Dominic Raab - British Conservative MP HARDtalk


Dominic Raab - British Conservative MP

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purpose. Time for HARDtalk.

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Britain's Conservative Party is under fire from all sides. Stuck in

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a fractious coalition with the country's Liberal Democrats,

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criticised in European circles for isolationism and split from within

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between centrist conservatives, like the British Prime Minister,

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and those pushing to the radical right, at least in economic terms.

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Dominic Raab is a rising neo- liberal star in the Conservative

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Party. But is his movement doing the party it comes from more harm

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than good? Welcome to HARDtalk. The

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Conservative Party promised tough measures to boost the slumping

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economy. Do you think harsher measures are needed? I think we are

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making excellent process. We are facing a huge debt crisis that has

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not been fully understood. I think governments have made important

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progress. Of course, we need to build on it.

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Specifically? I'm not defeatist about Britain's

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prospects. I think it is important for a backbencher like myself to

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take a big picture view. Decline is not inevitable. We have to face up

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to the debt challenge that we face. We have to plug the skills gap. We

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need to reward and recognise, and value hard work. If we face up to

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the challenges I think Britain's best days are ahead of us.

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You have called for tax cuts and cuts to public spending as well. If

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we look at the measures taken by the coalition government...

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Departmental spending is being reduced by 11% in real terms

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between 2012-2015. And yet the economy has shrunk.

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First of all, we promised to cut the deficit within this Parliament.

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We are one-quarter of the way through doing that. That is solid

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progress. In terms of firing up economic growth, of course we are

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in a rut at the moment. We have created over one million private

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jobs. We are heading in the right direction. We need to take a big

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picture view. In the long-term, the challenges we face are very serious,

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we need to sharpen our economic edge.

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Sharpening the economic edge, taking a tougher stance than with

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what you were elected? You announced you're a Thatcherite, you

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say the definition of fair dismissal should be widened. Small

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business should be excluded from paying the minimum wage for under

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21s. It is not very generous as it You described me as a neo-liberal

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star, I have never been called that before I will have to look it up. I

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think these are practical measures. Take the minimum wage. Small

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businesses are saying, we have got so much red tape, we are deterred,

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we do not want to hire. I did not say it should be removed, it should

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be suspended for under 21s, just for small businesses. We have got

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youth unemployment of 22%. Who gives them a shot and an

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opportunity? Somebody has got to speak up for the youth unemployed.

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This is a measure which is not only important economically, but also

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socially. Are you saying, speak up by

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offering them less? At the moment they do not have a job.

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If you reduce the minimum wage, reduce public spending... I did not

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say reduce the minimum wage. Businesses are not hiring enough.

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22% youth unemployed. If we can create more jobs overall, isn't

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that a good thing? Isn't it better for those 22% to get into the

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workplace and get that shot at making it? Making the best use of

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their talents to make it up the professional ladder. It is a win-

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win. If you have a look at France and the new President, Francois

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Hollande, he has spoken in favour of increasing public spending in

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education to give young people more of a chance. He is taking a

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different direction. He says increased taxes on the wealthy to

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give those who are disadvantaged... To be honest, he has not dealt with

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the huge public spending problems they have got. It has been

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ridiculed. The markets are increasingly worried France will

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fall into a debt trap. It cannot be right to keep spending more. Let's

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speak about Britain's problem. We have got household debt at around

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80%. Banking liabilities of 450 % as a percentage of GDP. It cannot

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be right to keep spending more. We have got to face up. We do not face

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challenges from the US and within Europe now, we have got Latin

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America, Asia, working hard and taking a much more aggressive

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approach. Working hard as well. We have got to learn some of the

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lessons. Looking at this country, spending

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less has not boosted growth. Public spending has been rising.

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Public sector job losses across the cuts have been part of the problem.

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It is impossible to sustain when you look at the figures. We have

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back loaded the cuts and public spending has been rising. We have

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got too much public spending. It rose by 14% under the last

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government. We are in an economic rut. It will take the dynamism of

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free enterprise to pull us through it. We are seeing signs of that, we

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need to go further. Should growth be more important

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than fairness? There is a book you recently published, you argue we

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have to ensure the general climate for business is attractive. We

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should stop indulging in irrelevant debates about sharing the pie

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between the north-south, women-men, but the focus of this coalition

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government is we are all in it together.

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What is going to drive economic growth? If you do not drive

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economic growth, who pays the taxes that cover the revenue for the

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public services? Unless you have got economic growth, you cannot pay

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for those things in the public sector.

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Is it growth over fairness? I do not accept that a zero-sum game.

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Unless we see economic competitiveness driving jobs growth

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and tax revenue, you are not going to deliver social justice that we

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keep talking about. The number one priority has got to be the economy.

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22% youth unemployment. Who speaks up for them in this debate?

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In the meantime, you are saying that fairness is irrelevant.

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Fairness comes afterwards. That goes against the Prime Minister.

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David Cameron, soon after the coalition was formed he said I want

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to cut the deficit in a way that is open, united and fair. It is not

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going to be fair if we do not look at the differences between north-

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south, men-women. What we are trying to do with welfare

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dependency, make sure hard-working families do not feel penalised

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because they are not taking the easy option and sitting on their

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hands and relying on benefits. That is incredibly important. If we take

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a longer term view and look to the next 20 years, understand one thing.

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We have got a huge debt problem. Five times the size of the debt

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legacy we had at the end of World War II. According to the Economic

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Institute for Social Research each child will have to pay off �200,000

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of a tax bill in order to enjoy the same level of public services

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previous generations have enjoyed. In order to improve that situation,

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you say that Britain should learn Israel...

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You are very damning when you come to your own electorate.

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Once they enter the workplace the British are amongst the worst

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idlers in the world. What we are quoting from, Niall Ferguson, a

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respected historian. If you look back to the 19th century, what we

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have got is a reduction in the number of working hours. Let me

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explain. You have had a cheap shot. Before you quote about working

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hours, according to the ONS, the out of full-time workers in Britain

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are the highest in Europe. That is aside from Austria and Greece.

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tells you more about Europe. You are simply wrong. Are you

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disagreeing... Since World War II, since the '50s,

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average working hours in Britain have been reduced by one-third. The

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problem is not just the workforce, it is the fact we are retiring

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earlier, despite longer life expectancy. It is also about the

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welfare dependency we have got. Britain is not lazy at all, a

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shrinking proportion of people in this country are pedalling harder

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and harder to sustain and drive the economy and pay for the public

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services we want. That is socially divisive. We talk about welfare

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dependency, marginal rates of taxation. Hard work should pay more.

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We are going to have to retire a bit later. You talk about the

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declining British work ethic. Indian children aspire to be

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doctors and businessmen, Britons aspires to be pop singers. We have

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been ducking tough subjects, not focusing on maths and science. We

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are talking about the length of education rather than the life

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skills. It is not in the interest of the economy. Margaret Hodge

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talked about Mickey Mouse degrees. You say I'm insulting the

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electorate. Let me reply. Look at Ofsted's report in 2005. 50% of 20

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year-olds said their education did not acquit them for their first job.

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We have been kidding ourselves with the education system. The fact we

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spend so much time in the book talking about this, shows we are

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not on some small state agenda, we are worried about some of the

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public services that are critical for the long-term future of this

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country. As for the long-term future, should it be inside or

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outside Europe? This is dividing the Conservative Party. A thorn in

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Voices inside the party saying to pull out of Europe. David Cameron

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saying we are staying in it. vast majority, the overwhelming

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majority of the Conservative Party think we need to renegotiate our

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relationship. Of course the Prime Minister is in a very difficult

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position because we did not win an outright majority. The Liberal

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Democrats take a very different view. If you are trying to say the

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Conservative Party is divided, that is not correct. There have been a

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few voices, but you do not have the fractious divisions we have seen in

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the past. You mean under the former Conservative Prime Minister, John

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Major? You are seeing splits within the party, some people saying, more

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power has to come back from Europe, others calling for a referendum.

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They are saying roughly the same thing. Even John Major said we need

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massive renegotiation of Britain's position. I think we need a

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referendum at some point. My opinion is we need to renegotiate

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the relationship. We want to break down the barriers and promote the

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four freedoms. That is the vision I have for Europe. I think it is a

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great thing. I would like to get back to that. I do not want to see

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centralised government running economic policy and social policy.

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We need to get back to a relationship focused on trade,

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breaking down the barriers to commerce and with much stronger

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economic foundations. I would like to renegotiate to that effect. The

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outcome should go to a referendum. When the time is right. But if

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there is such a renegotiation, that could damage relationships with

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Britain's key trading partners. When the British Prime Minister,

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David Cameron, used his veto in the important summit before Christmas,

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you had the German Chancellor saying we look forward to seeing

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Britain leading in Europe rather than staying isolated. It is a

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dangerous game to play. It needs to be handled sensitively. I am not

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anti-European but there are two points. Any honest conversation

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with our European partners, that we don't want to see moves towards a

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federal Europe and if they go that way we need to move back. In any

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event, we need to renegotiate our relationship in the way I described.

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That is important. I do think we need to be sensitive in the way we

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handle that. We also need to look at the big picture. You say it is

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our major trading partner but since 2004 we have had more trade

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internationally, exports and imports, with the rest of the world.

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Put together? As a result of globalisation, the EU is important

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but it's a shrinking share of our trade. In fact, it accounts for

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about the 6th or 7th of GDP. Let's not kid ourselves. It is important

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but there is the rest of the world, Asia and Latin America, where we

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ought to be promoting trade. other side of the argument, those

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inside the Conservative Party who are calling to lead Europe. They

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cite that economic argument. Douglas Carswell is one

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Conservative backbencher who's part of a small group calling itself

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Better Off Out. He says the euro crisis has destroyed the case for

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EU membership. He says we are now having to prop up a zombie currency,

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that we didn't even join. He says to leave it. Douglas is one of the

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great figures in the party. I am not calling for withdrawal from the

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EU. I would like to see if we can renegotiate so we have a

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constructive and flexible relationship. The truth is, in the

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Conservative Party and the Labour Party, there are people who want us

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to withdraw but that's not where I am. I want to be focused on trade

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and commerce and make sure we get the best out of the single market.

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If we can't get that re-negotiation, perhaps we will have to look at

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pulling out. It's a challenge for Europe and Britain. You have

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referred to the pressures this Europe debate's putting on the

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shaky coalition government. What is the question? The Lib Dems are pro-

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European. We have a debate within the Conservative Party calling for

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a referendum. That is putting a lot of pressure on a coalition

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government that is already in trouble. It is new to the press

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here but in other parts of Europe, they are used to a coalition

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government. It is perfectly natural that you will have different voices

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heard and different debates. That is not unhealthy. We should have

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more debate, not less, and certainly with a coalition

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government. There are many other stresses and strengths of a

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coalition. -- strains. The idea we walk around obsessed with Europe

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every day is ludicrous. Back to Europe. Your strategy for growth is

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seen, in economic terms... Seen by who? The BBC? You talk about cheap

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shots. I'm just asking. They're labels. You are asking for the

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minimum wage for the other... For public spending to be cut. This is

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not the current government's strategy in regards to the economy.

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I'm not sure about that. Look at some of the things we talked about,

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cutting red tape. Vince Cable just announced he is taking on board

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some of the ideas I came up with, like making sure... He is the

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business secretary. Yes. He is taking up some of the ideas I

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talked about. We should not see so many conspiracy theories go to the

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tribunal. We are less snobby in this country with the idea that you

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have to go to university. Many of the ideas we have been talking

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about have been taken up by the coalition. It shows we should have

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a balanced source of ideas and we should debate these things. David

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Cameron has been labelled in parts of the British press, right wing

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British press, as wishy-washy and has been forced to do so because he

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is in a coalition government. Whereas others in your party are

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seen as more to the right of that. As it approaches the next election,

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in 2015 in the UK, what will be the tone as regards to economics for

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the Conservative Party? I'm not sure. Firstly, I believe David

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Cameron is doing a very good job in very tough financial and political

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conditions. There is a lot of tittle-tattle in the media and

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among some quarters of the Conservative Party, and I do not

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believe any of that for a second. I will not predict whether the Prime

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Minister will lead us. But we have to be clear about two things. We

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are taking seriously the debt crisis that threatens not just our

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economic competitiveness but the prospects of the next generation.

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And we are equipping the private sector with the skills and also

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cutting the regulatory burden on them so that they can deliver the

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jobs and prosperity that we need in this country. Both in terms of

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economic opportunities and, as I said before, somebody has to pay

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for the revenue to pay for the public services we want and that

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comes from the dynamic public sector. If the free marketeers,

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this growing voice... Stop picking up on that label! Can the Coalition

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survive that? If that gathers momentum leading ahead to the

:21:59.:22:03.

election, can the Coalition live with that? Why not? If Nick Clegg

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is calling for a fairer society and is much more wary about what areas

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of public spending can be cut... Within the Coalition there are

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natural tensions. I have already given you some examples. Some of

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the ideas from the Coalition have been disruptive and taken on board.

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-- constructive and been taken on board. That's the way it will

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continue. We will see these tussles and a sort of creative tension

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between ideas but hopefully that produces a critical mass of ideas

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on which there is a common ground, free enterprise. The Lib Dems

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should stand for that as well as the Conservatives. Some of my ideas

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are important. There is common ground and there is nobody that has

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been more outspoken about civil liberties than me. Many of my

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colleagues agree with that. There is plenty of glue in there to keep

:22:59.:23:02.

the Coalition together. What about the party itself? Is David Cameron

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the man to lead forward into the next election? Absolutely. What

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about Boris Johnson? Many mention the gregarious Mayor of London as a

:23:08.:23:11.

possible contender. But nobody is seriously suggesting that David

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Cameron will not lead us into the next election. Boris has been

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fantastic. It is incredible what he achieved in London, both in terms

:23:18.:23:23.

of improving the city and beating Labour. But I don't think he or

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anybody else in the Conservative Party seriously thinks that he will

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be challenging David Cameron. He is the right guy to be leading us into

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the next election and I have no doubt he will. What about, once

:23:35.:23:38.

again, within the Tory party and within the Conservative Party, you

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say it is all united. There are however figures, Liam Fox or David

:23:45.:23:48.

Davis, that have been critical of the Coalition government, saying

:23:48.:23:55.

more has to be done. It isn't enough just to talk tough about

:23:55.:24:02.

spending but something needs to be done. You appear to stand with them,

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not necessarily behind the Prime Minister. There are voices in the

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Conservative Party that articulate conservative vision and ideas and

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that is healthy. There are also others. We don't think that is

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unhealthy. You don't seem to really understand why. Having constructive

:24:19.:24:24.

debate, as long as it is not personal... We should have more

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critical debate on policy areas and the big issues. The public want to

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