Lord Hannigfield - Former Conservative peer HARDtalk


Lord Hannigfield - Former Conservative peer

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lifeboats, will continue for as long as the tide is out.

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Those are the main stories, now it is time for HARDtalk.

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The expenses scandal tarnished those are the very heart of British

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democracy. Some politicians were shown to be greedy, and a few were

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criminals. And all went to jail. One of those is that the former

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leader of Essex County Council, Lord Huntingfield. Why did he do

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it? Is there something wrong with Britain's political culture and

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those are going to politics? What lessons can a lawmaker learned in

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prison? Lord Howe Enfield, welcome to

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HARDtalk. Why did you fiddle your expenses? -- Lord Hannigfield.

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didn't think I was. I thought what I was doing was okayed by the rules.

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I wouldn't have fiddled expenses if I thought it would ruin my career

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and I had never done anything criminal in my life. The case

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against you was clear, it was six charges under the Theft Act, which

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puts what you did for a par with stealing lead from a church roof or

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shoplifting. I hadn't a clue - no- one told me anything like that. I

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hadn't a clue that I was doing anything like that. You were

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arrested and charged it and went to jail. I am wondering, at the moment

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of your arrest, what was going through your mind? What did you

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feel about this? The worst part - it was over three years ago now -

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was when it all broke. I didn't think I had done anything wrong and

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it was like a tsunami, if you like, hitting me. This was before the

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arrest and before the trial. It was the early part of the media furore

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about the investigation of expenses. Not just me, but all the colleagues

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in both Houses of Parliament. surprised that you say you didn't

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know you did anything wrong or that anybody was up to it. Not everyone

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 74 seconds

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From what you've said, you clearly don't understand, the police don't

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understand. understand. You did something wrong,

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and you're not really facing up to it, are you? A riding we should

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move on, really. Because you clearly don't understand Lords'

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expenses. I understand Schumann behaviour, and when you spend some

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time in prison for a serious offence -- human. You're saying you

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didn't do anything wrong. I made a mistake, and I admit that. With

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hindsight, I wouldn't do that. I clearly didn't think I was doing

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anything wrong, because I loved my job, which I have lost. I would

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never have done anything to have jeopardised my job. People clearly

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didn't understand the way that Lord's' expenses operate. But you

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understood? No, I didn't. So it was pure ignorance? I think there was a

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mistake of mine. You said at one point that you did only about one

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minute per month of checking your expenses. We were just check our

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columns. 85% of the Lords did the same. 85% of the Lords did not go

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to jail. There were some lords who have said I should not have been

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her more lies in that way. I campaigned to have an inquiry as to

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why I was treated differently to other people. Actually, a lot of

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Lords paid money back. Why was I treated... To a certain extent,

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someone wanted one's scalp. So you were a victim? No, I am saying...

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But you are expressing a degree of victim would here. The taxpayers

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were the one paying. I was not getting paid. The were getting

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expenses, which she took to be paid. The taxpayers have done pretty well

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out of me. I have saved millions of pounds for the taxpayer. I have no

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qualms about that. I think my benefit to the taxpayers is

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something like 200 million. taxpayers were paying the money

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that you talk corruptly. Yes, but I have spent my life saving money for

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them. Oh, so it's alright? Yes, 13,000 against 200 million is OK,

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isn't it? Is it? Are you saying it is OK to act corruptly in a public

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office of public trust's I would never have behaved corruptly if I

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had known... But in the balance, it is fine? I have said over and over

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I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. I wouldn't have ever done

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anything criminal in my life. I spent 40 years working for the

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public for no pay. I have subsidised it, my family, my firm,

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it has subsidised my 40 years of public life. I was one of the first

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people to bring home care took Essex. Now 30,000 people benefit

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from that every day. I spent hours trying to keep local post offices

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are open, which we managed to do. The time I spent stopping night

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flights over London so people could sleep, I spent my life serving the

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public. The taxpayers' money is spent on services. To get value for

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money out of those services for the benefit of the people - which I

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spent my life doing - I made a mistake. I wouldn't have done it if

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I knew I was doing it. I wouldn't have wanted to ruin my job. I

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regret it, and I admit I made a mistake. Why was I treated rather

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differently to other peers? Perhaps they should be an inquiry into it?

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Why was I treated differently to dozens of Piers and MPs who were

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able to pay money back? People have said to me that we shouldn't have

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an inquiry -- we should have an inquiry as to why you were treated

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differently and ended up in prison. Did you have a lot of friends when

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he went to trial who rallied around you? Yes, a lot of them. They came

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to court to support you? You see. We were told that only one person

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from Essex came to Council to support you in court. A no. You had

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a lot of friends to rely on? I had a dozen or so people... I did what

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I was advised to do by my barrister. So after 40 years in public life

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there was this great campaign not to send you to prison because you

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are so popular? Or was it, rather, as David Cameron said - he was a

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shame to, of the actions of some politicians, his words. He meant

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people like you. It's all very well. A lot of the MPs were able to pay

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money back, as David Cameron was. Gordon Brown was. They could pay

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money back. They didn't ever end up in the courts, will stop I should

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have been allowed to, if it wasn't for the hatred of one person, I

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should have been allowed to pay money back, rather than end up in

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prison. There is a terrible sense of victim would coming from you,

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isn't there? There are people against you... It was all these

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terrible things that were happening... I literally had

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hundreds, if not thousands of letters of support. I have had two

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nasty letters during this whole period. I have had no - I have had

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hundreds of people, people come up to me in the street now and say

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they support me. Why does the Conservative Party not support you?

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Obviously it is a political thing. We live in a political world.

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can't see this great groundswell of support in favour of you because

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you didn't really do anything wrong? We will see in a few years'

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time, won't we? I am serving my sentence and I will be working for

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the public again. That is what I want to do. You'll still be sitting

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here, but you are not in the Conservative Party. -- peer. Do you

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think there is something fundamentally wrong in our

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political system? No. I think there is something rotten in the media.

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Let me get this straight - the Conservative Party has abandoned

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you. The courts have made an example of you. One unnamed person

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is victimising you, now the media. Is there any point way you will

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realise what you have done? I don't have to be sitting here today. I'm

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here because I would like to try and help people through what has

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happened to me. I'm not very keen on the way you are speaking to me

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at the moment because I don't have to be sitting here. I could retract

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into my shelf. Say why taking responsibility for being here...

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am trying to learn from experience. In this country we believe in

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democracy. The judge said I shouldn't have been doing what I

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did Dommett to we have to be rich to be in a democracy? -- what I

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did? Do we have... I would like to be able to talk to people about the

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savings I have made for people. When I agreed to do this today I

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thought we would be talking more about - it is pointless going over

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three years ago. I was just one of hundreds of people three years ago.

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There was something in the papers every day and it became a nightmare.

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It became almost suicidal for a lot of us. It became like a tsunami. I

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didn't think I did anything wrong. I am trying to rebuild my life and

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help other people rebuild their lives. One thing I learnt from this

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is that so many people don't have a chance to rebuild their lives. They

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make one mistake and then they are for ever having problems.

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Particularly young people. Well I would like to learn out of this and

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help out of this. To help young people stop reoffending, to stop

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causing problems for society. If we are not careful, all we do is

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create another lot of offenders. What one wants to try and do is to

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learn from it. I made a very big mistake, it has cost me enormously.

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I would like to try and stop other people making that mistake and to

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make certain that we perhaps, pate our politicians enough in the

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future. I am too cold to worry about that for now. To give them

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support to -- old. America gives their politicians much more support.

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Even in France and other countries. Instead of the media having a go at

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politicians all the time, we need to make certain we support them.

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There is a feeling in both Houses of Parliament that expenses were

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part of your pay. So you wouldn't have done this if you were paid

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more? I wouldn't have done it if I had some pay. I didn't have any pay.

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I paid staff - I use the money I talk to pay staff to work for the

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benefit of people like you, the country. So we should be grateful

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to you? I hope so, when you write it up. I will repeat, I was able to

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open post offices, I was able to stop... They should be more

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things. At the time of your trial and

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others the people that were rallying around you, I was talking

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to a lot of people who could not understand why people like you had

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tarnished this great parliamentary institution. The Prime Minister of

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the country and of saying he was ashamed of you. -- and sup. It

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suggests why politicians are the least trusted profession in this

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country. I don't think he said that of May. He meant all the ones who

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ended up in trouble. It did tarnish it. Going back to what I said,

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there had been a belief going on for many years that your expenses

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were part of your pay. You saw this from the MPs who did get paid that

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the boards, who don't get paid, were claiming default dispensers.

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85% of Pearce were claiming full expenses. You say you were to do

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something to stop people from reoffending. I wonder what the

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impact of prison was to you. impact of prison was that there are

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a tremendous amount of people in their he should not be. They should

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be having help to not reoffend. They are tarnished coming out annex

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criminal. They do not get a chance to rebuild their lives,

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particularly young people who have offended for the first time. A lot

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of people who go to prison cannot even read or write. A lot of people

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have young families. Prison visiting day was a bit like being

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in a nursery school. There were literally dozens of young children

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there. Or was it a shock for you to see all of that? It was a shock.

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Obviously a lot of their wives and children were suffering more than

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the prisoners were themselves. Once you are in prison you cannot do

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very much. It was the families who were so affected by it. What we're

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like before in terms of law and order? -- what would you like. Did

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it change the way you thought? changed the way I thought it in

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that I've always tried to help the underprivileged in educational

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terms, but we need to do more about that. We need to spend the money in

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a better way. So many things goes wrong for people around the age of

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15 or 16. That is when they start to really go wrong. If we had more

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help in the community for those 15 or 16-year-olds, we might stop them

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from offending in the first place. If we did more for the early

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offenders, if we gave them a more one-to-one a monitoring system to

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make sure that they did not reoffend. I was sitting next to a

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friend of mine who is a retired policeman. He was saying exactly

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the same thing. He supports me. We should do more for you for to stop

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them either fending or reoffending. I am trying to work back to

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something at the beginning of the conversation, you said that the

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shock of all of this... You use the word suicidal. Did you feel like

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that? I would not go into a Tube station at the time because the

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draw the train was worrying. I did have to have some professional help

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for a while. Just after it was announced that I was going to be

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prosecuted, I needed help. I a pity all the people who are awaiting the

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hacking charges at the moment. It is a terrible time because you are

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in an unknown area. I was unable to go into the Tube stations. Explain

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that. Why wouldn't you go into the Tube? Ban I was frightened I might

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throw myself in front of it. You conceded that it? I get myself away

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from situations that could have helped me. -- hurt me. I have

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received professional help and I am trying to rebuild my own confidence.

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It was very traumatic. In that sense, when he was sentenced to

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prison and you went in for the first time, was that a relief

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because you knew what you are doing for the next few months? Yes, it

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was a relief. The worst thing was being sentenced and then the

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unknown. Once I was in prison it was a relief. The media couldn't

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get a hold of me. I couldn't do anything and therefore it was a

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rest, which is ridiculous talking about. A rest? That is basically

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what prison is for a lot of people. Putting people in prison is not be

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answered. You need to do more to stop them from reoffending. Just

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shutting them up is not doing any good. The implication of some of

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the things you are saying is that they encourage people to reoffend

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because if you cannot rebuild your life, it must be even more

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difficult for people who are illiterate and have substance abuse

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problems. It is a nightmare. So many people do reoffend. So many

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people are in prison because of the circumstances. One needs to use the

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money that is being spent on prisons... Some people need to be

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shut up because they are violent, but I think everyone thinks that

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people imprisoned are. The majority are not violent. They need some

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rehabilitation. They need to get back to normal lives. Do you think

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that prison was the wrong place for you? Obviously I did, but it is not

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for me to comment on that. They decided I should go. No-one thought

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I would go to prison, but I did. I have learnt from it. Is the

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implication that politics is a rich man's game? If you have the money,

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you can get that the position? You are not in the rich category. Is it

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something that you have to be rich to get to the top? It seems to be

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easier to get to the top if you are rich. But is a mistake. Democracy

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must be about everyone. Everyone needs to be able to participate in

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people are well enough paid. The real problem is from the outside

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public they do imagine that politicians have money. The imagine

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I've got money because I may peer. The fact that you are bored means

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you have money. There is a lack of courage among the politicians, in

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the House of Commons in particular, thinking if they were underpaid

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they should have said, we are not paid the same as a head teacher or

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similar profession. They were cowardly and did not say that.

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know a lot of MPs operate on an enormous overdraft. They live

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almost on a day-to-day existence. A lot of marriages break up because

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of financial reasons. I think we do need to make certain that

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politicians in this country are paid in a way that rewards them.

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You have been back in the House of Lords. You ask. What do other

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members of the House of Lords think or say you? I have been welcomed

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back into the House of Lords. I got on well with everyone. I worked

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hard. Sometimes I would speak every single day. To a certain extent,

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people have welcomed me back. I have found a lot of friends there.

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I found it very welcoming to go back. You said you would not offend

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again and would not have done it if you had really known about it. Do

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you think you can rehabilitate your reputation? I think so. The judge

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said that. He said that he thought I would be able to. I think there

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is a possibility as long as I've don't try and do things that are

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not suitable. That's why it if I can spend some time on mental

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health issues and the rehabilitation areas that I talk

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about, particularly for young people. There is an enormous amount

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we could do as a country to help people. In Norway I think every

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prison ward has to have proper training. -- warden. You need

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better people in prison using the same money, helping the prisoners.

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Not just chatting them up, but giving them better help to make

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sure they do not reoffend. They can create in your life for themselves.

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It is a matter of being able to do a job or earn a living. For example,

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my house insurance was cancelled. I did not know that would happen.

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