. | :22:50. | |
:22:51. | :22:55. | ||
harm's way. A UN coordinated or told people to have the league | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
because they might be attack. Is that the role of the UN? No-one in | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
the UN told people to leave it for their lives. We share information | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
with local authorities. They took the decision, they sounded the | :23:11. | :23:21. | |
:23:21. | :23:22. | ||
warning. A local administrator went to the UN and said, we need | :23:22. | :23:32. | |
:23:32. | :23:33. | ||
protection. He said the UN failed us. If this was true... It is true. | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
It is not true. We have investigated this incident and | :23:37. | :23:47. | |
:23:47. | :23:49. | ||
others. They are not true. What -- are the people relocated, we went | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
from hut to hut to look for those who could not take care of | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
themselves and we evacuated them. You are protecting people? We are. | :23:57. | :24:04. | |
We put a defensive position up where people could hide behind the | :24:04. | :24:11. | |
protective defence positions. Secondly, the SPLA opened fire on | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
the attackers. They moved out. If we had not done this, we would have | :24:16. | :24:21. |