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Lynton Crosby -Political strategist

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Euro 2012 in Kiev. Now it is time for HARDtalk.

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Electoral politics is a blood sport and some of the toughest fighters

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in the game are the campaign strategists who hone and sell their

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candidates' message. Lynton Crosby is widely regarded as one of the

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masters of the darker political arts - he ran winning campaigns in

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his native Australia for former prime minister John Howard. In the

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UK, he twice helped Boris Johnson win the London Mayor's office.

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Opponents on the left have accused him of using grubby, divisive

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methods to further a conservative agenda. Is bare-knuckle politics

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good for democracy? Lynton Crosby, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Good to be here. You are a political gun for hire. Your

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business is being a political consultant but you also, it seems

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to me, are a man of strong political convictions of your own.

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Which comes first for you? Your business or your beliefs? Your

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beliefs always have to be a foundation for what you do. It's

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important in politics that people have values. I don't think you'd be

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finding me working for too many socialists around the world.

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However, business is business. What we do in politics we also do for

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business, for communities and countries - trying to make a case

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that deserves to be put forward. it's unlikely you would ever work

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for a socialist, but if you look at the people you have worked with -

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far and wide across the world - have you always felt a values-based,

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conviction-based connection with the people you have agreed to work

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for? In most cases, yes. I think it's important that people

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understand it when you are giving advice you're not seeking to

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perpetuate your own beliefs and trying to impose your own views on

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people. But people who you have respect for, whose views you can

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find similarity and comfort with, that you want to help them doing

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the best they can. Ultimately, they are the people who put themselves

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before the people. It interesting you put it that way, but you're

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trying to mould what they sell to the public. You do so much

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intensive polymer and getting into the mindset of the voter. What's

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the point of giving let your candidate unless you hope it will

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mauled, to a certain extent, what he then tries to sell as his

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political message? I think the important point to understand is

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that polling is a navigational tool. It should never tell you what to

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believe. If you take a poll to tell you what to believe - it will give

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the game away. Plenty of politicians do that. No, I haven't

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seen it. There is a mystique, a bit of interest about this - poll in to

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see what people think, then giving people what they think. It doesn't

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really work that way. The way I think it should work and the way we

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work with in my company is we say "this is what you want to do, this

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is what people think. This is why they hold the views they do and

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polling has told us all these things. Given that this is what you

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want to do, here is how you communicate to build community

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support for what you want to do to take people with you". Case in

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point - in 1998, John Howard, prime minister of Australia, took the

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view that Australia needed a new tax system and he proposed a goods

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and services tax. That's a brave thing to go to an election, which

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is what he attempted to do, promising to significantly change

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the taxation system. To impose a new tax. Any poll would have said

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that people do not like new taxes, people are sceptical of politicians

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and the way they spend money. Who will vote for a politician

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promising a new tax? But he was able to make a story, cast a story,

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and present that to the vote is based on his own very strong and

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good political instincts. He used research as well. A poll would have

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said "don't impose a new tax", but you can use research to help you do

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what you want to do. An interesting example. I am pleased to have taken

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a us straight to Australia because that is way you cut your political

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teeth as a strategist and campaigner. You said not so long

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ago - and this is a quote "everyone likes to sing songs together, but

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you need points of difference". Is it not true that in your Australian

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political experience you specialise in finding not just the points of

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difference but in exploiting people's deeper fears? Look, I

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think the first thing is - I didn't find too much. Candidates have

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their own views and they want to take it to the public. The idea

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that the strategies or adviser comes in and tells you what to

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think is misplaced, to start with.... But let's look at the idea

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of picking a way... Well, it's picking away - firstly, you have to

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hold people to a character. Elections are a choice and you need

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to frame that choice. When people think about how to use their vote,

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they need to know what they are going to vote for and what they are

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going to vote against. They need to understand a choice they face. It's

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very important that people understand a clear choice that they

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face. If you do not make it clear to them they can be confused.

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is - this is where you get accused by opponents of manipulation. Let's

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take one case study and armpit it a little bit. Into 1001 in Australia

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-- unpacked it a little bit. In 2001 in Australia there was a boat

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called the tampon which was intercepted by the Australian Navy.

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-- Tampa.... John Howard said he would protect Australia from a kind

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of immigration. It was done in a way that Australians saw as grubby

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and divisive. He sent the boat away. Many people saw that you were

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playing upon a racist issue there with your an anti-immigrant starts.

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How do you respond? Firstly, John Howard won with the biggest swing

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to an incumbent government in 30 years. Not all the Australian

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people took that view. Suddenly, the decision he took with that a

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boat to is one I knew about after he took it. Did you think it was

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the right thing to do? I definitely did, and the evidence is right now.

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If you go t If you go tia right now, people is represent their positions

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about immigration. -- misrepresent. A record number of boats are trying

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to get there and people are dying because they are being held out -

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it is being held out to them, falsely, by people smugglers, that

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they can pay money and get to Australia. Tragically, people are

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dying. In the last couple of years with John Howard, not one vote came,

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it yet, and this is the point I would like to make - under the

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coalition, the Liberal and National parties, if for different coalition

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to what we have here - Australia took more refugees and takes more

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migrants than most other countries. It's not about immigration it's

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about the right way to behave. my point isn't so much about

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questioning the importance of the issue and the legitimacy of putting

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the issue in the public domain, it's about how it was done, the

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detail how it was done. Where political campaigners sit on some

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of the detail. For example, it was said by senior figures in the

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Australian government at the time that some of those on board that

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particular vessel had been attempting to throw their

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grandchildren overboard in an effort to stymie the efforts of the

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Australian Navy. The defence minister at the time used that

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story. It became clear that the Australian navy themselves were

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saying that they had no evidence for that allegation. But the

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government officials, particularly some senior ministers, continue to

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peddle that story. I wonder whether you, as a campaign manager, or

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involved in any of that? No, and we never used that story. That story

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happened to break in the lead-up to the campaign but it was never part

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of our campaign or out that message. Are you prepared to say that you

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are appalled at some of the things that you said at the time, which

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appear, after a lot of research and investigation, to have been plain

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wrong? Naturally, if something is wrong and is perpetuated, that is

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wrong and no-one would support that. Let's not mix issues here. There is

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a particular incident which you are describing which, on the evidence,

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appeared wrong. This is in the public domain now. They didn't

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change their story at the time. Based on confused information,

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whatever the reason, it was wrong. That doesn't detract from a

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fundamental point that we were facing an election and people had

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to make a choice about the policies that each of the parties were

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offering. One party was offering a policy that had radically improved

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the way out that borders were managed. -- the way that. More

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immigrants and refugees were brought to the country, but in a

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controlled way. When the system breaks down, if a government fails

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to tackle it probably, then, actually, it can have the reverse

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effect of what you want. That was the fundamental basis of the point.

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It wasn't about where the people came from - there was no issue of

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race. It was about protecting the borders of Australia - an island

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nation.... Have you thought very closely and carefully, yourself, or

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about how far a negative campaigning him go? Is there a line

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that you have come close to crossing, if you now look back on

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your career? I can't think of a specific line that I feel that I

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almost - and negative line that I almost crossed. I think......

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true that you are long-time partner of a decade or so, he was involved,

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as I understood it, - push polling, is when pollsters put coke to do

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aim -- when pollsters claim to be doing a neutral poll, but they push

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negative information about the opponents in the poll. I have never

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used it. My partner has never used it. He was accused in 1995 of using

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it against a woman candidate in the 1995 by-election. As I understand,

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it settled out of court that he gave the woman some money.

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Interestingly there is a court case in Australia right now involving

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Crosby Dexter - my company, which my partner is a part of - we are

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suing a government minister for making that same claim because it

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is simply untrue. There were allegations made and there was a

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poll conducted in which some of the questions were based on information

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that was wrong, that was provided by a third party him conducting a

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poll. The thing about push polling, without overdoing it, because it is

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one of those things your opponents will have to beat you over the head

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with, push polling only works, in its theory, developed by the

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Democrats in the US, was to poll tens of thousands of people with a

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false claim, with it under the pretence of it being a legitimate

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goal, and then in so doing, seek to influence the outcome of an

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election and the way people thought about a candidate. What we do is

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poll, we ring up a small number of people to ask their opinion in

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order that we can understand... find out what they're thinking. I

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understand the difference. Anyway, you've been very clear - you don't

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do it. Never. Let's move to Australia, where you would accept

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that your career was controversial. I think when you play hard ball

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against your opponents they don't always like it. But politics is a

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serious business. Who runs a country - the policies they

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implement are important. Forgive me if there is a bit of passion they

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are sometimes. We like passion on his programme. I wonder why, when

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you brought that passion to the United Kingdom and red for the

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Tories in 2005 -- and ran for the Tories into 1005 and failed, why

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did you fail? I think the situation in 2005 - it is important to

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understand it understand -- important to understand the

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situation.... I think back then the Conservative Party still had a lot

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of challenges. I think Michael Howard was an outstanding leader -

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the leader at the time. He had been an exceptional Home Secretary in my

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view. He was keen to focus on the issues with which he had a lot of

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experience and with which - about which he had strong views. Issues

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like crime and immigration. Immigration, which you pushed very

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hard. Afterwards, you said if you had pushed immigration Hardy would

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have won. It is claimed that I said that. Having a problem for the

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Conservative Party was that people hadn't changed enough. If you don't

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change, if you lose successive elections, people are sending a

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message. Clearly, there hadn't been sufficient change. Clearly, the

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policy agenda had not changed That brings me to the here and now.

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I want to ask you what do you think that the Conservative Party in the

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2012 election, with its David Cannon and the party have clearly

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defined themselves. -- weather David Cameron. People know what

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they stand for. Do you think they have succeeded in that? He has

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faced a tough job and has done it well. He has remained principled in

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areas such as dealing with debt and financial responsibility.

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Significant reform and health and education, welfare reform. He has

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laid out some quite challenging areas for change and improvement.

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It is not easy in a coalition. Here you have two parties that often

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have values and principles that will be pulling away from each

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other. Surely it is the values that are pulling away from each other

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that are inside David Cameron's head. He wants to say he is a

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caring and compassionate conservative. He says that the

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green agenda is one of the greatest threats facing humanity. It seems

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like there are two different Conservative leaders. The few happy

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divided brand, it will not work. You need to understand context. The

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former was at a context were you did not have the financial

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challenge. But you cannot just jump them when times are tough. It is

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having to do when having a pressure of the reality of the here and now.

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He has not changed his beliefs. He understands that Europe remains in

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meltdown. People want to know that he is focusing on the big issues.

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Context has created the climate for he has to do with these things work.

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How do you deal with the being an Australian and address this issue

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that a Tory MP described David Cameron and George Osborne as two

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arrogant posh boys. That is a large back problem. Not at all. It is

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easy to take pot shots. These are tough times. They have been tough

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job. In the end, people judge you not from where you come but what

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you do in the job. It has its challenges. They have made clear

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their first priority is to focus on the nation's debt, the financial

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system, reforming the education take pot shots. I noticed you are

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not doing that in this interview. Many Tories are looking at the

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polls and they are looking difficult for David Cameron. They

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say they need someone to do plan ahead. The man to do it is Lynton

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Crosby. In terms of campaign manager. Are you interested? I have

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a small business. Politics generally makes businesses smaller.

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I have a job to do. I want to see the Conservatives win. That is not

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my agenda. Do you think the Conservatives will have a better

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chance of winning the next election if Boris Johnson will lead to? --

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were leader? No, I do not. These are tough times. It is a difficult

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period. This is because of the world reality. The world as an

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crisis. There are some tough issues to deal with. You do not see Boris

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Johnson as a better prime minister than David Cameron? Bob Johnson

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says he is an outstanding mare. -- Boris Johnson. The qualities are

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born of the fact that it is a presidential system. People voting

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for one person. He has character. He has a commitment to do the job.

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Why, when you talk so fondly of his character, why do you think that

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his press car left the job after the election? His press chief said

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afterwards that the problem is that our campaign strategy took some of

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the bubbles out of him. He said that you had tried to control and

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packaging too much. He cannot be controlled. Boris Johnson won. At a

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time when the Conservatives were behind in London. Any campaign, you

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face particular challenges. For people to hear that and see that

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and understand that, sometimes you have to get a little more direct,

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focused and tight. He chose to do rich and communicated it. Let me

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ask you about your work all around the world. You work all over the

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place. You have been in Malaysia, Fiji, lots of places. Does the

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approach you go into politics, and we have talked about the

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exploitation of the tension, does that work in some of these less

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mature democracies? It might be dangerous in some of them. You are

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making an assumption. You always take a big focus on a negative into

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the campaign. You deal with the circumstances you face. Take

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Malaysia as an example. A number of different races, intermingled.

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Often sensitive in their issues. It would be wrong to exploit that. To

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manipulate that in any way at all. Where you go in the world, whether

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it is Fiji, Ghana, Zambia or a country in Africa. People have

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various values and goals for themselves and their families. A

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campaign is all about helping them see, given those aspirations they

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hold, that the candidate you are offering, you are supporting, and

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the policies they're offering, meet those aspirations and goals. Let me

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quote something from one a few phone company's reports from New

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Zealand. It is about Helen Clark. You called it a strategic

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opportunity in the emerging perception that Helen Clark is too

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busy to will be about the concerns of ordinary working families. It

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must be stressed that this sentiment amongst the public is

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embryonic. It must be leveraged. It will not exist and mature on its

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own. As we reach an end to this conversation, it is a very cynical

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way of looking at politics. You do not manipulate their opinion. They

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hold their own opinions. You help them understand the circumstances

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they face and the choice they face. What often happens, particularly in

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this day and age, people feel this and how work. They get angry when

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the EC political figures focusing on what they see to be abstract

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issues. The point I am seeking to make is that people have real

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concerns about their day-to-day lives. She seemed to be off on her

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little course. That is the fact of it. You will not tell me if you

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work with the Conservatives in 2015. Would you say that if you look

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around the world and the amount of business to a company has done,

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that politicians are more reliant on the sorts of skills that you and

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others can bring? In everything, from the media, to finance, to

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every day small business activity, we all need specialists. The point

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and made at the start I will reinforce - at the end of the day,

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someone who runs for political office must have their own beliefs.

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