Paul McKeever - Chairman, Police Federation of England and Wales HARDtalk


Paul McKeever - Chairman, Police Federation of England and Wales

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been told it's safe to return to their homes. A quarry lake near

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Pennal had sprung a leak, forcing the emergency services to relieve

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the pressure on its wall. Now it is time for HARDtalk. The police in

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Britain, used to being revered, respected and admired at home and

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abroad, find themselves under a heavy black cloud. With allegations

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corruption denting trust, the force now also faces dramatic cuts to its

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budget and changes to its structure. My guest today is the chairman of

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the Police Federation in England and Wales. Paul McKeever says

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proposed government reforms could lead to the destruction of the

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police as we know it. But with the force untouched by change for

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decades, is now not an ideal opportunity to shape up for the

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challenges of the 21st century? Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.

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the police in crisis? I think it is heading for crisis at the moment,

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going through the most extraordinary change in the UK,

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particularly within England and Wales. This is unprecedented.

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Everything is happening at once. The government has a right to

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introduce change, but there is so much happening we think there will

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be problems when we get to the end of the programme we are doing at

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the moment. In 2008 the then British Home Secretary Jacqui Smith

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told Parliament that the British police were the envy of the world.

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Indeed, yes. And yet now they are faced with the Leveson Inquiry

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about the relationship between the police and media. And the riots of

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last summer. Are you still the envy of the world? When I speak to

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colleagues in Australasia, Africa, the Far East, they do hold us in

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high regard because they realise that when there are crises in the

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system we actually do something about them rather than let them

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fester. We do not want things such as corruption in the British police

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service. We have a reputation for being very honest. You do have that

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reputation for openness and honesty very much abroad. However, if I can

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just quote a couple of European newspapers. AE Berlin newspaper

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rights that Britain has lost faith now in every authority - the banks,

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politicians, media and also the police. Another newspaper says the

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riots have many causes but include its strong opposition and bad

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relationships between the people and the police. A German paper

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talking about the ongoing inquiry looking into the relationship

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between the press, police and politicians. They say it showed the

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British public that there politicians were a farce, calling

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police money-grabbing. That is an extreme view of what is happening

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in this country. We recognise there are problems and we're proud of

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having a free and liberal democracy and Prague of protecting it. I

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think we have some of the highest ratings of any working in these

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professions. The only professions which score higher than last are

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doctors and nurses. And when you think of the type of people we deal

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with, the kind of people that do not want to come into contact with

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police officers, and yet we score ratings in the 70s. It does not

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give the same picture as those you up a train. A crime survey in March

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showed that less than half had confidence in the ability of the

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police to deal with crime and the anti-social behaviour. Research

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commissioned last year by victim Support showed that people who

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suffered crime and therefore came into contact with the police and

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the Criminal Justice System where 20% less likely to feel confident

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in police officers than those who had not had direct contact with the

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police. Doesn't that worry you? have to prove ourselves with every

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generation which come through. When you listen to Bernard Hogan-Howe,

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the Commissioner of the police, he is very clear that we have to

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engage with the public. Uniquely, in the world, we police by consent.

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We do not carry guns. It is important that we get it right with

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public. But you're not getting right, are you? We hear that people

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who come into contact with you are losing faith. I think we are

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getting it right. I was at the funeral and memorial service of PC

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David Rathband recently. Colin Washington spoke about the values

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in which -- British policing. The sort of values that people still do

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value in this country within British police officers. Most

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people do still have trusting in policing. You say most people - do

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you really believe that? In the late 19th century, the first

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instances of policing by consent. The issue that the police were the

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public and the public were the police. It does not seem like that

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these days - look at the riots. is vitally important that we are

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part of the public and the public were part of the police, that we

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are citizens. We have to continually reinforce that message

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and have the confidence of the public. If there is work to be done,

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we shall do it. Exactly. Isn't this a time for reforms? This could be a

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way to really get the public on board if you show that you were

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listening. The Police Federation represents all police officers up

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to the rank of chief inspector and we want them to call for a whole

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scale review of policing up to a Royal Commission, truly independent.

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Nobody has taken us upon it. There is a review undertaken by Lord

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Stevens a highly respected man he used to police the metropolis in

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London. We will take part in that review on policing as it goes

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forward. But I think we miss an opportunity in not having my World

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Commission. Piecemeal reform, pay and conditions and everything that

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goes with it. The government does not see it as piecemeal reform.

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Theresa May, the Home Secretary, says the police to one of the most

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important jobs in this country but we can have them do their job even

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more effectively. Changes to pay and conditions, cuts to budgets,

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introduction to elected commissioners - all will make the

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force more responsive to citizens but also transformed in its ability

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to fight crime. Surely you would want that? We all want the same

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things, but some of these reforms do not bring troop not for me

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within my thinking as somebody who has been policing for Thetford is.

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The government has come into power and we said, we are here to help

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you as the Police Federation. We are set up by Parliament to help

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police offices and we want to copy. They have gone full would with an

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ideological position. You do not improve policing by cutting it by

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20%. They chose to ring-fence the NHS, increase oversee development,

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cut defence. They cut us much further and much deeper. David

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Cameron when he came into office said, we are always in this

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together. And we will have to shake up their share of the burden. I

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said OK. I think that was unique in the public sector. We have a poor

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year pay freeze and extra contributions to our pensions. We

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have an additional pay review going on which has taken even more away

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from them. That is not fair. will get into those details later

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including those who say it has been more than fair on police for a long

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time. Let's look at what policing is actually about, because a

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concern that you always be about to serving the public. The question is,

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what is the police there to do? And a few these days trying to juggle

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too many things? If I look did go up delegates at deep Conservative

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Party Conference last year. He said when needed more rat catchers and

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yes social workers. The representative of the Thames Valley

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Police Federation, Sergeant Graeme Smith said that 20% of police

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activity was not crime fighting but putting a plaster on the crux of

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society. A thing that is a fair reflection of what we do. And we

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are an emergency service. The clue is in the name. We are they when

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no-one else is available. And he is right to say that. That is

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something government misses when it says that all we should be doing is

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fighting crime. We do a lot more than that. But should you be?

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Going back to the 90s, people said you should be focusing more on

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cutting crime. When Theresa May came into government she said she

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wanted due to cut crime - no more common at no less. We've got the

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lowest crime figures in 30 years. We are getting something right over

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the years. At the moment we are losing 16,000 minimum police

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officers over the next four years. Arguably, that is from the Office,

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not the frontline. That is completely wrong. When you look at

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the figures accepted by the Parliamentary Library, 5216 were

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lost from the frontline in the first year of cuts alone. But over

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the four years. In the first year of cuts, 5216 from the front line,

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7,000 in total. You have less resilience from the front line. The

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number cut to 16,000, the same number we had to put on the streets

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in London alone to quell those rights. If you are only dealing

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with confrontational policing you use the contract with the public.

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That relationship is important where we are surely police by

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consent within the community. is the debate, though, isn't it?

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Should there be so much more to policing than that and came in not

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outsource a lot of those activities? For example, by

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privatisation. Various police forces are looking at outsourcing,

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not just paperwork because police are drowning in paperwork. The West

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Midlands have got private contractors who can help detain

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suspects and career criminal investigations. Used so much

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including the resilience and effectiveness of having officers

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there to deal with the peaks in emergency service. What you lose is

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much more fundamental, the independence, the accountability

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that I as a public servant and every police officer has. I am

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accountable to you, nobody else. Not a shareholder or a board of

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directors as those working within the private sector within policing

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are. That it's a fundamental difference. Let's talk about

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accountability and fairness and serving the public. One of the

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proposed changes that has upset you very much is a political change.

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The idea that there will be new police and crime commissioners who

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will hold police officer to work out. They will be electable as of

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November BC. The government says Eades encourages transparency. The

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police Commissioner said it will make the police was much more

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accountable. Surely you should be supporting it. I gave evidence on a

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bill dealing with police commissioners and made it clear

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that it was not our place to decide how we would be held to workout.

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That is a slippery slope. Politicians have decided unelected

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commissioners - so be it. We can see problems with the dynamic

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between the chief officer, in particular, and with the

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Commissioners. Because if you look at who has control and have already,

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he can sack the other one. The person who can Sackey is the Police

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Commissioner, not the police officer. So they have real control

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over what that police officer does. The people discover will be the

:14:05.:14:15.
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public. Their safety will be put at When we look at other countries

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like the US or France, there is not the perception amongst the public

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that their police forces have been politicised. In any policing system,

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you need to trust. You build that up over a long period of time. The

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British police service was the first formed in the world. People

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know what it is. They trusted and understand it and the model is

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spoken about across the country. If you fundamentally change that model

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with more privatisation, less accountability and independence,

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you are changing that relationship with the police service. But that

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politicisation is the elected police commissioners. You're losing

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that independence to some degree of operation. They can be some degree

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of influence exerted on the cheap offices. But look at the financial

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changes. 20% cuts, losing thousands of police. Theresa May has said

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that there is no way of avoiding that because we are in exceptional

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financial circumstances. Surely you can't argue with that. When the

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government came into office, we recognised that whoever was going

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to be the government, there would be faced with a difficult problem.

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:15:56.:15:56.

They have chosen to go down one wrote -- won a rota and in times of

:15:56.:16:06.
:16:06.:16:07.

severe downturn, there is one model you can take which is not the one

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the government talk. The government has decided they will turn the taps

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off in the public sector and policing is being hit particularly

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hard. When they came to power we said authorities the model you want

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to take, we will support you. the police have been left untouched

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for a long time. Peak -- people who support the reform say, you can't

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sack a police man. You can. can't make a police officer

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redundant. They have guaranteed work. What often happens is that in

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the beginning of their career there are in the front line but as their

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career progresses they move away from serving the public. And a huge

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amount of the budget is spent on police pay. Police pensions are far

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more generous than the public health sector or teachers. People

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who support his reform say about time the police do their bit.

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were one of the integral parts of the gauche and review that took

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place in the early part of 2002. It is disingenuous to say that we have

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not been taking our fair share of the cuts. His argument that we get

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paid more than somebody else and we don't deserve it, it is very

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peculiar because everybody is paid more than somebody else and

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everybody is paid less than somebody else. The only

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comparatives ever used by the government are those who are paid

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less than ours. If you look at the rest of the Criminal Justice System,

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judges are paid much more than ours and their pensions are untouched.

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Why it isn't there a review of judges' pensions? What do I say to

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police officers who write to me and say, I am losing with the pay

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freeze, pension contributions and Pay Review, I'm losing 25 to 30% of

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my spending power. I can't make ends meet. What to do was say to

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them when David Cameron said that we would be treated fairly.

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Everybody was in this together. We have been treated less favourably

:18:25.:18:32.

than other people, almost on an ideological position. Why do you

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insist you're being picked on? Theresa May said she wants the

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police to stop insisting they are being picked on. I should add -- I

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am sure she does. Denis O'Connor is very clear. He has all the tools at

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his disposal in the British policing system and he said you

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can't go past 12% in terms of cuts. There will be real problems if you

:18:56.:19:01.

do that. We support that. That is way ahead of defence cuts,

:19:01.:19:11.

education cuts, NHS cuts and elsewhere. But to recognise that it

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is your duty to defend and look after the interests of the police

:19:15.:19:20.

force, but when you look outside the borders, at Greece suffering

:19:20.:19:26.

austerity cuts, Portugal, Italy, all the countries that are having

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to face austerity measures, and that includes the UK, are making

:19:31.:19:35.

cuts across public services, including the police. We accept

:19:35.:19:41.

other countries are extreme cases but we have to look at what is

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being done in this country and there is no question we are being

:19:44.:19:53.

treated less terribly than other people in the public sector. This

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is going along with all the other changes in policing as well. The

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downsizing of the surface, the accountability within the service,

:20:04.:20:11.

the privatisation. When we conducted a survey last year, 98%

:20:11.:20:14.

of offices said they would usually disillusioned and a demoralised by

:20:15.:20:22.

what was happening. Over 90% said they were thinking of leaving.

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have talked about the demoralisation a lot and warned

:20:25.:20:32.

that police officers were to leave. Is this a threat to the government?

:20:32.:20:37.

This is reality. You only have to look at what happened in London

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prior to the Federation conference. 35,000 police officers went out on

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the streets of London and said, listen to what we're saying.

:20:48.:20:52.

Policing is changing fundamentally. Public safety is at risk. We hope

:20:53.:20:57.

the government will take notice. When you say unintended

:20:57.:21:07.
:21:07.:21:13.

consequences, will there be police officers who will dig in their

:21:13.:21:19.

heels and say, I went to my job? And not putting up at this? Police

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officers, into the service because they care about people. Police

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officers will do what they can to protect people. But that is

:21:27.:21:33.

becoming more difficult. I speak to hundreds of offices at a time and

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the same feelings are coming out. They themselves are feeling less

:21:37.:21:40.

safe because they are being stretched so much. But there are

:21:40.:21:44.

also fuelling a great fear for the public because they are being put

:21:44.:21:48.

in danger as well. This is an incremental process that will take

:21:48.:21:54.

place over the next few years. But it is happening and we should warn

:21:54.:21:58.

the public about it. We tried to warn the government about the

:21:58.:22:01.

potential for riots and we were told that we were scaremongering.

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We saw what we had -- we saw what happened last year. Archie

:22:05.:22:11.

scaremongering now? About what? Saying there will be public

:22:11.:22:15.

disorder and there may be a breakdown of law and order?

:22:15.:22:19.

riots happened because they were not enough officers on the streets.

:22:19.:22:29.
:22:29.:22:30.

When you have it your offices on the streets, the people who will be

:22:30.:22:35.

taking advantage of that are the criminals. They will be aware of

:22:35.:22:44.

the lessening in police numbers. I can take you back to a former

:22:44.:22:48.

chief constable who talked about what he saw as a widening gap

:22:48.:22:55.

between the police and the public, how the public a perplexed about

:22:55.:23:05.

what the police are doing, he described the force as process

:23:05.:23:11.

dominated and defensive. What would you say to him? He retired about 20

:23:11.:23:18.

years ago. That does not reflect the modern police service.

:23:18.:23:27.

would you describe it? The British police service is a highly complex

:23:27.:23:33.

organisation which is very skilled and based on values. Compassion,

:23:33.:23:38.

caring, stoicism, fortitude and the ability to work autonomously. That

:23:38.:23:43.

is what British policing is based on. A degree of bravery also. That

:23:43.:23:47.

is something I think the government Mrs. They're trying to reform the

:23:47.:23:51.

police and make it based on the qualifications you possess and

:23:51.:23:54.

technical skills. There is nothing wrong with that but we must not

:23:54.:23:59.

move away from the core values and principles. They are respected by

:23:59.:24:05.

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