Moncef Marzouki - President of Tunisia HARDtalk

guilty. That is the summary of the news.

Now it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to a special edition of

HARDtalk from Tunisia, the birthplace of the Arab Spring. I

have come to the presidential palace to meet Moncef Marzouki, who

has undergone at the most remarkable personal journey, from

political prisoner and exile to President of the Republic. He now

shares power with a coalition government, which is a mix of

Islamists and secularists, who are committed to rebuilding Tunisia

politically and economically. So, can this country, which has become

the test bed for the new politics of the Middle East, prove that

President Moncef Marzouki, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. For me it

is fascinating to be in this building, because here, so many of

the abuses of power that you campaigned against for years, were

perpetrated. From right here. How does it feel for you to now

occupied this building? Are very special. This place was actually

the Office of Ben Ali himself. So, yes, I am very surprised to be here.

The first day that I was here, I said, my goodness. I cannot believe

that I am here in the place where the tyrant was, where he ordered so

many people to be tortured and harassed and so forth. And now I am

here to do exactly the opposite. To promote and protect human rights.

It is fantastic, really. There is another thing that strikes me about

your position. You are the President in a new system, a new

Tunisia, where much of the power right now is vested in the

constitutional Assembly and the new elected government. There is a

danger that he will be used as a fig leaf, as a token for that

government. Because you have great respect in your country, and

because people remember you struggle. There is a problem here.

The government may use you. Do you agree with that? No, there is no

danger, because the power is shared by the President of the Republic,

the President of the government and the President of the constitutional

assembly itself. We meet once a week and we talk about all the

political issues. We make decisions together. There is no danger that

I'm just here as a facade. But the truth is that your party is a very

junior party in the government. The Prime Minister represents another

back, the moderate Islamist party. He is going to drive policy in this

country, not you. Well, you probably know that Ennahda are in a

coalition government with us. They cannot have sovereign government

without participation. They badly need us as we badly need them.

There is a common agreement among us that this country must be ruled

by a collision, by consensus, and we are reaching this consensus

every day. -- commission. We will talk about what that means for

domestic affairs in a moment, but let's talk about your role in

foreign affairs, we do have real powers. In essence, you regard

foreign affairs as your first and premiered demesne. I want to talk

to you about what is happening in your region, particularly what is

happening in Syria. Just a few days ago you said that you're prepared

to offer President Bashar other side asylum, safe haven, in Tunisia.

Why did you do that? Because, as you know, Tunisia was the first

country to have to the Arab Spring. To have this democratic revolution.

We feel that we have some responsibility towards Syria,

because this a real revolution is just after our own. So we feel that

we have that kind of moral responsibility towards Syrians. And

they are also Arabs, they are our brothers. I really cannot accept

that every day we have 100 people being killed by the regime. My

obsession is to stop the killing, I regard this as the main problem.

you regard a side as a murderer? Yes, of course. But the only way to

stop the killing is to have a year many solution. The President leaves

power and is given some way to go. Otherwise he will continue to kill

and to kill and to kill. And this is why we said, look, if the price

of peace in Syria is to give safe haven to this guy, why not? And I

propose to Russia, but Russia was not a very happy with that idea.

They said, why did you, did Tunisians, taking? And I said, OK,

if this is the price I have prepared to accept this price. It

is a high price but we are prepared to pay it because of life is more

important than justice. Have you had any official contact with the

Syrian government? No, and I doubt that the Syrians would ever

approach us. But we are ready. If this is the price, once again, I

will say that the life of thousands of Syrians is much more important

then just as. Really? It seems to be a difficult position for you to

take, because you are a human rights campaigner, a campaign

against justice and abuse, and he used it telling me that you think

Assad is a murderer, get you are prepared to offer him protection.

Yes, if he is ready to stop the killing. Because if he leaves Syria

now, probably you would save thousands of lives tomorrow. And

this is the most important thing. What about the UK Prime Minister

David Cameron, and the Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who have

both said very clearly that there will be a day of judgement for

Bashar al-Assad. He cannot escape it and he must not escape it.

think if they can be no solution this will probably be the end of

Bashar al-Assad. But if we can have this consensus to save lives, I do

not think it is a good solution, but it is much better than the

other one, which is to keep the killing going For. You have

referred to Tunisia as the birthplace of the Arab Spring. Do

you believe, when you see the reports, as the BBC has reported in

the last 24 hours, do you believe the terrible crimes like the murder,

this the team of the root of children in Homs, when you hear

these allegations do you believe that military intervention of some

sort to stop the killing is now an imperative? I am quite sure that if

there is military intervention there will be warned not only in

Syria but in the whole region. And this is what I am afraid of. This

is why I say that I wish the Syrian revolution was like the Tunisian

one, by the civil society and the police. This did not happen. But Mr

President, my point, in a way, is that international analysts are now

talking of what is happening in Syria in the same breath as they

describe the previous tragic events in Schiavone Cup or maybe even, to

a certain extent, in a row wander off. -- wander. --Rwanda. Doesn't

the international community have to make some sort of intervention?

is not always easy to find a peaceful solution. But what I am

afraid of is a new war, not only in Syria, but in the whole region.

This is probably the worst thing that could happen in this area.

This is why I keep saying that we must try every day for a peaceful

and consensus solution. recently hosted a Friends of Syria

meeting here in Tunis. We again saw the divisions in the Arab world, in

the Arab League, with some loud and powerful voices, including the

Qatar reach double bed, and the Saudis, it seemed that talk is not

enough any more. --Qatari government. And some are saying

that the Arab League should on the rebels. Do you support that? No it.

As a human rights activist, as a member of a country that has had

this peaceful and democratic revolution, I keep saying that we

must avoid alarming the opposition. I am still convinced that any

military intervention would be a worse solution, extremely dangerous,

and this is why I keep saying that we have to reach a political

solution. Of the Arab world is now desperately divided, isn't it?

that is true. What does that say about the Arab world post Arab

Spring? Maybe it suggests that far from coalescing around a clear

vision of an Arab future, divisions are growing? Yes, sure. Divisions

are growing and crisis is growing and instability is growing. We are

in a very difficult situation. But I think this crisis should go on,

because the outcome of it is probably a new Arab world,.

much blood is going to be spilled before this the Arab world is

achieved? Nobody knows. But at least the Tunisian example is being

followed by other nations. Let me ask you a wider question. The

current president of the General Assembly of the United Nations

happens to be the ambassador from Qatar. And he says that he is

gravely disappointed in the functioning of the United Nations.

He says that Russia and China's ability to thwart international

action on Syria on the Security Council suggests that the United

Nations itself is dysfunctional. you agree? Yes, of course. And I do

not seek any other solutions. -- C. I do not think it will be very easy

see what could happen in the future. Let me ask you something which

arises from our discussion of what should happen to President Assad,

and to Syria. It seems to me that your position, that you would be

protection, flies in the face of everything that Tunisia says and

once when it comes to former President Ben Ali. There he sits in

Saudi Arabia, the Tunisian government demands his extradition

and says that it is fundamental for justice to be delivered to Ben Ali.

In that context, you have a fundamental contradiction in your

position. You call Assad about right, and offer him production,

yet to demand the extradition of Ben Ali? You must understand that

opposition in Syria comes from the fact that we want to save lives.

Because we think that if Tunisia up for any other country does not

offer a safe haven to this dictator, he will go on killing, and my

obsession is to save lives. If we can do this, by giving this

opportunity to the dictator, I will say it OK. But you and I both know

that a cider will never asked to come and live in Tunisia. -- Assad.

My point is that maybe by offering this protection you have undermined

your case for the extradition of Do you think you have undermined

your position? You yes.

To you now think it is inconceivable that the Saudi

Arabians are going to extradite the former President?

They will never extradite it. -- end. It's my obsession with Syria

is to save the lives. I am very interested to say that

you will never get Ben Ali. When Tunisian to hear that frank

assessment, do you think they are going to wonder whether US

President are really committed to seeing a full accounting - a full

sense of justice - for what happened under Ben Ali's regime and

also what happened during those weeks of revolution?

We asked the Saudis many times about this. They said no and so we

will keep putting the pressure on Tunisia. But as I told you, I do

not think they will except that because they have their own

traditions aaditions awn laws and we do not want to have problems

with them about this because we has a social and economic ties with

Saudi Arabia. Do you mean that a business and

investment from Saudi Arabia is too important for you to make a big

noise about Ben Ali? It is important but it is also

important for us to have been nearly. So we have said that we

will maintain good relations with them but also to we will probably

try to convince them to change their position on Ben Ali.

You talk about unrest end this adaptation of youth. I think it is

perhaps most obvious in the area of the economy. Unemployment is rising

and is worse than before the revolution. Foreign businesses have

pulled out - perhaps 100 or so - because of instability. We have

seen strikes and Western Terrace at no longer going to Tunisia. --

Western tourists. We have to pay the price for more

than 20 years of corruption. We have to also pay the price for one

year of instability after the revolution. Now we are facing huge

challenges because of this high rate of unemployment. But we have a

lot of friends in Europe and the United States and Saudi Arabia are

ready to help us. We actually now feel that something is changing and

we are having a more and more tourists back.

The talk a good game about to your own people, it's just a couple of

months ago, he said that if workers do not stop there strikes there you

would -- their the country is committing collective suicide in

your words. He said if people do not stop striking, but you would

quit within six months. You stick by that?

Needed --. As I told you, we suffered from instability. The

country is now getting more and more stable day after day.

So you are backing away from this promise to resign if the economy is

still in a mess? I think there situation is

improving day after day. So that is a big economic challenge

but it is not the only challenge because of this country, it seems

to me, is still deeply polarised between those who would describe

themselves as secular and of those who would identify themselves very

much by their Muslim religion. Many would call themselves Islamists.

Again, since you became president, and that divide has not been

bridged and in some ways, it seems to be getting deeper.

I do not agree with you because I think all Tunisian its... Somewhere

secular and cular and slims and I think what we try and do in this

country is to it knowledge we are a divided society with complexities

and we have to accept that some of us are secular and some of us are

Muslims and slims and work together.

The everybody talks about working together but when the Prime

Minister for example told supporters after his vfter his v

are in the "sixth Caliphet", God- willing.

I did not accept that. I will never accept that kind of

Islamic state in this country. To use one to government to be

careful with their words? Yes. A then why did you refer to

those Tunisian so who followed the radical Egyptian cleric as

bacteria? I did not. I referred to him...

You called them abnormal and you call his followers bacteria.

I think... Yes, I compared this man to a bacterium but I did not anyone

else. We have to keep dialogue with them because they are our citizens

and we have to explain to them that this man is extremely dangerous.

Here in this country, hearing this man coming from Egypt and saying

that women have should be considered less than a man...

I understand and I feel your passion but you just told me that

Tunisians have to be careful with their language. You regret some of

yours? Yes. I apologised.

And that brings us back to the beginning in talking about your

role as president and working with the Prime Minister of the

opposition. Do you trust them and their agenda and to you believe

them when they say that what they want is a democratic pluralistic

society in which citizens' rights are at their core of Tunisia's

constitution? Are caused because -- of course

because Islamic beliefs are widespread. It is just like in

Europe with your differences. We have also magnate the Arab world

this spectrum of parties and Muslim beliefs. I do not have a problem

working with them. We agreed on women's rights and freedom of

expression and they agree so we have a coalition based on this

agreement. If they change their mind, we will probably change our

position towards them but for the moment, I do not see any reason not

to trust them. A final thought. Earlier, you gave

me an interesting hint about perhaps with you had not decided

whether to run as president when the interim constitution is

replaced by the long-term constitution. You said something

interesting. You said your own daughters are very much advising

you not to run and to be a short- term President.

Yes. The why Abba doing that and why are

you not going to heed their advice necessarily?

A am a writer and a physician. They probably think I could serve my

country more in the Human Rights fields.

I think I can be seduced by power but I can also be disgusted by

power. I would probably make my choice but not today aot today aore

you. A final thought on this. I wonder

whether you are also disgusted by the fact that Tunisia's example on

what is happening in this country is so clearly ends tragically not

happening in so many other parts of the Arab world and UK have, as

president and head of state, to deal with so many other Arab

leaders. Theaders. The 'The Press' you ought discussed you as well?

I am very proud of my country. I am proud of the way we lead is

peaceful and democratic revolution and proud of the way week received

more than 300,000 refugees from Libya. So really I am very proud of

Tunisia and our people. But now I am upset about what will be there

at the future because we are facing huge challenges from social and

economic points of view and we are living in a dangerous world. We

have to be careful of the situation in Libya and Nigeria.

But I hope was that what happened here would spread and it would be a

positive contagious moved. That did happen rarely and -- that