Guy Scott - Vice President of Zambia HARDtalk

the river. It is now time for HARDtalk.

At last, sub-Saharan Africa has a positive economic story to tell.

But is it being matched by improved governance? Our Africa's leaders

making best use of the current surge in economic growth to tackle

endemic poverty? By guest today is Guy Scott, recently appointed vice-

president of Zambia. He is a trained scientist, and ex-farmer,

and happens to be the most senior white official in post-colonial

Africa. It is tempting to see him as a symbol of the Continent no

longer trapped in its past. But is Vice-President Guy Scott, will come

too HARDtalk -- HARDtalk. Thank you. I have just talked about your

status as the most senior white official in post-colonial Africa. D

see yourself as a symbol of change? Perhaps. An indication that things

may be turning the corner. A lot has happened in Africa apart from

the becoming vice-president. We were talking earlier about the fact

that most Zambians and Africans have access to SMS, the internet,

satellite television. There is a much more cosmopolitan feel about

Africa and it is not just to do with me. I'm a symptom of that loss

of colonial consciousness and a wish to join the world.

appreciate the degree of change in Africa. Nonetheless, it is less

than five decades since independence and we're talking

about a country where they row over 13 million people and only a few

thousand of them are white. A few hundred actually. I would imagine,

in fact I know, that there are some Zambians that still have a problem

with your seniority. They rather few in number. I would not be able

to. At many even with the fingers of one hand. The chief from a

northern province says that your presence in the Vice-President's of

this signals the Independent struggle. That is politics. He

threw his arms around me the other day. It is grandstanding? Just a

bit of grandstanding in the run-up to the election. This seems to be

some debate about whether you would be legally entitled to become

president. After all the President is in his 70s. If anything were to

happen to him, which are legally be able -- would you legally be able

to take the presidency? Under the current constitution, which was

tweaked by a previous president, to exclude our first president from

standing again because he was a son of Malawi missionaries. He was a

local African but not a Zambian. That tweak would mean I

automatically became acting president if the current President

were, God forbid, to leave this earth. I would not be entitled to

compete in the subsequent election. It may all be academic because the

new constitution is in draft. It should go to a referendum this year.

I understand it is likely to say you have to be his NBN. When you

asked about this remarkable status you have in Zambia, you said that

people are not nostalgic for the exploitation that came with

colonialism but there are perhaps for the standards that we saw in

colonial times when you went to hospital. There was medicine at

school. There were books. Is there something about the colonial

experience that Africans look back on with a sense of nostalgia?

a difficult question because it keeps sliding into that thing that

people are the started for colonialism, which people are not.

But I think people are nostalgic for efficiency and the lack of

corruption which may be characterised in the minds of all

the people... But to a sort of suggesting that white men are more

competent? But that is why you have raised it because it is more

dangerous. Some Zambians might listen to that thought and did not

like it at all. Many of the Zambians what -- have voted for me.

What then examine their own hearts and beliefs. All this pussyfooting

about racial self-awareness, I think the time for it is over. One

should not make excuses for people. One should also not be nasty. I

think it -- racism is abhorrent. It is disgusting. But at the same time,

we should be honest with ourselves and face the challenges that are

there. And at a most Africans at that point now? At least 50% of

young Africans at the point where they do not make excuses for

themselves, saying, I am part of a disadvantaged heritage. Everybody

now has the idea that you make your own way in life and set your own

standards. But when we talk of disadvantage, there is plenty of it

in Zambia. There is a decent growth rate, but also 60% of the

population living on $2 a day or less. There is joblessness and a

massive economic drag. How do you want the president intend to turn

that around? -- and to the President. I think we have begun to

turn it around to. There is a situation in Zambia called a lead

capture where there is a privileged class of people which is prospering.

You can have a traffic jam consisting entirely of the calls

consisting -- worth $80,000 or more each. At the same time, you have

people with $2 or less a day. That is in town. In rural areas it gets

translate top line GDP growth into economic transformation to address

endemic poverty. Absolutely. D had an answer? It depends how long you

have it. Adding Zambians would like the very quick version. They accuse

think Zambians. He said he would turn the country around in 90 days.

Now they are looking around and saying, whereas the evidence that

you can back the words with action? The council's Oram playing people

out to clean the streets and some are Terry's -- cemeteries, the

agricultural distribution of goods has been cleaned up and made to

serve the poor rather than the influential people. The newspapers

are worth reading. You have work and freedom of expression? Oh yes.

If you do read the newspapers, you also see that there is real concern

amongst investors about some of the things you have done. Reversing the

privatisation for big telecommunications companies,

putting a new level of frothy tax on the big mining companies, these

are things which investors looking at Zambia are clearly worried about.

I would take issue with that. There are some young journalists who

perhaps have no sense of what really is a story and what is not

who have taken up for example the telecommunications story.

Privatisation which begins in the Cayman Islands attract a certain

amount of scepticism. We looked into it and found that it was a

bend deal. Every serious investor knows this. We promised to reverse

it in our campaign and we did. to have led some outside analysts

to wonder about long-term economic stability. Pitch ratings agency

have downgraded their outlook on Zambia from stable to negative, and

that is not good new perhaps not bid professionalism by

Fitch. If they were to downgrade the US for example, they would

throw dozens of very experienced analysts at it he would produce a

balanced solution. If you're just going to throw one of two 25-year-

olds to listen to a bit of gossip at cocktail parties... I'm sure

that Fitch would tell you that they did not just do that. They have

been monitoring your country for a long time and they worry about some

of the economic signals. They also monitored some of the sub Prime

mortgages and gave them AAA ratings a few years ago. It's not get too

excited about casual observation. People are too inclined to

pessimism over Africa. When they hear a remark, they say, they were!

We told you was going to fail! This has got to stop. I wonder whether

you feel if their -- that there are certain people who are not ready to

accept what you said about redistributing wealth around the

country. It seemed to want to take some of the world in the mining

industry and make sure it reaches the streets. The mines themselves

have not uttered a word about their role to ratings -- their royalty

percentages. It doubled to 6% in our last Budget. But they worry

about a windfall tax. We have made it clear that there is not one.

They will not ever be one? I will not say ever. We could both be long

dead and they made -- there may be a windfall tax in the offing. But

we are run very good terms with the mining companies. The things that

have held them back are human settlement issues. The mining

industry's famous for displacing people and poisoning rivers, and we

don't want that. But there's no been holding back an account of the

tax form a lot. If we're talking about mining, we have to talk about

China. It seems that you and the President both made a great play in

criticising some of the Chinese companies in your country and

threatened to remove them if they did not raise their standards.

threatened to remove themselves. We said they would raise their

standards and their game and they said they would pull out. They had

a Chinese ambassador that went to the conference of the ruling party

before we took it over and said, you must vote for this party. To

his fellow diplomats. As soon as we won, he was called back and another

Chinese ambassador was sent in and everything is fine. I wonder

authorities because you are playing politics? You have said that your

campaign was about China bashing. He said it was a shock tactic,

which brings me back to the point about populism. He were playing

games with that China bashing strategy? Wedd has politics begin

to be populism and why does it become simply popular? Word has it

become identifying problems that people feel every day? But you had

no intention of taking on the We are not racist. The issue was,

whether Chinese plane by the Bulls? And there was a widespread

perception that they were not. We wanted to make sure they would play

by the Bulls. You were quoted as saying that the Chinese have a

reputation for being somewhat inhumane. Do you stand by that?

They have a reputation for that, yes, in Zambia. They have a

reputation for, we had an example, where the Chinese management in a

coal mine started shooting at the workers, with bird shot from a

shotgun, admittedly, but nonetheless. And it must be said,

that staff were acquitted. witnesses did not materialise at

the trial. Why that should be, we do not know. But the question is, I

suppose, you say that everything is hunky-dory with the new Chinese

ambassador, but does Zambia still see the merit with tying much of

its economy and its growth to Chinese Investment? We have seen it

elsewhere. Not long ago I spoke to the end gold and Foreign Minister

about the same issue. Is it the right strategy for Zambia?

Chinese are part of a solution. They only produce 10% of the Cup by

in Zambia. There is also Indian Investment, American investment.

The trade is worth billions for Zambia. They are not our biggest

trade partner by any means. Our Zambian contractors can only borrow

from the banks at 25% or 30%, was the Chinese can borrow from the

Chinese banks much more. That is a real issue which should be talking

about. But the politics surrounding China, they thought they could get

away with more than they could, and now things are fine. Now things are

fine? Things are very fine. the President said that he was

allergic to corruption, but if one looks at the record, both he and

use served four years in governments of Zambia in the past

which most Zambians would now regard as being intimately corrupt.

I think that is unfair. You cannot take everybody in the ship and say

that they are responsible for hitting the iceberg, or whatever

ships do. But you work for Frederick Chiluba, and we now know

from a British court case, where a British court said that he stole

millions of pounds from the Zambian people, and described his

extravagant lifestyle and wardrobe, you knew the man, you knew he was

corrupt. What can you do? You walk into cabinet, and you see a chap in

a new suit, and you say he must be corrupt? But are you saying you had

no idea he was creaming money from the Treasury? If I had such an idea

what should I have done? Should I have just walked out and left the

thing? No, but the point is, you and your President said you were

allergic to corruption. There were resignations which left him high

and dry at the end of the day. In 1996, several of his ministers

resigned, as he was warming up to his third term. It is very

difficult to resign. The vice- president did resign on the case of

alleged corruption, but it was never proven. It is very difficult.

When you lie in a government it does not mean that you're on the

bridge of the boat. -- when you are in a government. There are kitchen

cabinets, there are groups within groups. I certainly had my hands

full with drought and one thing and another at another at I know it

you're running agriculture at the time, but if we think about now,

and you're clear commitment to brute out corruption, what you have

done is fire quite a few individuals in your first few

months in office. That includes senior policemen and senior figures

at the Central Bank. But critics say that you need to focus on

changing the system, not just getting rid of individuals. You

must reform the system so that it cannot be corrupted so easily.

those critics get themselves elected and did a job. It is not as

easy as one might hope from looking at it from outside. You have to

play with one eye on the political implications of various individuals

being fired, and so on and so forth, but it is taking place. And it is

taking place with a lot more vigour than it has taken place under any

other leader in Zambia. A quick thought about something that the

outside world cares a great deal about, which is the notion that if

international aid money is still given to Zambia, it is given

correctly. This ties into the discussion of corruption. But there

are other ways of looking at it. As Zambian author said that aid in

countries like Zambia has frankly been a profound negative in many

different ways for the Zambian people and the Zambian economy. Do

you agree? Given that your country still gets much international aid,

should that aid end? That author does bring attention to some real

issues, but she also over sympathise. To say that all aid

given to M B has no use for almost, that is not a very useful comment.

-- given to Zambia. She said it was only the private sector that could

generate the growth that would help Zambia. She also said it was only

the Chinese. I suppose they are the private sector by some definition,

but not really. Given that your country has 50% of its revenue

still coming from international aid, do you want that to continue? --

15%. We want it to continue, but we wanted spent two more effect. The

interest rates that I mentioned lb are paralysing Zambia. They are

paralysing the private sector. We are going to war against those

interest-rate and I expect to win that war. Let me ask you are

somewhat different question. About the culture and values systems of

Africa. Not so long ago on HARDtalk I interviewed the President of

Uganda, and we talked a lot about cultural values and African

attitudes to homosexuality. That is something that has come up in your

country as well, because there is a confusion right now in Zambia about

whether being gay is actually illegal. As vice-president, you

believe that her Mr Bazi is a legal in your country? Yes. The legal

situation is that it is illegal. Except your constitution, written

in the 1990s, explicitly defence many human rights, which many

people in Zambia say that they should be taken seriously. The only

way to decide that would have somebody take it to the Supreme

Court and argue. I am just the vice-president. You're just the

vice-president, much means you are the number two. The second most

important man in the country. He was a chance for you to speak to

the Zambian people. Should the constitution makes it plain that

homosexuality between consenting adults should no longer be

criminalised in your country? don't know. I am asking for your

do you lobbying for? What I belief is that sleeping dogs should be

left to lie, so to speak. This issue can create extremism. There

are fundamentalists on one side who would happily stoned to death

anybody who was leaning towards homosexuality, let alone practising

it. On the other hand there are liberal fundamentalists who would

be very insistent and noisy. And you would get quite a ruckus if you

went in there and tried to give ground to either side. Don't you

yourself have core principles? You just describe the totally pragmatic

view. But don't you have any core principles which would allow you to

have a view about whether homosexuality should be or should

not be a criminal offence in Zambia? You cannot concentrate on

everything. You cannot make everything an issue. Most people in

Zambia, for example, take capital punishment. That is a core issue.

It is as much an ethical issue as homosexuality is. Capital

punishment for murder. We in Zambia have a very noisy debate about it,

because we have not executed anybody for 15 years. It is

important that we come to a position. Do we join the rest of

the world, which is rapidly coming of capital punishment, or not? Why

do you want me to take a highly controversial and hysteria

provoking topic, which at the moment is hurting very few people,

if any, and stick it in the foreground? That is a highly

contentious statement. It brings us back your original claim that there

is a new cosmopolitanism in Africa. How far do you think that process

is going to go? I think it is going to follow, I would guess, for the

world history. Remember, when Britain handed independence over to

Zambia, homosexuality in Britain was an offence. Capital punishment

in Britain was a fact. All right? So you are not looking at us been