Browse content similar to Paul McKeever - Chairman, Police Federation of England and Wales. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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been told it's safe to return to their homes. A quarry lake near | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
Pennal had sprung a leak, forcing the emergency services to relieve | :00:05. | :00:13. | |
the pressure on its wall. Now it is time for HARDtalk. The police in | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
Britain, used to being revered, respected and admired at home and | :00:15. | :00:24. | |
abroad, find themselves under a heavy black cloud. With allegations | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
corruption denting trust, the force now also faces dramatic cuts to its | :00:27. | :00:37. | |
:00:37. | :00:37. | ||
budget and changes to its structure. My guest today is the chairman of | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
the Police Federation in England and Wales. Paul McKeever says | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
proposed government reforms could lead to the destruction of the | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
police as we know it. But with the force untouched by change for | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
decades, is now not an ideal opportunity to shape up for the | :00:48. | :00:58. | |
:00:58. | :01:17. | ||
challenges of the 21st century? Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
the police in crisis? I think it is heading for crisis at the moment, | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
going through the most extraordinary change in the UK, | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
particularly within England and Wales. This is unprecedented. | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
Everything is happening at once. The government has a right to | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
introduce change, but there is so much happening we think there will | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
be problems when we get to the end of the programme we are doing at | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
the moment. In 2008 the then British Home Secretary Jacqui Smith | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
told Parliament that the British police were the envy of the world. | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
Indeed, yes. And yet now they are faced with the Leveson Inquiry | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
about the relationship between the police and media. And the riots of | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
last summer. Are you still the envy of the world? When I speak to | :02:10. | :02:17. | |
colleagues in Australasia, Africa, the Far East, they do hold us in | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
high regard because they realise that when there are crises in the | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
system we actually do something about them rather than let them | :02:23. | :02:31. | |
fester. We do not want things such as corruption in the British police | :02:31. | :02:37. | |
service. We have a reputation for being very honest. You do have that | :02:37. | :02:44. | |
reputation for openness and honesty very much abroad. However, if I can | :02:44. | :02:51. | |
just quote a couple of European newspapers. AE Berlin newspaper | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
rights that Britain has lost faith now in every authority - the banks, | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
politicians, media and also the police. Another newspaper says the | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
riots have many causes but include its strong opposition and bad | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
relationships between the people and the police. A German paper | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
talking about the ongoing inquiry looking into the relationship | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
between the press, police and politicians. They say it showed the | :03:23. | :03:30. | |
British public that there politicians were a farce, calling | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
police money-grabbing. That is an extreme view of what is happening | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
in this country. We recognise there are problems and we're proud of | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
having a free and liberal democracy and Prague of protecting it. I | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
think we have some of the highest ratings of any working in these | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
professions. The only professions which score higher than last are | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
doctors and nurses. And when you think of the type of people we deal | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
with, the kind of people that do not want to come into contact with | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
police officers, and yet we score ratings in the 70s. It does not | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
give the same picture as those you up a train. A crime survey in March | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
showed that less than half had confidence in the ability of the | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
police to deal with crime and the anti-social behaviour. Research | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
commissioned last year by victim Support showed that people who | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
suffered crime and therefore came into contact with the police and | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
the Criminal Justice System where 20% less likely to feel confident | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
in police officers than those who had not had direct contact with the | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
police. Doesn't that worry you? have to prove ourselves with every | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
generation which come through. When you listen to Bernard Hogan-Howe, | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
the Commissioner of the police, he is very clear that we have to | :04:54. | :05:02. | |
engage with the public. Uniquely, in the world, we police by consent. | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
We do not carry guns. It is important that we get it right with | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
public. But you're not getting right, are you? We hear that people | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
who come into contact with you are losing faith. I think we are | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
getting it right. I was at the funeral and memorial service of PC | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
David Rathband recently. Colin Washington spoke about the values | :05:27. | :05:37. | |
in which -- British policing. The sort of values that people still do | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
value in this country within British police officers. Most | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
people do still have trusting in policing. You say most people - do | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
you really believe that? In the late 19th century, the first | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
instances of policing by consent. The issue that the police were the | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
public and the public were the police. It does not seem like that | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
these days - look at the riots. is vitally important that we are | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
part of the public and the public were part of the police, that we | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
are citizens. We have to continually reinforce that message | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
and have the confidence of the public. If there is work to be done, | :06:18. | :06:25. | |
we shall do it. Exactly. Isn't this a time for reforms? This could be a | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
way to really get the public on board if you show that you were | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
listening. The Police Federation represents all police officers up | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
to the rank of chief inspector and we want them to call for a whole | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
scale review of policing up to a Royal Commission, truly independent. | :06:44. | :06:51. | |
Nobody has taken us upon it. There is a review undertaken by Lord | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
Stevens a highly respected man he used to police the metropolis in | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
London. We will take part in that review on policing as it goes | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
forward. But I think we miss an opportunity in not having my World | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
Commission. Piecemeal reform, pay and conditions and everything that | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
goes with it. The government does not see it as piecemeal reform. | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
Theresa May, the Home Secretary, says the police to one of the most | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
important jobs in this country but we can have them do their job even | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
more effectively. Changes to pay and conditions, cuts to budgets, | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
introduction to elected commissioners - all will make the | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
force more responsive to citizens but also transformed in its ability | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
to fight crime. Surely you would want that? We all want the same | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
things, but some of these reforms do not bring troop not for me | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
within my thinking as somebody who has been policing for Thetford is. | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
The government has come into power and we said, we are here to help | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
you as the Police Federation. We are set up by Parliament to help | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
police offices and we want to copy. They have gone full would with an | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
ideological position. You do not improve policing by cutting it by | :08:09. | :08:17. | |
20%. They chose to ring-fence the NHS, increase oversee development, | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
cut defence. They cut us much further and much deeper. David | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
Cameron when he came into office said, we are always in this | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
together. And we will have to shake up their share of the burden. I | :08:30. | :08:38. | |
said OK. I think that was unique in the public sector. We have a poor | :08:38. | :08:45. | |
year pay freeze and extra contributions to our pensions. We | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
have an additional pay review going on which has taken even more away | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
from them. That is not fair. will get into those details later | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
including those who say it has been more than fair on police for a long | :09:00. | :09:07. | |
time. Let's look at what policing is actually about, because a | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
concern that you always be about to serving the public. The question is, | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
what is the police there to do? And a few these days trying to juggle | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
too many things? If I look did go up delegates at deep Conservative | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
Party Conference last year. He said when needed more rat catchers and | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
yes social workers. The representative of the Thames Valley | :09:31. | :09:38. | |
Police Federation, Sergeant Graeme Smith said that 20% of police | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
activity was not crime fighting but putting a plaster on the crux of | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
society. A thing that is a fair reflection of what we do. And we | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
are an emergency service. The clue is in the name. We are they when | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
no-one else is available. And he is right to say that. That is | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
something government misses when it says that all we should be doing is | :09:59. | :10:08. | |
fighting crime. We do a lot more than that. But should you be? | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
Going back to the 90s, people said you should be focusing more on | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
cutting crime. When Theresa May came into government she said she | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
wanted due to cut crime - no more common at no less. We've got the | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
lowest crime figures in 30 years. We are getting something right over | :10:28. | :10:35. | |
the years. At the moment we are losing 16,000 minimum police | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
officers over the next four years. Arguably, that is from the Office, | :10:40. | :10:46. | |
not the frontline. That is completely wrong. When you look at | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
the figures accepted by the Parliamentary Library, 5216 were | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
lost from the frontline in the first year of cuts alone. But over | :10:56. | :11:04. | |
the four years. In the first year of cuts, 5216 from the front line, | :11:04. | :11:11. | |
7,000 in total. You have less resilience from the front line. The | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
number cut to 16,000, the same number we had to put on the streets | :11:16. | :11:24. | |
in London alone to quell those rights. If you are only dealing | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
with confrontational policing you use the contract with the public. | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
That relationship is important where we are surely police by | :11:32. | :11:39. | |
consent within the community. is the debate, though, isn't it? | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
Should there be so much more to policing than that and came in not | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
outsource a lot of those activities? For example, by | :11:47. | :11:55. | |
privatisation. Various police forces are looking at outsourcing, | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
not just paperwork because police are drowning in paperwork. The West | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
Midlands have got private contractors who can help detain | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
suspects and career criminal investigations. Used so much | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
including the resilience and effectiveness of having officers | :12:15. | :12:21. | |
there to deal with the peaks in emergency service. What you lose is | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
much more fundamental, the independence, the accountability | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
that I as a public servant and every police officer has. I am | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
accountable to you, nobody else. Not a shareholder or a board of | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
directors as those working within the private sector within policing | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
are. That it's a fundamental difference. Let's talk about | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
accountability and fairness and serving the public. One of the | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
proposed changes that has upset you very much is a political change. | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
The idea that there will be new police and crime commissioners who | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
will hold police officer to work out. They will be electable as of | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
November BC. The government says Eades encourages transparency. The | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
police Commissioner said it will make the police was much more | :13:12. | :13:19. | |
accountable. Surely you should be supporting it. I gave evidence on a | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
bill dealing with police commissioners and made it clear | :13:22. | :13:32. | |
that it was not our place to decide how we would be held to workout. | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
That is a slippery slope. Politicians have decided unelected | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
commissioners - so be it. We can see problems with the dynamic | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
between the chief officer, in particular, and with the | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
Commissioners. Because if you look at who has control and have already, | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
he can sack the other one. The person who can Sackey is the Police | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
Commissioner, not the police officer. So they have real control | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
over what that police officer does. The people discover will be the | :14:05. | :14:15. | |
:14:15. | :14:17. | ||
public. Their safety will be put at When we look at other countries | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
like the US or France, there is not the perception amongst the public | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
that their police forces have been politicised. In any policing system, | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
you need to trust. You build that up over a long period of time. The | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
British police service was the first formed in the world. People | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
know what it is. They trusted and understand it and the model is | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
spoken about across the country. If you fundamentally change that model | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
with more privatisation, less accountability and independence, | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
you are changing that relationship with the police service. But that | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
politicisation is the elected police commissioners. You're losing | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
that independence to some degree of operation. They can be some degree | :15:03. | :15:12. | |
of influence exerted on the cheap offices. But look at the financial | :15:12. | :15:22. | |
:15:22. | :15:26. | ||
changes. 20% cuts, losing thousands of police. Theresa May has said | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
that there is no way of avoiding that because we are in exceptional | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
financial circumstances. Surely you can't argue with that. When the | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
government came into office, we recognised that whoever was going | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
to be the government, there would be faced with a difficult problem. | :15:46. | :15:56. | |
:15:56. | :15:56. | ||
They have chosen to go down one wrote -- won a rota and in times of | :15:56. | :16:06. | |
:16:06. | :16:07. | ||
severe downturn, there is one model you can take which is not the one | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
the government talk. The government has decided they will turn the taps | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
off in the public sector and policing is being hit particularly | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
hard. When they came to power we said authorities the model you want | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
to take, we will support you. the police have been left untouched | :16:26. | :16:33. | |
for a long time. Peak -- people who support the reform say, you can't | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
sack a police man. You can. can't make a police officer | :16:38. | :16:47. | |
redundant. They have guaranteed work. What often happens is that in | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
the beginning of their career there are in the front line but as their | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
career progresses they move away from serving the public. And a huge | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
amount of the budget is spent on police pay. Police pensions are far | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
more generous than the public health sector or teachers. People | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
who support his reform say about time the police do their bit. | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
were one of the integral parts of the gauche and review that took | :17:12. | :17:22. | |
place in the early part of 2002. It is disingenuous to say that we have | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
not been taking our fair share of the cuts. His argument that we get | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
paid more than somebody else and we don't deserve it, it is very | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
peculiar because everybody is paid more than somebody else and | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
everybody is paid less than somebody else. The only | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
comparatives ever used by the government are those who are paid | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
less than ours. If you look at the rest of the Criminal Justice System, | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
judges are paid much more than ours and their pensions are untouched. | :17:50. | :17:59. | |
Why it isn't there a review of judges' pensions? What do I say to | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
police officers who write to me and say, I am losing with the pay | :18:05. | :18:12. | |
freeze, pension contributions and Pay Review, I'm losing 25 to 30% of | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
my spending power. I can't make ends meet. What to do was say to | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
them when David Cameron said that we would be treated fairly. | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
Everybody was in this together. We have been treated less favourably | :18:25. | :18:32. | |
than other people, almost on an ideological position. Why do you | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
insist you're being picked on? Theresa May said she wants the | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
police to stop insisting they are being picked on. I should add -- I | :18:39. | :18:47. | |
am sure she does. Denis O'Connor is very clear. He has all the tools at | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
his disposal in the British policing system and he said you | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
can't go past 12% in terms of cuts. There will be real problems if you | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
do that. We support that. That is way ahead of defence cuts, | :19:01. | :19:11. | |
education cuts, NHS cuts and elsewhere. But to recognise that it | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
is your duty to defend and look after the interests of the police | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
force, but when you look outside the borders, at Greece suffering | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
austerity cuts, Portugal, Italy, all the countries that are having | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
to face austerity measures, and that includes the UK, are making | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
cuts across public services, including the police. We accept | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
other countries are extreme cases but we have to look at what is | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
being done in this country and there is no question we are being | :19:44. | :19:53. | |
treated less terribly than other people in the public sector. This | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
is going along with all the other changes in policing as well. The | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
downsizing of the surface, the accountability within the service, | :20:04. | :20:11. | |
the privatisation. When we conducted a survey last year, 98% | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
of offices said they would usually disillusioned and a demoralised by | :20:15. | :20:22. | |
what was happening. Over 90% said they were thinking of leaving. | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
have talked about the demoralisation a lot and warned | :20:25. | :20:32. | |
that police officers were to leave. Is this a threat to the government? | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
This is reality. You only have to look at what happened in London | :20:37. | :20:44. | |
prior to the Federation conference. 35,000 police officers went out on | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
the streets of London and said, listen to what we're saying. | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
Policing is changing fundamentally. Public safety is at risk. We hope | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
the government will take notice. When you say unintended | :20:57. | :21:07. | |
:21:07. | :21:13. | ||
consequences, will there be police officers who will dig in their | :21:13. | :21:19. | |
heels and say, I went to my job? And not putting up at this? Police | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
officers, into the service because they care about people. Police | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
officers will do what they can to protect people. But that is | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
becoming more difficult. I speak to hundreds of offices at a time and | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
the same feelings are coming out. They themselves are feeling less | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
safe because they are being stretched so much. But there are | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
also fuelling a great fear for the public because they are being put | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
in danger as well. This is an incremental process that will take | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
place over the next few years. But it is happening and we should warn | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
the public about it. We tried to warn the government about the | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
potential for riots and we were told that we were scaremongering. | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
We saw what we had -- we saw what happened last year. Archie | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
scaremongering now? About what? Saying there will be public | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
disorder and there may be a breakdown of law and order? | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
riots happened because they were not enough officers on the streets. | :22:19. | :22:29. | |
:22:29. | :22:30. | ||
When you have it your offices on the streets, the people who will be | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
taking advantage of that are the criminals. They will be aware of | :22:35. | :22:44. | |
the lessening in police numbers. I can take you back to a former | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
chief constable who talked about what he saw as a widening gap | :22:48. | :22:55. | |
between the police and the public, how the public a perplexed about | :22:55. | :23:05. | |
what the police are doing, he described the force as process | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
dominated and defensive. What would you say to him? He retired about 20 | :23:11. | :23:18. | |
years ago. That does not reflect the modern police service. | :23:18. | :23:27. | |
would you describe it? The British police service is a highly complex | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
organisation which is very skilled and based on values. Compassion, | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
caring, stoicism, fortitude and the ability to work autonomously. That | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
is what British policing is based on. A degree of bravery also. That | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
is something I think the government Mrs. They're trying to reform the | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
police and make it based on the qualifications you possess and | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
technical skills. There is nothing wrong with that but we must not | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
move away from the core values and principles. They are respected by | :23:59. | :24:05. |