Welshman Ncube - Secretary General, MDC, Zimbabwe HARDtalk

A ruling is expected on Tuesday. Now, it is time for HARDtalk.

Have opposition politicians in Zimbabwe learned the lessons of the

violent and disputed elections in 2008 in which Robert Mugabe and his

party Zanu-PF outmanoeuvred the Movement for Democratic Change, and

held onto power? The MDC has since been in an uneasy power-sharing

government, in which its main leader Morgan Tsvangirai is prime-

minister. But a breakaway MDC faction led by the Commerce and

Industry Minister, Welshman Ncube, is splintering the opposition ahead

of fresh elections due by next June. I speak to Welshman Ncube and asks

whether the opposition should be united to better oppose Zanu-PF? --

Welcome to our welcome to HARDtalk. It is a general rule in politics,

we can the opposition by splitting it. That is what you have done. --

weaken. It is correct that if the parties united, it would be easier

to win the elections than when we are all fighting from different

corners, but there are things which are fundamental in matters of

principle and policy that divide us and have made that difficult.

that more important than forming a credible opposition? What is

important is that when we oppose the other party, we must all be

clear and united. The alternative government must affect differences

from the previous government. When the things which divide us make

some of us doubt that a new government would be different, it

is important that we must oppose the previous government. There is

no point in removing it only to replace it with the same entity.

You are quoting Morgan genera with President Robert Mugabe? I'm not

equating anyone. I'm saying that those things that divide us go to

the heart about opposition. When we say we must be non-violent, we must

mean it and believe it. When our colleagues practise violence

against others... Which colleagues are you talking about here? Are you

accusing the MDC faction led by the Prime Minister of waging some kind

of campaign against your faction? am saying that the things which

divide us or divided us at the time of the split are things to do with

what I'm talking about. If we begin to act violently against each other

and against ourselves, if we begin to defy a collective decisions, and

we have local government structures which act as corruptly as they have,

those are the things that divide us. The MPC split back in 2005 -- in BC

Split, I will not go into the ins and outs of its, but he now lead a

breakaway faction. Should the NDC not just remain united under the

Prime Minister? He is highly acclaimed in international circles.

The things that divide us now make it impossible for us to work

together. What have you got against him? Absolutely nothing against him.

Our differences are in our political behaviour is and the

things we do as politicians. It is on record that our colleagues in

the other faction often practise violence. He himself has reversed

collectively made decisions. The local government structures have

acted corruptly. You refer to the faction led by Morgan, but that is

at odds with what the Community believes. The French government has

conferred on him the Legion of Honour. But says he upholds

universal aspirations, morals and the spirit of progress. The

Australian Prime Minister has said that he is like Nelson Mandela will

Aung San Suu Kyi, a remarkable figure of our times. The former

American ambassador to Zimbabwe has described him as brave, committed,

a Democrat. He is the only player on the scene with real star quality

and the ability to rally the masses. All of this is at odds with what

you say. I have lived in Zimbabwe and I work within these groups. I

can tell you that the things on which we differ are fundamental.

They go to the very heart of the struggle. We do not want to replace

Zanu-PF with something like that. But there is lavish praise heaped

upon Morgan Tsvangirai by a very international figures and it is not

consistent with what you're saying. Those who might be in Australia or

Paris or Washington are entitled to have their opinions about any of

the leaders in Zimbabwe. Just as much as we are entitled to have our

opinions about ourselves and our leader. But the former American

ambassador spent many years in Zimbabwe. And what I quoted was

what he said in 2010. Do you know what he said about you? I have read

what he said. Let me remind you. He described you as "Highly divisive"

and Sidhi should be taken off the political stage. -- said you should

be. Yes, and what is the question? What do you answer to? -- answer to

that quote? That is his opinion. As Democrats, we respected but we

disagree with that. I do not know what it means when an ambassador of

one of the biggest democracies in the world speaks of taking a leader

off the political stage. I think it is unfortunate and can't be

consistent with the values and principles the US wants to defend

around the world. When we look at the global political agreement

which came into force after the elections in 2008, he was stating

quite clearly that this has been a failure, not only because of

difficulties with Robert Mugabe, but within the MDC itself.

inclusive government has not been a total failure. Clearly, we have

failed in terms of political reforms. We should have created the

necessary conditions for free and fair elections by now and that has

not happened. There are many other reforms that we have not

implemented. However, in terms of where Zimbabwe was in 2008 in

economic terms, we have made a lot of progress. We were virtually on

the verge of collapse. We have managed to resuscitate the economy

and it is now working. People are still poor but you do not have an

economy which is basically on its knees any more. It is on its way to

recovery. Whether or not it recovers now depends on what

happens at the next election. have a 400 million dollar budget

deficit and growth head of -- has been downgraded from more than 9%

to 5.6%. Even their progress has been made from a very low base, are

things gone backwards now? -- going backwards. Some of the gains we

have made over the last three years are threatened now what reversal,

in particular as we move towards an election and begin to grandstand

around election rhetoric. The industry recovered from

capitalisation of 10% to 57% by the end of last year. It is not going

anywhere now, largely because of our failure to stabilise the

political environment and access lines of credit. We are beginning

to see a reversal, but we needed to move as quickly as we can. We hope

we can continue with the recovery. It is not just political

instability, because people do not know when the elections will be

happening. Is it also the in digitisation policy that came into

effect in 2011, whereby foreign companies have to hand over 51% of

the controlling share to local companies, and that has scared off

foreign investors? That is true. As the minister responsible for trade,

I spend a lot of my time talking to investors and business leaders in

and outside Zimbabwe. There is no doubt that the elephant in the room

is those laws. Many investors are unhappy with them and find it

difficult to invest in Zimbabwe. We must do some form of empowerment.

The thresholds which we have set out clearly unrealistic under the

circumstances. When you talk about empowerment, the idea is that you

make these interests more indigenous so the whole population

can benefit. What is the evidence that any benefits will trickle down

to the ordinary citizen? I do not like making things indigenous

personally, I do not think it has any precise meaning. I think the

term empowerment is more precise to what we want to achieve. We should

be talking about encouraging investment so we can create jobs

and employment for people and create the necessary business

environments for Zimbabwean citizens to compete with others.

Empowerment should not mean taking Zimbabwe is one of the richest

countries in Africa. The mineral wealth is second to none. The

climate and weather conditions, this land is among the best in the

world in terms of agriculture. If we can fix our politics, fix our

to able to deliver to our people by

delivering a strong economy and strong and successful business.

finance minister said that when he looked at the diamond field, he was

expecting $600 million to go into state coffers but he has only

are 230,000 fictitious government employees w employees wng salaries

some hop. And 10,000 jobs have been created in the past few weeks in

government. That is the reality of Zimbabwe. You talk about a new

thing, that is not happening? you look at the diamond wealth and

the diamond mining, mining, managing them properly we should be

getting the sort of money that the Minister of pop finance has been

mentioning. We are not doing it. The inclusi The inclusiment has not

functioned as we had expected it to do. There is a lack of transparency

around the diamond mine. All of those things cannot be fixed

harmless we have a free and fair election. You're have just stated

that to have no power? It is correct. There is a parallel

government in many respects. That is why the finance government says

there is no authority over the diamond mine and nothing

accountable to them. To you have any power as Minister of Commerce

and Industry to do what she would like to do to encourage investment

and empowerment. Do you have the power? Yes and tomorrow. We have

the authority to do those things that are within our mandate as a

ministry where we do not need the co-operation of any one house. We

have the power to do those things. But as a minister of industry where

we require the co-operation of other arms and ministers we do not

have the power. We're talking about the ministers controlled by Zanu-PF.

Let us talk about free elections which could bring about some kind

of stability. There is no date, you are squabbling about what should be

in the draft constitution? Correct. We should have the elections or the

parliament will stand up automatically good was dissolved on

29th June next year. The elections must be held no longer than the end

of October next year. We are expected to have done the

constitution earlier than now. You're talking about the Southern

African Development Corporation who were trying to mediate with all

this. Spell out what the disagreements are. The Movement for

Democratic Change are concerned about the powers of the Prime Mr

and control over the armed forces. You have disagreements about same-

sex marriage and dual citizenship. What are the stumbling blocks?

me start by saying, a fiercely there is an agreement. The

structure is what we have set to the parliamentary committee has

agreed on a draft constitution signed by representatives of all

parties and representatives of government. It has been overlooked

by the court. There is an agreement, we must underline that. What is

happening is an attempt by Zanu-PF to remake from the agreement by

rewriting the agreed draft to include all his things you have

mentioned. They are attempting to Junee ber of rights and to what you

make caught a declaration of rights. There are trying to recreate an

Imperial presidency. They want to introduce certain courses which

will undermine the judiciary. There are 200 amendments that they have

attempted to make that have all been already agreed on it draft

constitution. There is a deadlock. Is it worth delaying these

elections that you say Zimbabwe needs because of disagreement or

inability to put the new draft constitution to a referendum?

worth delaying the elections because it is no point rushing to

an election which will create another political deadlock that

will be with us for a long time. It is better to delay the election by

five months into the elections properly. Have the proper

constitution which will guarantee our liberties and curtail executive

power properly in a way that protects the citizens. An election

which will insure the electoral playing field is even and fear.

of your citizens who will run as a constitutional assembly says even

if they were a new constitution agreed, there is no basis for

supporting the document that has been decided by the politicians,

including you, Welshman Ncube. Where do the people figure in this?

He is entitled to his opinion. It is not just to us. He represents a

wide body of opinion. The three political parties in the government

represents a wider body of political opinion than anything and

civil society. The point I want to make is the constitution has to

have political leadership. There was no constitution anywhere in the

world that was made by civil society without political

structures. I want to ask you something very important. Let us

assume that elections happen and to overcome these problems, one Major-

General was quoted in all Africa magazine and 2012 saying the army

will not let the Movement for Democratic Change takeover power if

it wins the election because it does not represent the ideology of

liberation struggle. Whatever happens, you have opposition from

the Army? What happens with that? The higher levels of the military

have made statements like that. It is also true that the rank and file

of the military in Zimbabwe does not necessarily come from that

school of thought. What is raised the issues to say there is

no point having an election unless the road map to the election

includes guarantees and undertakings from the military.

Undertakings that the military will accept the verdict of the people.

There must accept in the advance of the election that the sovereignty

lies and the people not the military. Morgan Tsvangirai says he

will not contest elections if Zanu- PF sets a President? Would you?

cannot determine for other parties who the candidates are. It is up to