Egemen Bagis - Turkish Minister for EU Affairs HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk.

Turkey is a rising power in a strategically vital region, but

does it have the ability to shape events beyond its borders?

Officials in an Karen mac would like to see turkey inside the EU

and provide a leadership in the Middle East. But both goals

remained elusive. My guess today is Turkey's Minister for the EU,

Egemen Bagis. Turkey is flexing its muscle, but is it having the

desired affect? Egemen Bagis, welcome to HARDtalk.

Good to be back. Turkey's message to Europe for a long time now has

been simple: We are a key regional power and we have major influence

across the Middle East. But if we look at what is happening in your

neighbour, Syria, today, that message does not seem to hold true.

Well, look at what is happening in the Arab Spring today. Syria is a

source of inspiration. People who risked their lives in Egypt,

Tunisia, Libya. They wanted to turn their country like Turkey. They

look at Turkey and they think, look at these Turks. They have democracy,

they have human rights. They have opposition, they have government,

they have laid the unions, they have NGOs. Yet they have the same

culture as we do. They live in the same geography. If they can do it,

why can't we? And that has been a very important question for them,

because for the last ten years, Turkey's democracy has been getting

stronger. Our Prime Minister has been re-elected by his people with

an increased margin of vote ratio for the third time, and he has

tripled per-capita income in this country. He has made his country

much more modern, much more liveable, much richer, and much

more transparent. All that has an influence throughout the region.

it an influence? Maybe it is an inspiration, but when you look at

what is happening in your immediate neighbour today, in Syria, your

government has sent a clear message to the Assad regime, saying that in

effect it is time for you to go. The way you have treated you people

is unacceptable. We will take all measures we can fall further

democratic reform in Syria. And it has made no difference. As we did

in Tunisia, and look at what has happened. You most immediate

neighbour. It has made no difference. But people still know

that if things could change in Libya, if things could change in

Egypt, things could definitely changed in Syria as well. It is not

the Syrian President to is stopping, it is the Security Council of the

United Nations. Some of the permanent preservation -- permanent

representatives have not given him the necessary measures. I think we

need to work with our friends in the United Nations. We need to show

that the international community is united and it will not look the

other way when a regime is killing its own people. If we cannot accept

the government bombarding its own cities, killing its own people.

you cannot accept it, the question becomes, what are you prepared to

do to stop it? Build an international consensus. Any action

has to be multinational. We are always against unique natural

actions against other countries. Turkey should not act alone,

neither should the UK, or the US, or Russia or China. But common

sense has to prevail. We have to sit together, look at the

opportunities, look at what is available and convince the

leadership in Syria they are on the wrong part. Let's get practical for

a moment. We will come back to the UN, but on a practical level, what

we see right now our Syrian forces besieging Homs. We see a

humanitarian crisis. We see dozens of civilians reported dead over

months and months. The question for you in Syria is partly one of

practicality. Argue, for example, prepared to see weapons flow across

your border from Turkey into the hands of the Syrian rebel forces?

It depends how that decision is made. If one country claims on

their rain that they have the right to flow weapons, it is not logical.

The Syrians have accused you of turning a blind eye to weapons

going across your border for months. Syrians have been planed the blame

game for quite a while. Syria has been harbouring PKK terrorism for

decades. In recent years they had started to behave. Now they are

blaming that Turkey is behind this organisation, or that organisation,

this is totally false. What Turkey wants to see his piece in the

neighbourhood. We have a saying in Turkish. If your neighbour's house

is on fire and you do not put it out, but fire will eventually burn

down your own home. Now we are trying to prevent fires. We want

stability and democracy and freedom for all. We do not want to fight,

we do not want wars. Your government has talked about a

peacekeeping force. There has been a suggestion that you might be

proactive in that, other with some leading Arab nations, to make a

sort of regional force that might go into Syria. What sort of

practical steps have you taken to making that happen? The first

practical step was to accept refugees. We are accepting many

refugees who have fled from Syria. Up to 20,000 Syrians have found a

safe haven in Syria. We have one cab city where more than 8,000

people have been provided with shelter, food, schools, health

needs. We are doing our best to help them, as their neighbour. Many

of our citizens have blood relations in Syria. We have been

living in the same geography for centuries. We care about these

people. We would like Syria to have their own territorial integrity, to

have their own democracy, to have their own richness and to live

happily. We are not after a war, we are not after anybody else's energy

resources or banned. We just want them to be happy. I understand that.

But the reality is that nobody in Syria at the moment appears to be

living happily. The UN Security Council Avenue appears to be closed

off for now. China and Russia, for the time being, are clearly not

going to allow resolution which allows any sort of international

intervention. Then we need to convince them what the other option

is to stop the bloodshed. So you are saying that Turkey will not,

even with partners in the Arab world, will not undertake any sort

of intervention without an United Nations Security Council

resolution? I am not taking anything of the table. Everything

is on the table. We need to discuss in the international community,

with our neighbours in Syria, in the region with our Arab neighbours,

and we need to find a win-win solution to the problem. Because

people are dying. There is bloodshed and there was a sick

mentality that is killing their own citizens. And we need to stop this.

What it takes is, we need to discuss. And we cannot find that

solution here on HARDtalk. That, we need to find in NATO or the UN and

in international circles. Your message, the Turkish government's

message to Bashar al-Assad, is that he has to go now. And you also say

that he has to face justice. He has to face some sort of International

Criminal Court or some sort of war crimes tribunal? If he thinks he

has enough popularity with his own people then he can reform his

country. He could have fair elections. And if his people elect

him, fine. But if not, he has to respect the will of his own people.

He must respect the democratic outcome after the reforms which she

has been promising for decades and which he has not delivered.

started this interview speaking about Syria even though you are the

European -- the Turkish minister for European affairs. Thank you for

reminding me. LAUGHTER. But they say that you are rising power which

Europe needs, that Turkey is a rising power. Europe is preoccupied

with so many of its own problems that it cannot see the light. It is

going through the turmoil of economic crisis, there is an

upcoming energy crisis, many politicians are terrified they will

lose power at the next elections. The commission is trying to keep

the Union together. So in that confusion, Turkey is trying to say,

hold on tight. Turkey is coming to your rescue. We can help. Turkey

coming to the rescue? The fact is that nobody wants to see Turkey

come through the door right now. You must be very frustrated, it has

been seven years since the official membership process began. What you

have at the moment is a completely frozen process. Only half of the

so-called chapters, the very things which must be gone through to tick

the boxes for Turkey's convergence with EU standards, they have not

been opened up. Now a new chapter at all has opened in the last year.

France has blocked all negotiation about meaningful accession

processes. You are stuck. Would you accept that? If you look at the

process from a negotiation point of view, you might think it is frozen.

But if you look at the process in terms of Turkey's reforms for

democracy, for conspiracy, for prosperity, for self-confidence,

the reforms are faster than ever. Let me give you a few examples.

After a gap of 80 years, the Greek Orthodox community held services at

Spooner monastery. -- Smyrna. For the first time since the founding

of the Republic, we have seen a President who has been to a place

of worship of the other white community. In a country where

people were afraid to admit that they were Kurds 20 years ago, we

now have 24 hours of Kurdish broadcasting on state television.

People of remark the region have been brought together by the Prime

Minister, and he has announced new programmes for them. -- Roma. At

the same time that France was trying to deport its robot people.

-- Roma. You say you are reforming. Let me give you a few other

examples which say that is not the case. Your relationship with Cyprus

- and no progress whatsoever. In fact, you have defiantly refused to

accept the euro that's demand that you open up your ports to Cypriot

traffic. We are ready to do what! Hang on. You say that if Cyprus

assumes the EU presidency, you will freeze relations with the entire EU.

No, we will not freeze relations with the EU. We were just ignore

their presidency. It is the same thing. No, it is not the same thing.

We will continue our relationship with the EU and with the member

states. But we cannot accept that a country we do not recognise will

assume leadership of the hold union. I will tell you why. We are ready

to open our air space and support to Greek Cypriot planes, provided

as the EU provides its own decision. EU states unanimously agreed to put

an end to the isolation of Cyprus, which means treating it cypress

like Taiwan. Many countries do not recognise Taiwan but they still

trade with Taiwan. But you have to accept the euro back as it is. And

the EU as it is includes Cyprus. The only member state implementing

this decision is southern Cyprus. Do you think it works for Turkey to

issue threats to the European Union? For example, last year you

said that when it came to the Cypriots beginning gas exploration

activity in the offshore area around Cyprus, you said, it is for

reasons like is that countries have warships. It is for reasons like is

that we have the equipment and trained our may be. It almost

sounds as though you are thinking Your country send warships all the

way to Argentina, so did not blame us. You want to join the club.

you want to join the club where there is then as? Do you want to

join the club which implement its own decisions? The EU has to

deliver on its promises. We have written guarantees. What is

happening in terms of the drilling, they are drooling in not

international waters. We have to find out who the oil and gas

belongs to? Does it belong to Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, Egypt? It

has not been decided. You say that Turkey has fundamentally changed.

You gave me a list of examples. I say to you, never mind a Cyprus,

when it comes to locking up journalists, when it comes to basic

freedoms of expression, Turkey has not changed. Give me the real

evidence. The Secretary General of the council in Europe, he was

recently in Turkey, he said there a 16,000 cases, 1,000 of which

concern media freedom. This has a chilling effect on freedom of

expression in your country. There is no journalist who has been

detained of his profession. But he caught journalists terrorists.

There are some of them who carry journalistic cards who had been

caught, robbing a bank. But they are not detained because of bribing

-- writing their articles. There are journalists who had written

much worse articles and they enjoy their right to continue doing that.

The Americans are deeply concerned. One person said, how can there be

intellectuals and journalists behind bars in a country that

really values freedom? I would not like to see one intellectual behind

any buy in any colic -- in any country. I would risk my own light

for them to wrist -- express their views. But being a member of the

media does not provide immunity to commit crimes. It sure does not in

Turkey. If someone is caught while robbing a bank, is summer is caught

while killing another, they are not going to get away just because they

happen to be journalists. When you come to capitals like London, you

talk to ministers about Turkey's continued determination to join the

EU, does it can say knew that international observers see Turkey

as 148 in a list of countries, in terms of the standards of a list of

free press, it has now put pokie down to 89 out of 167 countries,

when it comes down to basic democratic values. You are on the

same level as Venezuela. We are trying to fix that. I am not proud.

That is why we had introduced a judicial reform, that is why we are

trying to changed our laws. That is something that we inherited from

previous governments and we are trying to change that. We want the

people to change the constitution, and 58% of the Society supported

our demand for change. Only after that could wreak change the

structure of the judicial branch. - - we could change. You have been

saying for years that we are changing the judicial structure and

it has not happened yet. Mike government has been in power for

ten years. For the first 8.5 years, any time we attempted a judicial

decision, the court stop us. They issued its decisions to stop and

execution. Only after the referendum of 2010, could restart

are making real changes in the judicial reform. Right now, there

is a painting package in the Turkish parliament that is going to

reduce the detention period that is going to release many of the people

under detention. In 2005, the ratio of people in prisons was around 50-

50. Right now it is down to 28%. Recently, we passed a law regarding

bounced cheques, and 1,500 people were released. They are not

detained any more. 13% of the workload of the court has now gone

to mediators. But it is not just about the nitty-gritty of practical

reform, of the judiciary, it is also to do with language, the way

you deal with European member states. I'm thinking of France. You

have a profound problem with France. You have a profound problem with

the French parliament which took a decision to pass a new genocide law

which included the idea that if people deny the Armenian genocide,

bat will be a criminal offence in France. This is what the Prime

Minister of your country responded. He said, this is the politics of

racism and discrimination. Is that really what you think the French

are about when it comes to the law? We think the French constitutional

Court, who agreed with my prime minister, and they nullified that

parliamentary decision. That law no longer exists. But the fact is,

your Prime Minister is accusing France of being afraid of Turkey.

They collected signatures to take it to the High Court, and the High

Court agreed that the Bill is against the spirit of the French

Revolution. Is France afraid of Turkey? Not France, some people in

France are. Why on earth, after a difficult seven years, you at the

heart of it tried to persuade Europe to let Turkey in, why do you

continue with his, if you think that powerful forces in France are

afraid of Turkey? When a French President gets up and says, a

country that is aligned with the United States, a country that is

not European, a country that does not -- should not be in Europe, he

was not talking of Turkey, a French President name to Charles de Gaulle

was talking about the United Kingdom. Many years ago. We now say

the same argument used by some current French leaders against

Turkey. If your country does not mind fighting back and trying to

convince your neighbours to be a part of these grand peace project

or the European Union, why should my country defer? Turkey is

determined to be a part of the grandest piece project, which is

caught the European Union. But it is yet a continental peace project.

Turkey can turn it into a global peace project. The Prime Minister,

when you went to Eton is here, Egypt Mac -- Libya en Egypt, there

are many Western leaders who can go and talk about sex tourism and

democracy, but there are not too many who can do both. -- secular

society. The problem is you. That all these reasons why it is vital

for Europe and Turkey to be inside the EU, 22% of Turks have trust in

EU institutions, it was 51% are just a few years ago, Turks are

losing trust, they are losing faith, and the fact that they are losing

trust in an institution that is in economic crisis whereas your

country is growing 8% per year. They are losing trust because of

the narrow-minded statements by some European politicians. Europe

may have a problem right now in terms of their economy, but 50% of

my foreign trade is with Europe, 85% of foreign direct investment in

Turkey has come from the EU. 60% of the 32 million tourists that is a

turkey every year come from the EU. We do not have the right to say

that it is Europe's problem. We have to help Europe solve the

problem. For years, Turkey's big cell has

been at the very beginning that it could be a regional power that

Europe needs inside the club. The idea was that you had no problems

with your neighbours. Obviously, that is not true any more. We have

talked about Syria, the Iran, where the Iranians are supporting the

Assad regime much to your dislike. We can talk about Israel where your

relationship is in continue to decrease. You have plenty of

hy would Europe want to have you come

in when you actually now cannot even dinner but the neighbourhood?

We can deliver the neighbourhood. We can fix the relations with the

neighbours. It does not mean we will accept all kinds of atrocities

that our neighbours provided to dead people. You overstretched when

it came to Turkey's diplomatic reach. We want to transferred the

stability, the piece, to the neighbourhood, and we can do it

better up with the EU and E you can do it much better with Turkey.

Today's turkey is much better out than yesterday's Turkey, and

tomorrow will be even better. We are growing at 9%. We had a median

age of 28 when the median age in Europe is 44. We had access to the