Maajid Nawaz - Chairman of Quilliam (counter extremisim organisation) HARDtalk

Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk. What is and is the most?

Are a potentially dangerous extremism or an activist whose

Muslim of faith is central to their political vision? My guess is in

the thick of that controversial debate. Maajid Nawaz is a Muslim

who became a radical Islamist. He was arrested in Hosni Mubarak's

hijab. When released, he launched a campaign to counter Islamist

ideology. To some he is a truth teller, to others a traitor. How

Maajid Nawaz, Aidan Guerra to HARDtalk. I alluded to an

extraordinary life story which has taking you to -- from rebellious

streak in in a typical English down to a diehard of radical Islamist

and now to some body absolutely committed to the political fight

against Islamism. Are you convinced that you have found yourself now?

Anyone who hasn't read my autobiography will end up with that

conclusion that I have. The reason I say that is when you arrive at

radical political thinking, you cannot accommodate all views as

long as all views tolerate each other. It is pretty easy to accept

differences at that stage. You remind me of of the famous

historian who declared the end of history and, of course, we have

seen plenty of history cents. Maybe there are things that can shake

your current belief? I do not think liberalism is Western. I do not

think we have reached the end of history. I think that human

civilisation is the combination of building upon what we learnt as

human beings from other civilisations. Even democracy,

originating in Greece, was preserved fruit and berries

cultures. The idea that Muslims are rebound is ingrained in the fact

that Islam does not have a clergy so there is no one official version.

There is nothing un-Islamic or unease and about tolerance. We're

going to talk about Islam and politics. The relationship between

the two. You were raised in a Muslim family in the UK. Are you an

observant Muslim? I would not hold myself out as a role-model. I am

not devout in any shape or form. Are you observed and? I do nothing

that term has very much meaning because everyone is a sinner. I

will pray and fast but I will not hold myself out as a role-model. I

am not speaking religion at all. I'm speaking politics, of the

dangers when one's view of religion is an force in the political sphere.

It is difficult. You are in an area where everything is complicated. It

seems to me one of the complications his personal

relationships are tied up with identity and religion and politics.

For example, since you have made your transformation, what have your

personal relationships been like with family, for example - have

some of them senior as a traitor? Might entire social life, including

my marriage, were with people that belong to my former organisation.

As somebody leaves a grip like that and becomes heavily critical of

that group, it has an impact on the relationships. I do not wanted this

respect those X family members or riven current family members and

they remain sympathetic to the is a must ideology. What I will say, by

criticising those used in public, they are no longer sympathetic to

me in and doing that work. As soon as you reach the decision of

renunciation of your previously held political views and ideology,

you knew, that your relationship, for example, with your wife had to

be over by definition? I have written about that. That is what I

have said. It is a decision that nobody can make lightly. So many

people believe is Ms organisations do not then go on to speak about it

in public because it has a social cost. It has an impact an effect on

the relationship they have built up over 10, 15 years of your life. It

is then not easy to make a conscious decision to say, I'm

going to speak about something I believe in and change what I used

to believe in but I am aware it will have a cost of my friendships

and relationships. I do not blame anyone for not taking that extras

that knowing that is the consequence of it. Let's start at

the beginning of your journey in it the small town of Southend in the

south-east Coast of England. What was it about your upbringing, do

you think, that led to open to the radical message? Was at

victimisation, racism? There was a lot of serious and violent racism I

experienced as a teenager. Attacks with hammers screwdrivers and nice.

There was police, institutional discrimination. These grievances I

maintained are insufficient as the only explanation for the process of

someone going towards extremism. Something else has to happen. Not

everyone that experiences racism joins extremists. In addition to

these grievances, I'm not excluding them, I sought at narrative that

tells people these grievances, and these races and so are simply

because I am a Muslim and in that I find solidarity with Muslims across

the world who are also targeted simply because they're Muslim. A

narrative emerges that Muslims are for all over the world and the

anyway to defend them is to fight back and defend them across the

world. The remorse and civil a great deal of sympathy and

political support for fellow Moors and suffering in other parts of the

well without going the step you just go? That is true. There is the

difference between those who joined his almost organisations and those

who do not. Coming back to my question. Why did you make that

step to believe that the only responsible answer for a Muslim his

active support and political duty to try and achieve this notion of a

cover for it? In general, Barack a few factors that lead into -- there

are few factors that lead to this. An acute sense of identity crisis,

not knowing whether I was British or Pakistanis or indeed Muslim.

These identities all came to a head and the 4th factor is a came across

a charismatic recruiter who was able to join the dots for me. I

wasn't angry 15 year-old, running from hammer attacks and dodging

police discrimination. The days before the mack fees and report. It

was a tempting narrative to explain to the grief, including in Bosnia.

If I may 0.2 and a story, you and your older brother, after a series

of skirmishes in your home town, you were confronting them one more

time and looked as though you were in for a very physical fight and

your older brother took charge and he managed to persuade these young

white kits to walk away in a way you were clearly impressed by. In

the retelling of that story, can you explain to me what it did to

your mind said? We were surrounded and outnumbered and out what a nice,

if you like, I pretty much sought we were about to get completely

beaten to a pulp. My brother step forward, he called the leader over

to the other side of the road. He said to the leader, these were near

announces paramilitaries, and is said to this man, you may outnumber

us, you may have more weapons than us but in my back here, I have a

bomb. If you choose to attack us, I will take you out and we were all

died but we do not fear death. My mother had adopted this is a this

narrative very year and had been attempted to recruit me and I had

been refusing because I did dot essentially one to change my last

off. When I saw this, I saw the immediate results than a narrative

could achieve, essentially a propaganda they can strike fear in

the hearts of your enemy. I realise that this was a form of protection

and identity that could achieve results. Again, as a 15 year-old,

it started to make sense. In the early Nineties and mid-Nineties,

Islamism was a revolutionary ideology of so many Muslims across

the world. If we fast forward, why then, when you were stuck in this

Egyptian prison, you had become an activist for Feteesha. You had gone

around trying to recruit -- activist for Reed -- Hizb ut-Tahir.

Why did due after being stuck in prison, why did your commitment we

can? I could have founded the group in four countries. I was 24. Very

young. When I entered prison, two things happen which began the five

new process of me unravelling my political ideology. They were - the

amnesty International adopted me and began campaigning for my

release. I really truly appreciated what I had defined as the other

campaigning for my rights even though I believe them to be my

enemy and the enemy of my people. That began a very humanisation

process. I started to empathise with the other. Why? Hosni Mubarak

security organisations were arresting huge number of Muslim

Brotherhood supporters, people they feed could undermine their grip on

power. You were one of them. Many of them reacted to being turned

into prisoners of conscience by hardening their political struggle.

But you do not harden your commitment. In fact, you lost your

commitment. I was actually involved quite heavily in the injured prop -

- uprising. Mike commitment to overthrowing dictators has remained

what I changed is the ideology. In fact, I have been at Tate --

attacked for all my anti- Hosni Mubarak attitudes. You seem to

suggest it was not a bad thing that the Egyptian court had dissolved

the parliament which as a result of a democratic election was dominated

by a Muslim Brotherhood. What I said was, we need the Democratic

Trinity to be rooted in Egyptian society - culture, institutions and

processes. What I said was that if people were worried the Brotherhood

were dominating the political thing, they should not be because they no

longer control parliament. I will not ever contradict the will of the

Egyptian people to say they have no right to elect who they won. When

you talk about the fears of a is a mistake over, -- Islamist take over,

in various different ways we have seen the Muslim Brotherhood of

playing an important role in the post revolutionary process and yet

we see democracy is winning out. The Muslim Brotherhood forces are

highly adaptable, highly flexible and appear, at the moment, to be

In Egypt and Tunisia, if we take the Tunisian example, their

experience at consoles. The Brotherhood, within their own

organisation, had the ability to progress at the on that line.

People are ratcheting the fear mongering are subscribing to the

neoconservative models. I'm trying to calm those he is down. I find it

strange that you are saying that I am end framing those fears. I had

been reading a lot of things. Looking back at some of the estate

MS, I am sure you will remember, when one of Britain's leading

newspapers got hold of a document which was said to be from your

organisation, one of the quotes are from this document was the ideology

that it is similar to violence but disagree on tactics. Do you still

believe that? Those who desire to impose an interpretation of Islam

over society is the definition of Islam are used in the document. I

still believe in does. -- this. The difference is Al-Qaeda attempted to

director terrorism said they are bad. Muslim Brotherhood attempt to

do it in a democracy. We expect the will of the Egyptian people to

elect them. I am very confused. Are you telling me that you still see

the people who are carrying power in Egypt, including the President

and the dominant forces in the Egyptian parliament, as broadly as

the same as the violence is a nurse but they differ in tactics? That is

not what we were saying. It is what you said. I asked you if he

retracted it. You can have communist who are militant and

communist-run not militant. They still believed in communism. The

difference in some believe in violence and others believe the net

three election. That is the same as his long. For you to sit there and

say that I am attempting to equate the brotherhood with the Al-Qaeda

when I clearly said we should refrain from interfering in

politics... It is rather odd. not trying to plant any notion in

your head or the audience's head. I am China makes sense in what you

have changed. He can be a communist and Lytton and a communist and not

a militant. But you still believe in the same ideology. I have

suffered personally. When you try and explain to me how you develop

to ideas from that particular quote that I mention, are you telling me

that you regard people like Muhammad more see as a man you can

trust or a man you have to fundamentally distressed because he

is still part of the Islamists move maybe who you say in ideological

terms is broadly similar to groups like Al-Qaeda? I distrust every

politician. I am saying some politicians a power-hungry. And

there are some who are distressed because of their ideologically but

they may not necessarily be corrupt. My concern with is the most

politicians is not their corruption necessarily, my concern is the

values and ideas they believe in. Tunisia have evolved. We must

constantly be vigilance and scrutinised the values and conducts

of every politician. What about the British Islamic -- Islamist

institutions which you organisation Spencer much time and energy

criticising. In the same memo, having changed your mind about it

being dominated by the is a must ideologies? -- is a must. We need

see engage with. I believe in the citizenship. The only issue in this

document is whether you are justified in calling them extreme s

and by clear indication at saying they're dangerous. The Muslim

community is made for many different views. It would be

incorrect but anyone to say as a whole the organisation is extremist.

We should not treat them as a separate entity from the rest of

the country. That is unhealthy for us Muslims themselves. There has

been a big debate in recent years about the degree to which to

understand extreme ideologies within the Muslim communities, you

have to understand the anger and the nationalist feeling that comes,

for example, with Western policies in Iraq. Do you believe that is

important? Absolutely. When you have suggested there is a pathway

from his Israel identity politics through to vocalisation, through to

extremism, through to violence, which does not pay accounts to this

anger that comes from Western actions in countries like Iraq - it

is misleading. I don't understand how it doesn't. Read a close Asian

is caused by a combination of grievances, charismatic group would

charismatic recruiters and a loss of identity. Identity crisis are

real. People are starting to embrace people are different skin

colour is in Britain. When I was growing up, it was not as inclusive.

Chaz magic recruiters need to be challenged. These factors need to

be addressed. You talk about the work you're doing. It has been

difficult for you are organisation because government funding has been

taken away. Your organisation was very heavily dependent on

government money. He �3 million over three years. When we founded

the organisation, we were 80% funded by public grants. Including

many other organisations. We were heavily funded by public funds.

That was cut in December, 2010. It was because we disagreed, at the

time, with the direction the Government was headed. Now that the

strategy has changed and the policy of the government has changed, we

have revitalised those relationships. But we are now

worried % privately funded. It allows me to do the work without

having to face questions about which government is funding year.

To be clear about it, when your opponents or say you were heavily

influenced by the government because you're taking govern money,

that was true to a certain extent. When we began realising, when we

began facing some of the challenges in the discussion, we did not

compromise. That is to our credit. We went out on alien to say we did

not agree with this aspect of the policy. -- on 8 million. As a

result, the relationship ended. you think de Arab Spring has

fundamentally changed mind steps in the West as well? And some of

beefier when your organisation was founded, that fear has dissipated.

-- some of the here. The Middle East has proven to be much more

flexible and tolerant than you would have expected. Not just me.

Tunisia were always quite flexible and adaptable. The fear element

which I have been trying to calm down with my articles, I've written

in many different publications, I had been trying to say to people

that it is not as bad as you here. These organisations do not form the

majority of the society. They are constrained by other political

parties and institutions. Many of the groups have shown an

inclination of ditching the idea... I have never paddled a conveyor

belt idea. Non-violent action isn't is a problem within itself. If

racism exists in society, whether at least a violent racism or not it

is still a problem. Like Wales -- likewise with business. If someone

believes in the an idea it is a problem for society. It needs to be