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television programmes. That is it from me. The days time | :00:08. | :00:13. | |
now for HARDtalk. An information revolution is | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
sweeping through the Middle East. No longer can state media | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
organisations beat their audiences Propaganda with any confidence that | :00:22. | :00:30. | |
it will be swallowed. My guest is a journalist who knows what it means | :00:30. | :00:39. | |
to serve an authoritarian regime. He was the chief of news in Egypt's | :00:39. | :00:49. | |
:00:49. | :01:13. | ||
broadcaster. Is the Arab world are Welcome to HARDtalk. You have had | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
plenty of time now to reflect on those momentous days of revolution | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
back in early 2011. Two you have any sense of shame about your role | :01:24. | :01:33. | |
in what happened? -- do you have? Absolutely not. I have done my | :01:33. | :01:40. | |
professional job with the maximum professionalism I can. I did a roll | :01:40. | :01:50. | |
:01:50. | :01:52. | ||
of saving the country. In the circumstances I was in. I managed | :01:52. | :01:58. | |
to stop, prevent any sort of conflict or clashes between the | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
army and the presidential palace when I decided to take the decision | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
to announce the Statement number one for the army without going back | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
to any... You are racing ahead to some of the detail of what happened | :02:13. | :02:21. | |
in those 18 days. Shame is what I started this. I tell you why - I | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
wonder if you have pondered the words of a number of your own staff, | :02:25. | :02:33. | |
people employed by Egypt radio and television, who have condemned the | :02:33. | :02:43. | |
operation that you were leading. For example, one person to -- who | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
spent years working there said state television waged an | :02:47. | :02:56. | |
information war against democracy activists. I'm afraid some of these, | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
it was just a private matter of the government. I don't want to go | :03:00. | :03:08. | |
through the names but nobody resigned at the time. She resigned | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
shortly afterwards. Many refuse to to show up and went to join the | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
demonstration. No-one resigned at the time. I will tell you the | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
situation... It does not mean she is not wrong. She says "There were | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
people running Egypt's state television at the time had tried to | :03:30. | :03:37. | |
deal legitimise the protesters and smear of the revolution". We did | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
our job at the time as professionals under pressure. I had | :03:42. | :03:50. | |
three choices to make. Either to do as any state television was doing, | :03:50. | :04:00. | |
:04:00. | :04:03. | ||
to be a public relations for for the regime. -- PR tool. Choice | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
number two - to leave the place. Choice number three is to take the | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
responsibility, as you understand it, do your job as you understand | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
it and as you can under the pressure we had at the times. | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
keep talking about the pressure. You did, did you not, received | :04:24. | :04:34. | |
:04:34. | :04:36. | ||
calls saying you must keep the voices of protesters off air. The | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
first time, the first period starting from the 25th them to 2nd | :04:42. | :04:52. | |
:04:52. | :04:53. | ||
February, at the time I was in the middle of the worst crisis. Parts | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
of the body are fighting against each other, each one trying to | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
control the media. You make it sound like a civil war and it was | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
not like that at all. People wanted to go on the streets to make plain | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
their desire to see a new Egypt, to see the Mubarak regime indent. | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
not talking about the demonstrators, I'm talking about the state, the | :05:18. | :05:26. | |
government of the presidential palace. I am not asking you to go | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
into the politics of the palace. I am asking why the state television | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
news did not show the scenes in Tahrir Square, day after day, | :05:38. | :05:45. | |
starting on 25th January. Why did she keep them off air and white | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
television repeatedly talked about the violence being undertaken, | :05:51. | :06:00. | |
according to your reports. afraid also it is not accurate | :06:00. | :06:10. | |
:06:10. | :06:13. | ||
information. We didn't call it the demonstrators from us at all. -- | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
didn't call them thugs. I had instructions not to open the | :06:19. | :06:25. | |
telephone line with people in Tahrir Square. First I stopped any | :06:25. | :06:34. | |
one, people people don't like them and are very loyal to the regime. I | :06:34. | :06:44. | |
:06:44. | :06:45. | ||
asked people already who have a sort of respect. The other thing, | :06:45. | :06:55. | |
:06:55. | :07:02. | ||
like a cat can right at the time. - - cat and rat at the time. Our | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
cameras were destroyed in the first few days at the square. We were | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
under siege from the army and demonstrators at the time. We could | :07:12. | :07:20. | |
not go out with our camera without permission from the army. Right but | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
it is more of a question of discussion the difficulties of the | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
situation when it comes to logistics. You were an employee of | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
the government, answerable to the information minister who sat in the | :07:33. | :07:40. | |
same building as you. You were a device of the Mubarak regime, Wu Di | :07:40. | :07:50. | |
:07:50. | :07:51. | ||
not? Is that a judgement or make a question? It is a question. I was a | :07:51. | :07:59. | |
professional who except at a certain time to work with them. -- | :07:59. | :08:09. | |
:08:09. | :08:11. | ||
who accepted. Were you a member of the ruling National Democratic | :08:11. | :08:21. | |
:08:21. | :08:30. | ||
Party? I was a member. You cannot considerate as a sort of, it is not | :08:30. | :08:38. | |
like the Ba'ath Party. If you wanted to be independent, fair- | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
minded, accountable as a journalist running Egyptian television, why | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
did you feel it was right to be a member of the ruling party? It was | :08:48. | :08:58. | |
:08:58. | :09:05. | ||
not take party, it is a part of the state it's self.... half of the | :09:05. | :09:15. | |
:09:15. | :09:15. | ||
people in Tahrir Square were members of the party. One MP now in | :09:15. | :09:22. | |
the parliament was a member. A lot of people were a member. It is a | :09:22. | :09:30. | |
part of the regime and if you can go through a few thousand years ago, | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
Egypt was a central society and the power was central. A lot of people | :09:36. | :09:46. | |
:09:46. | :09:47. | ||
are dealing with the regime. They hate it and Lovett at the same time. | :09:47. | :09:55. | |
-- and love it. As the member, Diddy take any direction from the | :09:55. | :10:05. | |
:10:05. | :10:09. | ||
party, Diddy folly any of their remarks was that -- did you follow? | :10:09. | :10:18. | |
You know... My decisions which were, at the time, five years on | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
television... You know as well as I do that there are many people who | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
want a real investigation of exactly what happened inside state | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
media during those days of revolution. There have been efforts | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
by people who want you to testify in a court. Allegations that staff | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
members are answerable to who undertook fake telephone calls | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
pretending to be members of the public. It has never been tested in | :10:49. | :10:59. | |
:10:59. | :11:00. | ||
a quarter -- court of the law. you are saying has been tested and | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
they confirm that what the allegation, it was a fake phone | :11:06. | :11:13. | |
call and they said one of the names. They made a test, a voice test and | :11:13. | :11:22. | |
confirmed that this is not true. This guy already made allegations, | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
who said that against him... Just to clear it up, you have not | :11:27. | :11:34. | |
testified? You can test my book... It is rather different to going | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
into a court. What you like talking about his part of something we are | :11:42. | :11:49. | |
really proud of because at the time, when we had this, nobody, the state | :11:50. | :11:57. | |
itself, no power and we have just the Armin and a few offices in the | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
TV to take calls from people who are already suffering from attack | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
at the time... A final thought about these days of revolution. In | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
the end Mubarak was toppled, the army shot him aside. As you said | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
earlier, you took the decision to air the army's emergency statements | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
from the beginning without consulting the presidential palace. | :12:22. | :12:32. | |
:12:32. | :12:32. | ||
That is a sign of your realisation I realised that Mubarak was | :12:32. | :12:40. | |
finished. This was the time to finish the job of. I knew from the | :12:41. | :12:47. | |
beginning that Mubarak should make a hard decision. He did not take it. | :12:47. | :12:55. | |
This is why the army was convinced. Any kind of pressure should be | :12:55. | :13:05. | |
:13:05. | :13:08. | ||
taken. I took this action from the army, the right decision. It is not | :13:08. | :13:15. | |
because he was going away. I want to straighten out one final thing | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
before we move on. After she was corner, who suffered the | :13:21. | :13:28. | |
humiliation of having some of your own or staff trying to overtake you. | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
You were only saved because there were soldiers in the building. What | :13:33. | :13:43. | |
sort of message does that send to you? This happens on a 13th | :13:43. | :13:53. | |
:13:53. | :13:54. | ||
February. I resigned after six weeks. There was a lot of | :13:54. | :14:03. | |
demonstrations. I got a phone call from one of my colleagues. They | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
were asking for races on sour please. We are talking about 20% of | :14:08. | :14:18. | |
:14:18. | :14:23. | ||
people. When you are talking about people chanting a political slogan, | :14:23. | :14:32. | |
I had my people believing in what I've told them. We are working for | :14:32. | :14:42. | |
:14:42. | :14:42. | ||
her a nation, not a person Moree regime. Time to broaden the | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
conversation beyond the days of the revolution. You say you were | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
working for the nation. You regard yourself as an Independent | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
journalist trying to uphold a journalistic standards in a | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
difficult situation. Let us consider the sort of compromises | :14:58. | :15:05. | |
you had to make rata time working for a state television and radio. | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
You acknowledge that the 2005 election was a sham. And if you | :15:11. | :15:20. | |
continue to work for the government. I wonder why you did that. | :15:20. | :15:30. | |
:15:30. | :15:30. | ||
presidential election of 2005. This was the parliamentary election. We | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
had the best coverage for the election. We were the most balanced | :15:34. | :15:43. | |
at the time. My point is that you, in the book, say that the democracy | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
that the regime allowed to was a sham. And yet in that very same | :15:49. | :15:58. | |
year you continue to working in a state television. Are you saying | :15:58. | :16:08. | |
:16:08. | :16:12. | ||
that it was fair? It was fair. You can share it with the Muslim | :16:12. | :16:21. | |
Brotherhood. There were three stages. The first stage was there. | :16:21. | :16:31. | |
:16:31. | :16:32. | ||
The second and third was a disaster. There were big mistakes. You seem | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
to be rewriting history. You write that your relationship with the | :16:36. | :16:44. | |
regime. You talk about the growing arrogance of the state apparatus. | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
This is the regime you decided to work for. You're given high-profile | :16:50. | :17:00. | |
:17:00. | :17:02. | ||
interviews. The questions were gone over with you before the interview. | :17:02. | :17:09. | |
You say that he respected Hosni Mubarak very much and that he | :17:09. | :17:19. | |
respected you. This was the regime that ruled Egypt for 30 years. Most | :17:19. | :17:26. | |
of the people were dealing with the Mubarak regime. They were looking | :17:26. | :17:36. | |
for a man at to have this blessing. -- minutes. Let us be as fair as we | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
can be to the people of Egypt who have looked at what has happened to | :17:41. | :17:48. | |
their country. They see corruption, exploitation, a widening gap | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
between the rich and poor, many senior officials convicted of | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
corruption, they even see your old boss sentenced to seven years in | :18:00. | :18:07. | |
jail for misappropriation of public funds. Not a single breath of this | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
was reported by you and your news teams in the five years you were in | :18:11. | :18:21. | |
:18:21. | :18:25. | ||
charge. We reported more than that. We talked about corruption. I was | :18:25. | :18:35. | |
:18:35. | :18:35. | ||
trying to have this kind of freedom against oppression. We can go | :18:35. | :18:41. | |
through everything. Are you telling me that he went after Hosni | :18:41. | :18:51. | |
:18:51. | :18:52. | ||
Mubarak? We know that hundreds of millions of US dollars... D's was | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
discovered after the uprising. you do any investigative | :18:58. | :19:08. | |
:19:08. | :19:10. | ||
journalism? This was something I was trying to do. We had people | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
signing contracts with us to work for her my team of. We were trying | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
to train journalists for investigative reporting. We were | :19:20. | :19:29. | |
trying to improve the quality of the journalism. In 2007 I thought | :19:29. | :19:39. | |
:19:39. | :19:43. | ||
many times, I discovered that the winds of change was not a true | :19:43. | :19:52. | |
thing at the time. I thought I should resign. Do you wish you had? | :19:52. | :20:02. | |
:20:02. | :20:04. | ||
To tell you the truth, maybe yes. But you did not. There are so many | :20:04. | :20:12. | |
important things a need to talk to you about. I did not, because it is | :20:12. | :20:19. | |
either doing what every you can do, or leave it for someone else. It | :20:19. | :20:29. | |
:20:29. | :20:30. | ||
would be a disaster. Egyptian people can notice the improvement. | :20:30. | :20:38. | |
They can compare between January 2005 and when I left. I want to | :20:38. | :20:45. | |
bring us up to date and consider where Egypt is today. It is being | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
controlled by the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces. We have seen | :20:50. | :20:56. | |
many dissident journalists arrest an put into military detention. We | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
have seen thousands of other people go to the military court system. We | :21:00. | :21:08. | |
have seen it freedom of expression time and again stamped upon by the | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
Supreme Council of the Armed Forces. Where is Egypt's revolution today | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
when it comes to freedom of expression. Egypt is passing | :21:18. | :21:25. | |
through a difficult time. The country is being pushed towards | :21:26. | :21:35. | |
:21:36. | :21:38. | ||
disaster. We are trying to think about the future. Nobody is | :21:38. | :21:46. | |
challenging what they are doing. That is the problem. There is no | :21:46. | :21:56. | |
:21:56. | :21:56. | ||
freedom of discussion. There is nobody in jail now. Many of them | :21:56. | :22:03. | |
have suffered weeks and months inside military prison. I am | :22:03. | :22:11. | |
against any decision taken against a freedom of expression. I have | :22:11. | :22:19. | |
told my friends and colleagues. I push for transparency. You have to | :22:19. | :22:29. | |
:22:29. | :22:30. | ||
know how to deal with them. The Army are not ready for it. Isn't it | :22:31. | :22:38. | |
a wider question them that? Consider what is happening in Syria. | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
Too many people in the Arab world still do not get it. The | :22:44. | :22:50. | |
Information Control they used to exercise is no longer tenable. It | :22:50. | :22:56. | |
is not possible for them to control information the way they used to. | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
do not think people are trying to control information and the media. | :23:03. | :23:13. | |
:23:13. | :23:16. | ||
I came last night from Egypt. why have some stations been shut | :23:16. | :23:26. | |
:23:26. | :23:28. | ||
down? We have not got time for the long version. I have asked the | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
question at the very beginning, is the Arab world really ready for a | :23:32. | :23:42. | |
:23:42. | :23:47. | ||
free media? We have two media's - the private and state media's. We | :23:47. | :23:55. | |
have a lack of this code of ethics. It should be done by the media | :23:55. | :24:05. | |
:24:05. | :24:05. | ||
people themselves. We should be supervising and observing the media. | :24:05. | :24:11. | |
I know you have plans to set up a Pan Arabic media organisation. Do | :24:11. | :24:18. |