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lifeboats, will continue for as long as the tide is out. | :00:02. | :00:10. | |
Those are the main stories, now it is time for HARDtalk. | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
The expenses scandal tarnished those are the very heart of British | :00:13. | :00:19. | |
democracy. Some politicians were shown to be greedy, and a few were | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
criminals. And all went to jail. One of those is that the former | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
leader of Essex County Council, Lord Huntingfield. Why did he do | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
it? Is there something wrong with Britain's political culture and | :00:32. | :00:40. | |
those are going to politics? What lessons can a lawmaker learned in | :00:40. | :00:50. | |
:00:50. | :01:05. | ||
prison? Lord Howe Enfield, welcome to | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
HARDtalk. Why did you fiddle your expenses? -- Lord Hannigfield. | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
didn't think I was. I thought what I was doing was okayed by the rules. | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
I wouldn't have fiddled expenses if I thought it would ruin my career | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
and I had never done anything criminal in my life. The case | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
against you was clear, it was six charges under the Theft Act, which | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
puts what you did for a par with stealing lead from a church roof or | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
shoplifting. I hadn't a clue - no- one told me anything like that. I | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
hadn't a clue that I was doing anything like that. You were | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
arrested and charged it and went to jail. I am wondering, at the moment | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
of your arrest, what was going through your mind? What did you | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
feel about this? The worst part - it was over three years ago now - | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
was when it all broke. I didn't think I had done anything wrong and | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
it was like a tsunami, if you like, hitting me. This was before the | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
arrest and before the trial. It was the early part of the media furore | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
about the investigation of expenses. Not just me, but all the colleagues | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
in both Houses of Parliament. surprised that you say you didn't | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
know you did anything wrong or that anybody was up to it. Not everyone | :02:27. | :02:37. | |
:02:37. | :02:37. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 74 seconds | :02:37. | :03:52. | |
From what you've said, you clearly don't understand, the police don't | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
understand. understand. You did something wrong, | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
and you're not really facing up to it, are you? A riding we should | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
move on, really. Because you clearly don't understand Lords' | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
expenses. I understand Schumann behaviour, and when you spend some | :04:10. | :04:20. | |
:04:20. | :04:21. | ||
time in prison for a serious offence -- human. You're saying you | :04:21. | :04:29. | |
didn't do anything wrong. I made a mistake, and I admit that. With | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
hindsight, I wouldn't do that. I clearly didn't think I was doing | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
anything wrong, because I loved my job, which I have lost. I would | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
never have done anything to have jeopardised my job. People clearly | :04:41. | :04:50. | |
didn't understand the way that Lord's' expenses operate. But you | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
understood? No, I didn't. So it was pure ignorance? I think there was a | :04:55. | :05:05. | |
:05:05. | :05:06. | ||
mistake of mine. You said at one point that you did only about one | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
minute per month of checking your expenses. We were just check our | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
columns. 85% of the Lords did the same. 85% of the Lords did not go | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
to jail. There were some lords who have said I should not have been | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
her more lies in that way. I campaigned to have an inquiry as to | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
why I was treated differently to other people. Actually, a lot of | :05:30. | :05:38. | |
Lords paid money back. Why was I treated... To a certain extent, | :05:38. | :05:46. | |
someone wanted one's scalp. So you were a victim? No, I am saying... | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
But you are expressing a degree of victim would here. The taxpayers | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
were the one paying. I was not getting paid. The were getting | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
expenses, which she took to be paid. The taxpayers have done pretty well | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
out of me. I have saved millions of pounds for the taxpayer. I have no | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
qualms about that. I think my benefit to the taxpayers is | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
something like 200 million. taxpayers were paying the money | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
that you talk corruptly. Yes, but I have spent my life saving money for | :06:17. | :06:26. | |
them. Oh, so it's alright? Yes, 13,000 against 200 million is OK, | :06:26. | :06:33. | |
isn't it? Is it? Are you saying it is OK to act corruptly in a public | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
office of public trust's I would never have behaved corruptly if I | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
had known... But in the balance, it is fine? I have said over and over | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. I wouldn't have ever done | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
anything criminal in my life. I spent 40 years working for the | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
public for no pay. I have subsidised it, my family, my firm, | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
it has subsidised my 40 years of public life. I was one of the first | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
people to bring home care took Essex. Now 30,000 people benefit | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
from that every day. I spent hours trying to keep local post offices | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
are open, which we managed to do. The time I spent stopping night | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
flights over London so people could sleep, I spent my life serving the | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
public. The taxpayers' money is spent on services. To get value for | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
money out of those services for the benefit of the people - which I | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
spent my life doing - I made a mistake. I wouldn't have done it if | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
I knew I was doing it. I wouldn't have wanted to ruin my job. I | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
regret it, and I admit I made a mistake. Why was I treated rather | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
differently to other peers? Perhaps they should be an inquiry into it? | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
Why was I treated differently to dozens of Piers and MPs who were | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
able to pay money back? People have said to me that we shouldn't have | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
an inquiry -- we should have an inquiry as to why you were treated | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
differently and ended up in prison. Did you have a lot of friends when | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
he went to trial who rallied around you? Yes, a lot of them. They came | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
to court to support you? You see. We were told that only one person | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
from Essex came to Council to support you in court. A no. You had | :08:17. | :08:26. | |
a lot of friends to rely on? I had a dozen or so people... I did what | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
I was advised to do by my barrister. So after 40 years in public life | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
there was this great campaign not to send you to prison because you | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
are so popular? Or was it, rather, as David Cameron said - he was a | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
shame to, of the actions of some politicians, his words. He meant | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
people like you. It's all very well. A lot of the MPs were able to pay | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
money back, as David Cameron was. Gordon Brown was. They could pay | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
money back. They didn't ever end up in the courts, will stop I should | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
have been allowed to, if it wasn't for the hatred of one person, I | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
should have been allowed to pay money back, rather than end up in | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
prison. There is a terrible sense of victim would coming from you, | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
isn't there? There are people against you... It was all these | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
terrible things that were happening... I literally had | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
hundreds, if not thousands of letters of support. I have had two | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
nasty letters during this whole period. I have had no - I have had | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
hundreds of people, people come up to me in the street now and say | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
they support me. Why does the Conservative Party not support you? | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
Obviously it is a political thing. We live in a political world. | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
can't see this great groundswell of support in favour of you because | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
you didn't really do anything wrong? We will see in a few years' | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
time, won't we? I am serving my sentence and I will be working for | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
the public again. That is what I want to do. You'll still be sitting | :10:02. | :10:12. | |
:10:12. | :10:18. | ||
here, but you are not in the Conservative Party. -- peer. Do you | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
think there is something fundamentally wrong in our | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
political system? No. I think there is something rotten in the media. | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
Let me get this straight - the Conservative Party has abandoned | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
you. The courts have made an example of you. One unnamed person | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
is victimising you, now the media. Is there any point way you will | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
realise what you have done? I don't have to be sitting here today. I'm | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
here because I would like to try and help people through what has | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
happened to me. I'm not very keen on the way you are speaking to me | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
at the moment because I don't have to be sitting here. I could retract | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
into my shelf. Say why taking responsibility for being here... | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
am trying to learn from experience. In this country we believe in | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
democracy. The judge said I shouldn't have been doing what I | :11:09. | :11:18. | |
:11:19. | :11:21. | ||
did Dommett to we have to be rich to be in a democracy? -- what I | :11:21. | :11:30. | |
did? Do we have... I would like to be able to talk to people about the | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
savings I have made for people. When I agreed to do this today I | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
thought we would be talking more about - it is pointless going over | :11:39. | :11:44. | |
three years ago. I was just one of hundreds of people three years ago. | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
There was something in the papers every day and it became a nightmare. | :11:47. | :11:54. | |
It became almost suicidal for a lot of us. It became like a tsunami. I | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
didn't think I did anything wrong. I am trying to rebuild my life and | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
help other people rebuild their lives. One thing I learnt from this | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
is that so many people don't have a chance to rebuild their lives. They | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
make one mistake and then they are for ever having problems. | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
Particularly young people. Well I would like to learn out of this and | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
help out of this. To help young people stop reoffending, to stop | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
causing problems for society. If we are not careful, all we do is | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
create another lot of offenders. What one wants to try and do is to | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
learn from it. I made a very big mistake, it has cost me enormously. | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
I would like to try and stop other people making that mistake and to | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
make certain that we perhaps, pate our politicians enough in the | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
future. I am too cold to worry about that for now. To give them | :12:42. | :12:50. | |
support to -- old. America gives their politicians much more support. | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
Even in France and other countries. Instead of the media having a go at | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
politicians all the time, we need to make certain we support them. | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
There is a feeling in both Houses of Parliament that expenses were | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
part of your pay. So you wouldn't have done this if you were paid | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
more? I wouldn't have done it if I had some pay. I didn't have any pay. | :13:16. | :13:23. | |
I paid staff - I use the money I talk to pay staff to work for the | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
benefit of people like you, the country. So we should be grateful | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
to you? I hope so, when you write it up. I will repeat, I was able to | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
open post offices, I was able to stop... They should be more | :13:36. | :13:46. | |
:13:46. | :13:46. | ||
things. At the time of your trial and | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
others the people that were rallying around you, I was talking | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
to a lot of people who could not understand why people like you had | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
tarnished this great parliamentary institution. The Prime Minister of | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
the country and of saying he was ashamed of you. -- and sup. It | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
suggests why politicians are the least trusted profession in this | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
country. I don't think he said that of May. He meant all the ones who | :14:16. | :14:24. | |
ended up in trouble. It did tarnish it. Going back to what I said, | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
there had been a belief going on for many years that your expenses | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
were part of your pay. You saw this from the MPs who did get paid that | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
the boards, who don't get paid, were claiming default dispensers. | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
85% of Pearce were claiming full expenses. You say you were to do | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
something to stop people from reoffending. I wonder what the | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
impact of prison was to you. impact of prison was that there are | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
a tremendous amount of people in their he should not be. They should | :14:58. | :15:06. | |
be having help to not reoffend. They are tarnished coming out annex | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
criminal. They do not get a chance to rebuild their lives, | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
particularly young people who have offended for the first time. A lot | :15:14. | :15:21. | |
of people who go to prison cannot even read or write. A lot of people | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
have young families. Prison visiting day was a bit like being | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
in a nursery school. There were literally dozens of young children | :15:31. | :15:38. | |
there. Or was it a shock for you to see all of that? It was a shock. | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
Obviously a lot of their wives and children were suffering more than | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
the prisoners were themselves. Once you are in prison you cannot do | :15:46. | :15:56. | |
:15:56. | :15:56. | ||
very much. It was the families who were so affected by it. What we're | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
like before in terms of law and order? -- what would you like. Did | :16:01. | :16:09. | |
it change the way you thought? changed the way I thought it in | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
that I've always tried to help the underprivileged in educational | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
terms, but we need to do more about that. We need to spend the money in | :16:18. | :16:26. | |
a better way. So many things goes wrong for people around the age of | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
15 or 16. That is when they start to really go wrong. If we had more | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
help in the community for those 15 or 16-year-olds, we might stop them | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
from offending in the first place. If we did more for the early | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
offenders, if we gave them a more one-to-one a monitoring system to | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
make sure that they did not reoffend. I was sitting next to a | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
friend of mine who is a retired policeman. He was saying exactly | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
the same thing. He supports me. We should do more for you for to stop | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
them either fending or reoffending. I am trying to work back to | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
something at the beginning of the conversation, you said that the | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
shock of all of this... You use the word suicidal. Did you feel like | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
that? I would not go into a Tube station at the time because the | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
draw the train was worrying. I did have to have some professional help | :17:27. | :17:35. | |
for a while. Just after it was announced that I was going to be | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
prosecuted, I needed help. I a pity all the people who are awaiting the | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
hacking charges at the moment. It is a terrible time because you are | :17:45. | :17:55. | |
in an unknown area. I was unable to go into the Tube stations. Explain | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
that. Why wouldn't you go into the Tube? Ban I was frightened I might | :18:00. | :18:10. | |
:18:10. | :18:12. | ||
throw myself in front of it. You conceded that it? I get myself away | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
from situations that could have helped me. -- hurt me. I have | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
received professional help and I am trying to rebuild my own confidence. | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
It was very traumatic. In that sense, when he was sentenced to | :18:28. | :18:37. | |
prison and you went in for the first time, was that a relief | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
because you knew what you are doing for the next few months? Yes, it | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
was a relief. The worst thing was being sentenced and then the | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
unknown. Once I was in prison it was a relief. The media couldn't | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
get a hold of me. I couldn't do anything and therefore it was a | :18:58. | :19:04. | |
rest, which is ridiculous talking about. A rest? That is basically | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
what prison is for a lot of people. Putting people in prison is not be | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
answered. You need to do more to stop them from reoffending. Just | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
shutting them up is not doing any good. The implication of some of | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
the things you are saying is that they encourage people to reoffend | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
because if you cannot rebuild your life, it must be even more | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
difficult for people who are illiterate and have substance abuse | :19:29. | :19:36. | |
problems. It is a nightmare. So many people do reoffend. So many | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
people are in prison because of the circumstances. One needs to use the | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
money that is being spent on prisons... Some people need to be | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
shut up because they are violent, but I think everyone thinks that | :19:48. | :19:57. | |
people imprisoned are. The majority are not violent. They need some | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
rehabilitation. They need to get back to normal lives. Do you think | :20:01. | :20:07. | |
that prison was the wrong place for you? Obviously I did, but it is not | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
for me to comment on that. They decided I should go. No-one thought | :20:12. | :20:20. | |
I would go to prison, but I did. I have learnt from it. Is the | :20:20. | :20:28. | |
implication that politics is a rich man's game? If you have the money, | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
you can get that the position? You are not in the rich category. Is it | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
something that you have to be rich to get to the top? It seems to be | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
easier to get to the top if you are rich. But is a mistake. Democracy | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
must be about everyone. Everyone needs to be able to participate in | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
people are well enough paid. The real problem is from the outside | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
public they do imagine that politicians have money. The imagine | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
I've got money because I may peer. The fact that you are bored means | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
you have money. There is a lack of courage among the politicians, in | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
the House of Commons in particular, thinking if they were underpaid | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
they should have said, we are not paid the same as a head teacher or | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
similar profession. They were cowardly and did not say that. | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
know a lot of MPs operate on an enormous overdraft. They live | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
almost on a day-to-day existence. A lot of marriages break up because | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
of financial reasons. I think we do need to make certain that | :21:36. | :21:44. | |
politicians in this country are paid in a way that rewards them. | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
You have been back in the House of Lords. You ask. What do other | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
members of the House of Lords think or say you? I have been welcomed | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
back into the House of Lords. I got on well with everyone. I worked | :21:57. | :22:05. | |
hard. Sometimes I would speak every single day. To a certain extent, | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
people have welcomed me back. I have found a lot of friends there. | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
I found it very welcoming to go back. You said you would not offend | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
again and would not have done it if you had really known about it. Do | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
you think you can rehabilitate your reputation? I think so. The judge | :22:26. | :22:36. | |
:22:36. | :22:38. | ||
said that. He said that he thought I would be able to. I think there | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
is a possibility as long as I've don't try and do things that are | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
not suitable. That's why it if I can spend some time on mental | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
health issues and the rehabilitation areas that I talk | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
about, particularly for young people. There is an enormous amount | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
we could do as a country to help people. In Norway I think every | :23:03. | :23:11. | |
prison ward has to have proper training. -- warden. You need | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
better people in prison using the same money, helping the prisoners. | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
Not just chatting them up, but giving them better help to make | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
sure they do not reoffend. They can create in your life for themselves. | :23:25. | :23:32. | |
It is a matter of being able to do a job or earn a living. For example, | :23:32. | :23:38. | |
my house insurance was cancelled. I did not know that would happen. | :23:38. | :23:43. |