Browse content similar to On the Road in Honduras (3/3). Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Stephen Sackur examines the crisis in the country's politics and | :00:03. | :00:13. | |
:00:13. | :00:28. | ||
HARDtalk is on the road in Honduras, one of the poorest, the most | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
unequal and the most violent countries in Central America. | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
Endemic corruption, drugs trafficking and a recent military | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
coup all have contributed to a crisis of political legitimacy here. | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
A century ago, this place was called a banana republic because of | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
the dominance of huge American fruit companies. Now it's ingreat | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
danger of becoming a failed state - - in great danger of becoming a | :00:58. | :01:08. | |
:01:08. | :01:11. | ||
failed state. So, who can save Honduras's capital is a city of | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
hills. Some of Central America's poorest | :01:15. | :01:24. | |
people have priceless views. The area is home to some 500 families, | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
more than half the adults here are jobless. | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
The seat of Honduras' national government is just 20 minutes' | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
drive away. And as far as this person is concerned, it might as | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
well be in another world. She looks after a family of six in her one- | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
room shack. I just wonder, when you look at your own kids and your | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
grandchildren, whether you worry for their future, the way Honduras | :01:55. | :02:05. | |
:02:05. | :02:29. | ||
It's a tight-knit community. Residents are proud that the street | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
gangs which have taken over swathes of the area have so far been kept | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
out of their neighbourhood. But that doesn't mean people here | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
are safe. Drug abuse and crime have spread through the Honduran capital | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
like a virilent epidemic. And no- one in the town believes the state | :02:49. | :02:57. | |
offers any form of protection. Not even this man, who works for | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
the government's parks department, and certainly not this 15-year-old, | :03:02. | :03:12. | |
:03:12. | :03:20. | ||
who's quit school and can't find a Right now, do you have any faith | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
that the politicianness this country really have -- politicians | :03:26. | :03:36. | |
:03:36. | :03:56. | ||
in this country really have the Honduras isn't just poor, it's | :03:56. | :04:05. | |
poorly governed. The most recent crisis of political legitimacy | :04:05. | :04:13. | |
erupted in 2009. The military toppled the populous | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
President. For Hondurans with bitter memories of repressive | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
military rule, a generation ago, the return of the generals was | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
enough to prompt mass protest on the streets. | :04:29. | :04:37. | |
For a short time, revolution was in the air. But then came the post- | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
coup election of this man. He's a Conservative. | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
Quickly, he was given President Obama's seal of approval. Stability | :04:49. | :04:58. | |
apparently restored for those not looking too closely. | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
How stable is a country where independent reporting can lead to a | :05:02. | :05:11. | |
Protesters recently took to the streets demanding better protection | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
for the country's journalists. More than 20 have been murdered since | :05:16. | :05:26. | |
:05:26. | :05:54. | ||
Radio HRN is the most popular news station in the country. Two months | :05:54. | :06:02. | |
ago, HRN made unwanted headlines itself., -- their most popular | :06:02. | :06:12. | |
:06:12. | :06:40. | ||
presenter was kidnapped and I get the sense that a real fear, | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
not just amongst many journalists in this country now, but, frankly, | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
right across this society. Do you think Honduras is being damaged by | :06:51. | :07:01. | |
:07:01. | :07:23. | ||
Journalism may be dangerous, but campaigning for peasant land rights | :07:23. | :07:29. | |
is worse. More than 40 activists have been killed in three years of | :07:29. | :07:37. | |
land disputes centred on the valley in northern Honduras. | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
The peasant farmers are fighting a losing battle with a handful of big | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
landowners, who have expanded their agri businesses with the support of | :07:47. | :07:57. | |
:07:57. | :08:03. | ||
the hondian state. The activists recently journeyed to | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
the capital in an effort to voice their protest direct to government. | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
But theirs is a cause which has few friends in the corridors of power. | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
You sort of wonder why there isn't a greater sense of popular anger, | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
more signs of people power, in this country, which faces such a grave | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
political, social and economic crisis. Maybe it's because the | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
Honduran security forces are all around, ready to pounce if there is | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
any sign of trouble. And maybe also it's because there's a weary sense | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
of resignation that the problems in this country are simply too big to | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
fix. So, in reality, what's happening is | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
that people are locking themselves up. Their houses are turning into | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
jails basically, because people don't dare go out, because they | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
just don't feel safe going out into the streets in their own | :08:58. | :09:05. | |
communities. Sergio is a human rights worker who has categoryed | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
Honduras' shocking descent into lawlessness. The machinery of | :09:07. | :09:15. | |
is punty is the norm. We have a judicial | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
system that receives 65,000 to 70,000 complaints every year. And | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
of those, maybe 2,000 are being taken into court system, and of | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
those, a very minimum number will actually achieve some kind of | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
resolution with justice, you know? So what that means is that most | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
people are not seeing justice being done by the judicial system. Quite | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
the contrary. When you have something like 20 murders a day in | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
the country, and you don't even have enough forensic experts to be | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
able to look at the bodies and tells us what happened. That | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
ultimately means that murderers are walking free in Honduras. The | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
people think that police are more to fear than some gangs, for | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
example. I know in my neighbourhood, people walking in the streets at | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
night will much rather walk into a group of young people than walk | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
into a group of police officers coming down the street. Surely | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
you're exaggerating? You seem to be suggesting that there are no good | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
cops in this country, and that there is no possibility of getting | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
justice through the police and judicial system? That must be an | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
exaggeration? There are some good cops. What I'm really saying is | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
that the whole institution is broke down. It's broken down. It's rotten | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
to the core. What I'm saying is the violence in Honduras has to do not | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
only with drug trafficking but with the institutions of democracy | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
breaking down, particularly since the coup, for example. People don't | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
believe in the justice system anymore. Our people doesn't | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
certainly do not believe in the human rights ombudsman anymore, | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
because of the role he played. People do not believe that justice | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
is served. Surely, there are good police officers, but the force as a | :11:04. | :11:14. | |
:11:14. | :11:17. | ||
Those Hondurans who can afford it have built high walls to keep out | :11:17. | :11:27. | |
:11:27. | :11:28. | ||
the chaos. The gulf between the haves and the have-nots is widening. | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
In one of the area's poshest hotels, I found the country's business | :11:34. | :11:43. | |
elite in party mood. Never mind Honduras' problems of crime, | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
corruption and violence, the investment climate, they believe, | :11:45. | :11:54. | |
is about to improve. To understand why, I took a journey | :11:54. | :12:02. | |
north, towards Honduras' border with Guatemala. This valley has | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
been earmarked by the Honduran government as the favoured location | :12:05. | :12:14. | |
for a radical economic experiment. Here, they plan to plant the seeds | :12:14. | :12:22. | |
of a new city. A special development zone. With a government | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
and judicial system separate from the rest of troubled Honduras. | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
Gives you a point of access to the international economy. That's a sea | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
port. Just down there? Just down there. It gives you proximity to a | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
foreign border. That's puts a positive pressure, where you have | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
to compete to be attractive. Mark is one of the architects of this | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
radical idea. Inspired bit success of city states from Dubai to Hong | :12:50. | :12:58. | |
Kong, he's now advising Honduras' President. Mark, welcome to | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
HARDtalk. Thank you. Many Hondurans would say the vision that you have | :13:02. | :13:11. | |
peddled, and that some other visionaries have sold sh them as | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
well, free cities, or charter cities, is deeply troubling to them, | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
because it won't be democratic, it won't operate under the same rules | :13:20. | :13:26. | |
as the rest of the country. In the end, it will be supervised and held | :13:26. | :13:32. | |
to account by foreigners, outsiders? There are voices that | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
defend the status quo. There's not a lot that recommend the statusow. | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
It's recognised by the Hondurans. You have extreme poverty, | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
institutional weakness, the highest rate of crime. To such a dreeg that | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
one of the largest source of foreign exchange over Hondurans who | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
left the country and send money back home, that's 20% of the GDP. | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
That's not a great future. This will be a democracy. There will be | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
rule of law. The people will be there at their own choice and they | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
will have internationally respected rights in all demess. One of the | :14:09. | :14:19. | |
:14:19. | :14:28. | ||
In he off you, the judiciary would be outsourced? -- in your feud. | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
I wanted to be an international financial centres are they hide | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
judges from the UK, and new seat and, and so you have established | :14:38. | :14:46. | |
your credibility, we want your knowledge. The reality is if you | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
want credible institutions you can wait five undue delays or you can | :14:49. | :14:56. | |
bring them in now. -- 500 years. One part of the population were say | :14:56. | :15:03. | |
we will risk our lives to reach the US illegally, with a chance of | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
getting rapes or killed on the way, or to be there illegally, you have | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
reached that point Mac to say what do we not give you one more option. | :15:13. | :15:20. | |
On a sliver of land, that is not 1% of the territory, you create a new | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
environment so that those who wish to go there, you are creating an | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
option. If this vision works it is going to be attractive because it | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
is going to be economically successful. The drugs traffickers | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
will see money here and the criminals will see opportunities. | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
There will be many people who will want to bring all of the problems's | :15:40. | :15:47. | |
has to this model city that you are envisioning. I see it as the | :15:47. | :15:53. | |
opposite. First of all, there will be strong levels of insecurity. | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
Delivered by flu and? Their shore is not in the rest of the country. | :15:56. | :16:06. | |
:16:06. | :16:10. | ||
-- by whom -- they are sure isn't. Some say Honduras is as such a low | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
ebb they are ready to be sold snake oil from any source they can get it. | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
Really, the idea that in 20 years' time the spot where we are sitting | :16:21. | :16:29. | |
today could near the centre of a huge and successful new urban area | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
based on these principles of outsourcing, judicial power and | :16:34. | :16:41. | |
legal power, it is nothing more than a fantasy. Actually it is | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
nothing more than observing the success of that has taken place | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
again and again. You can look at the before and after photographs of | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
Hong Kong, Dubai, Singapore. You can see again and again, what was | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
once this barren Manhattan Island, turned out rather well. There are | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
patterns of success that can be observed and which work. The answer | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
is we have to come back here in 20 years' time. They queue for being | :17:10. | :17:18. | |
on HARDtalk thank you. -- thank you. The dream of building a new | :17:18. | :17:25. | |
Honduras seems far removed from the country's current dark reality. Of | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
neighbourhoods in the capital city under the control of violent gangs, | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
too dangerous to stop playing for a journalist like us, even for the | :17:35. | :17:42. | |
police -- to stop in. Right now, Honduras stands up hard inessential | :17:42. | :17:50. | |
America, more violent than corrupt -- in Central America. It is doomed | :17:50. | :17:57. | |
by a potential failing state. Which is why we wanted to talk to the | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
President. Despite repeated requests, he did not want to talk | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
to us. Instead, we were invited to the presidential palace by his | :18:06. | :18:14. | |
chief of staff. Welcome to HARDtalk thank you for having me. I want to | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
begin by quoting to you the words of the National Commission of Human | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
Rights you said a couple of months ago, such as the corrupt and at all | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
levels that this country is on the verge of becoming a furled state. | :18:29. | :18:36. | |
Do you accept that judgement? -- a failed state. What has happened | :18:36. | :18:43. | |
recently is that due to will the money that is flowing into the | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
country from the drug dealers we are turning into society that the | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
government has lost control of -- due to the money. The government | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
has lost control? Yes. We spoke to one trafficker who is trying to go | :18:57. | :19:04. | |
straight and was prepared to talk. He said that from his experience, | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
the organisations, the cartels and the gangs who are dealing in drugs | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
across borders, have such huge amounts of money they can buy | :19:12. | :19:19. | |
whoever they want. If that is true, it is a fundamental problem. I do | :19:19. | :19:27. | |
not think they can buy to whether they want. It is an outrageous | :19:27. | :19:34. | |
statement. I think they are able to buy people that have a tendency to | :19:34. | :19:42. | |
be corrupted. In the past, they have been corrupted by businessman | :19:42. | :19:49. | |
and now they are corrupted by drug dealers. The feeling in your | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
government is that a very significant proportion of your own | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
security forces, your own police forces in particular, are corrupt | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
and needs to be purged. What percentage of your own police force | :20:02. | :20:10. | |
do you believe will have to be got rid of? I am not an expert but what | :20:10. | :20:18. | |
I can tell you is that it will be a significant portion of the police | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
that will have to be purged. Since the military coup in 2009, more | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
than 300 civilian activists, were the trade unionists or Land Reform | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
Act this, toneless as well, more than 300 of these people have been | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
killed by state agencies -- journalists. We do not know that | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
they have been killed by state agencies. It is something they | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
claim that has happened. Several international community's have | :20:50. | :20:57. | |
looked at that and they have not been able to see that the state is | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
involved. What do you think? Do you think has killed the journalists | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
and the land reform activists? largest problem that we are facing | :21:08. | :21:18. | |
is impunity. Basically, you have a system that is so dysfunctional | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
that 97 of cases that are brought before the Supreme Court or the | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
judicial branch of thrown away, either because of the police not | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
doing their job correctly or the prosecutor who did not do his job | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
correctly, or it was the Church who do not do his job correctly -- the | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
judge -- 97%. That is something we are trying to change. Let me ask | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
you about the bigger picture. For many years, the Honduran political | :21:50. | :21:57. | |
and economic establishment has been dominated by a tiny few families. | :21:57. | :22:07. | |
:22:07. | :22:08. | ||
Until the system changes, it will be very difficult to persuade the | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
people the Government is accountable to the wishes and needs. | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
Do you accept that? Yes. I think most of the people in this | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
government are willing to do the reforms that this country needs. | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
Look - what we are trying to create is a different society. Society in | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
which the most important concern of the government is the human person. | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
That is very different from what we had in the past. How long have you | :22:37. | :22:44. | |
got to turn things around here before Honduras becomes a failed | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
state? I think that it with this government things have begun to | :22:48. | :22:58. | |
:22:58. | :23:00. | ||
turn around. Many of the least you mentioned are coming to realise | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
that they cannot expect politicians or governments to continue giving | :23:04. | :23:12. | |
them that kind of privilege they were given in the past. That is | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
something very important for the future of the country. We also have | :23:17. | :23:27. | |
:23:27. | :23:27. | ||
society, a civil society, that is more empowered and as -- is more | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
willing to attack... With respect, it does not sound and Howard when I | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
talk to civil society. Civil society is scared -- does not sound | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
empowered. They do have power because they are doing the job they | :23:41. | :23:50. | |
were supposed to do. They are the watchdogs of government, of this | :23:50. | :23:58. | |
has none. -- of businessmen. This is a special moment in our history, | :23:58. | :24:05. | |
the climax of violence. As with any climax it will begin to go down. I | :24:05. | :24:11. | |
can tell you at this moment that this will happen quickly and it may | :24:11. | :24:19. |