Browse content similar to Guy Verhofstadt & Richard Ashworth - Members of the European Parliament. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
his mother. When he's strong enough, he'll join his father outdoors. Now | :00:03. | :00:13. | |
:00:13. | :00:14. | ||
on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk. Europe's economic crisis is pushing | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
its leaders further and further down the road to economic | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
integration than some may have imagined. This is raising questions | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
about what is left of individual country's powers and identity. At a | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
time when EU citizens say they have never trusted the EU left - what is | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
their goal - to become a Federal superstate or stay a monetary union | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
based on common economic interests. I have come to the heart of | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
European Brisbane to the European Parliament to speak to Richard | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
Ashworth, and Guy Verhofstadt, who is a former Belgium Prime Minister. | :00:51. | :01:01. | |
:01:01. | :01:15. | ||
Where is the EU project going, and Richard Ashworth, and Guy | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
Verhofstadt, welcome to HARDtalk. The man regarded by proEuropeans as | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
the forefather would -- pro- Europeans as the forefather would | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
like to see the crisis as an initiative, and to see us go | :01:31. | :01:37. | |
forward. Is this crisis an EU opportunity? You can say never | :01:37. | :01:45. | |
waste a crisis. I think at this moment it's necessary to use this | :01:45. | :01:51. | |
crisis to reform the European Union. That means that instead of having a | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
loose consideration of nation states, what we have today, we need | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
to build up what I call a Federal European Union because otherwise | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
you can continue with the single currency. This crisis around the | :02:04. | :02:10. | |
single currency has shown us that we need to also build up an | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
economic union, a fiscal union and a political union, just as you have | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
a real Federal state behind the dollar, and you have a state behind | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
the yen. A closer union, is that the way forward? I'm picking up on | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
your word of opportunity. I wholeheartedly agree with that word. | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
It's an opportunity for Eurozone member states to address structural | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
issues, which they have. The architecture of it is not fit for | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
purpose. It needs to be changed. It's an opportunity for those | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
nations that do not wish to integrate further, but value the | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
opportunity of working with 27 like-minded states to redefine that | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
relationship. It's a time for change, and an opportunity for all. | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
You say there's choice, and we'll get on to the idea of a two-tier or | :03:03. | :03:10. | |
two-speed Europe. Yes. powerhouse of the European Union, | :03:10. | :03:17. | |
Germany, Chancellor Angela Merkel says we need monetary, fiscal, bj | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
etry and a political -- budgetry, and political union. She says | :03:22. | :03:31. | |
there's not just one way forward. One thing we share is that it is | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
vital thatle European union and -- that the European Union survive. To | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
make changes it involves closer integration, a chaise which the | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
Eurozone nations have to mag -- a choice which the Eurozone nations | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
have to make. At the same time, this is a moment where we have to | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
sit together intelligently, and understand the needs of the others. | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
There are 10 nations not in the Eurozone at the present time. We | :03:58. | :04:05. | |
need to understand what they want from this relationship, and how to | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
inform an intelligent solution. That is the point. In terms of | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
people lacking the will to support the European Union, it is seen as | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
the cause of the problems, not the solution. That is not true. If you | :04:21. | :04:28. | |
look to the problems today, it's clear that more euro - certainly I | :04:28. | :04:35. | |
agree with that that it can be a difference between countries with | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
another currency, but it is a solution more the crisis. What does | :04:39. | :04:48. | |
that mean - more Europe? Let me make a comparison. US have a public | :04:48. | :04:58. | |
:04:58. | :05:00. | ||
deficit. They have 103% of that It's a world record. They paid | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
lower interest rates. Even when there was a bankruptcy, that | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
doesn't mean there was a dollar. Why the difference with us. A | :05:09. | :05:16. | |
little economy like Greece, where it creates chaos in Europe, while | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
there is a state behind the yen. A real Federal state behind the | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
dollar. At the moment there's no state behind the dollar. You | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
mingsed what the press refer to as the -- mentioned what the press | :05:31. | :05:40. | |
refer to as the "F" word or the F bomb. What do you ep vizage. | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
Winston Church -- envisage. Winston Churchill said we need a United | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
States of Europe not to be joined by the British. That was his idea. | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
He said that is the way forward for the country to create the United | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
States of Europe. That means in reality you have a common Treasury, | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
one Minister of Finance dealing with economic and fiscal policies | :06:02. | :06:11. | |
of the country. Also, a single bond market. A Europe bond market. Lets | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
be honest, the biggest bond markets in Europe is Germany, and it's 10 | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
times smaller than the bond markets in the United States of America, | :06:19. | :06:27. | |
and has a lack of lick wittedity. I think the crisis -- liquidity. I | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
think the crisis can be sourced if we create a bond market. It's | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
impossible to deal with a currency if you have 70 governments, 70 | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
Ministers of finance, and different economic strategies. More appear to | :06:44. | :06:51. | |
follow suit that economic union is necessary. Does one need to jump | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
towards that? One warned "I would take precaution in introducing | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
Federalism into the equation, raising the bar of the European | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
Union to the theoretical". I don't think it will work, a single | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
currency if you don't have a political union. That's what rating | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
agencies say. They say the lack of economic and political integration | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
is the reason why we are downgrading some of these countries. | :07:22. | :07:29. | |
We accept a lot of those points. The Eurozone nations need to | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
integrate more. Britain wouldn't want to join. A reason is we doubt | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
whether nations that have enormous disparity between economic | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
efficiencies and competitiveness can make comfortable bed fellows. | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
The other point we are wanting to make is we are talking about the | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
United States of America or Europe. The global situation changes on a | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
daily basis. We are facing challenges to economies which are | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
emerging, south-east Asia, Brazil, and others. They are all | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
challenging us today. We in Britain are conscious of that, we are | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
acutely conscious that competitiveness is an issue, that's | :08:13. | :08:20. | |
why we want an outward looking competitive D-rated economy. We | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
feel the integrated call of Eurozone countries will lose site | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
of the objective, which is global competitiveness. It may be that | :08:29. | :08:35. | |
some nations like Greece, Spain, Italy. It may be that they can | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
change, deregulate. That's for them to prove. In the meantime I have | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
doubts, and I'm sure the United Kingdom has doubts for the time | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
being. We would be unlikely to want to participate in the Eurozone at | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
all. If you stay on the outside, don't you risk isolation. This is a | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
subject of debate in the European press and the European parliament | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
over and over again. This is where we in this European parliament have | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
to talk intelligently together and work out a formula where you can. I | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
don't see a contradiction between an inner core group and an outer | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
core of people who do not wish to join the Eurozone. They have to co- | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
exist. The single market is too big an issue to lose. Surely the | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
actions of one affect another. It's been said that the Swedish | :09:32. | :09:42. | |
:09:42. | :09:44. | ||
Government, who is tending towards an a la carte proposition - that | :09:44. | :09:51. | |
issues could be decided on 27 member states - you can't afford to | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
stay outside. I can't pretend that that is not the real $64,000 | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
question - how does that impact on the interests of the City of London, | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
on the United Kingdom's economy. I don't think anybody could pretend | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
that you could sneak this in without major change. We have a | :10:09. | :10:17. | |
test with the backing union. I have to tell you, I'm on the line that I | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
think single financial supervision has to be established in the | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
banking union. It has to be for the 27, not the 17. I'm not in favour | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
of the proposal of the Commission. We are giving that task to the | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
European Central Bank, because I think you have to make a split | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
between tasks, tasks of the European Central Bank. The task has | :10:41. | :10:49. | |
to be given or be a merger of the three existing bodies, European | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
banking authorities and the others - merge them into SSA, and that is | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
a better way forward than to create financial supervision inside a | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
union that is different for the 17. I completely agree with that. That | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
legislation has been put in place. We have had regulations which | :11:11. | :11:18. | |
control the banking sector. We are indulging in opinion polls, showing | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
that European citizens go on. It's the elite deciding what happens | :11:23. | :11:30. | |
with Europe. Is there a public app fight for integration. There's | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
research centres, global attitudes projects in May. It shows a | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
resistance to the decision to grant European Union the authority to | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
exercise limited oversized national budget. You are talking about | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
service. Let's talk about the political reality on the ground. | :11:49. | :11:59. | |
:11:59. | :11:59. | ||
Are you dismissing all of this. I say the last election in the | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
Netherlands refused the treaty in a referendum seven years ago. It is | :12:04. | :12:12. | |
different. We have seen a shift from that to pro-European voting. | :12:12. | :12:22. | |
see it in Greece, France. Sorry, I can say that, the right wing party, | :12:22. | :12:29. | |
and the left wing party, anti- European socialist movements have | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
lost the elections. Winners were pro-European forces. Why is that | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
hag in the Netherlands. Because the Dutch are not stupid. They -- | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
happening in the Netherlands. Because of the Dutch are not stupid. | :12:44. | :12:51. | |
The euro is the engine of growth, of the range of enterprises, | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
logistic enterprises. They voted for pro-European political parties | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
because they want to maintain the euro. One of the biggest economic | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
engines from Europe, the newspaper, shows recently in a new poll, that | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
64% of French would vote against ratifying the treaty. 60% of | :13:15. | :13:25. | |
respondents said they were in There is a lack of politicians in | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
France to say to public opinion it is in the interest of France to | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
have a more integrated Europe. The problem in Europe or the continent | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
- I do not talk about Great Britain - but on the continue known there | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
is a fall-away. Most political leaders follow Nationalist and | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
populist rhetoric. Democracy as a political leader, developing | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
efficient say trying to convince the public oh pin Ron to follow his | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
vision. Not what is happening now. Nationalist and populist rhetoric | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
in Sweden, in Finland, in France that is gaining ground. What are | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
people supposed to make of it then? You say they support the single | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
market. 25 million people out of work cannot be that thrilled about | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
it. Growth stagnant across. The EU, unemployment in youth in Spain up | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
to 49%. The people will say we believe in the single market, we | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
think there is something here that can help us but actually it is | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
perceived by us to shall the cause of our problems, you have the turn | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
this into the solution. Is the challenge, the people like you and | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
I have. I agree. We have always to say to these people, you - the | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
wealth of tomorrow, the G8 of tomorrow, what is the G8 in 20, 25 | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
years, it shall be US, Japan, India, China, Brazil, Russia, Mexico and | :14:53. | :15:00. | |
Indonesia. No single European country shall be part of the G8 in | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
2030 that is in 18 years so the new world order that - there needs to | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
be an integrated Europe with full power with a good internal market, | :15:10. | :15:17. | |
I agree, not split into two parts. Some argue with a single currency... | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
Its I'm sorry but time is precious. Whichever vision of Europe will | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
take hold in the European Union, who exactly will decide? There is a | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
lot has been spoken about recently about a democracy deep sit in the | :15:31. | :15:38. | |
EU. Do you believe it exists? depends what you mean by Democratic | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
deficit. It is a phrase often used but nobody ever gives me the answer. | :15:42. | :15:49. | |
It boils down to the fact what do you perceive the European Union to | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
be. Is it a country called Europe or a cooperative owned by and | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
worked on behalf of and for 27 independent soof yin states any see | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
it as the latter and toy not have a problem. We have a democratically | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
eelectricityed council and the Democraticly elected Parliament | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
which there is to hold the commission together and clearly | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
after the Lisbon Treaty we are not doing that well enough. We need to | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
do more, but we do not have that problem. Exactly the European | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
Parliament, if I could put this to you, it is the only directly oh | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
electricityed European decision- making body. The Lisbon Treaty was | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
supposed to give it more powers but you service the European President | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
Martin Shulz acknowledging "In the last two years as a result trends | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
towards endless series of meeting was heads of state and Government | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
more and more legislative decision have been taken without the | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
European Parliament being consulted". How can you let this | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
happen? We are making huge protests against it. Thin Parliament, every | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
time when I'm intervening I business that issue. I think it is | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
a bad thing what we see the last two years, the development in the | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
direction of an inter-Governmental Europe that means a European | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
Council with the heads of states, Government, deSiding for the hole | :17:07. | :17:13. | |
of. The EU. I think we need more real European Government -- the | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
whole of. Control to buy this European Parliament. We have new | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
powers, the Lisbon Treaty has given full powers to the European | :17:21. | :17:28. | |
Parliament on every toppish of the treaty. Also on in - international | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
teethies have to be adopted by the Parliament. The problem is that | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
people t political leadership for the moment in the nation state | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
certainly in Germany and in France think this they have to govern the | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
European Union and they are not cape in of doing so. Look to the | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
euro crisis. We have at least 20 summits of the euro crisis and | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
every time they produce half measures without real vision for | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
the future. Isn't part of the problem the way the European Union | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
decision making bodies are structured? Too many close order | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
debates at the Council of Ministers t European Parliament, nobody | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
really knows where it is going to vote. The commission against | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
closed-door meetings. Is there not a time issue as well? You mentioned | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
the Lisbon treaty supposed the make a. The EU more depbl catastrophic. | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
It took eight years -- Democratic. All meetings in the European | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
Parliament are open, also committee mightings. Closed meetings are when | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
Chancellor Angela Merkel and Mr Hollande see each other behind | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
closed doors You vo the International Monetary Fund again | :18:33. | :18:40. | |
in a report in July -- you have. Complaining or pointing out the sea | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
dragging going on in the EU. Is that why the European Parliament is | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
cut out? No we are arguing we need a fully fledged change from the | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
Democrat contradict union which means full powers for the European | :18:52. | :18:59. | |
Parliament. It is not long an inter-Governmental body can decide. | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
You have a two-chamber system where the European Parliament is | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
representing Parliament and the second chamber in which nation | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
states are represented. Last thing, you need a real Government, a | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
European Government control by the European Parliament. We are elected | :19:17. | :19:24. | |
directly by the people t British people that elect the different | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
MEPs from there so this democracy exists today in Europe. But it is | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
not fully used. I does exist but so long as the council - there are 27 | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
elected Prime Ministers are the superior body. We feel true power | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
should rest in the nation states. Only then can you get the | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
Democratic reaction to what the people want. Picking up on your | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
earlier point - yes, there is a problem, it is far too slow the | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
react and respond. The reason that is the architecture of the EU is | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
not fit for purpose for the future. It is not solving the problems | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
about to come. A good example is the euro which was always a | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
political project not a fiscal instrument. Hit been a fiscal | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
instrument there would have been rules, processes an disciplines | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
that had to have been followed and no doubt a number of nation was | :20:12. | :20:22. | |
:20:22. | :20:23. | ||
never have been allowed to join the euro had they been in place. Again, | :20:23. | :20:29. | |
if we can return to the people of Europe. It has long been a desired | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
aim by decision-makers to bring Europe closer to the people and yet | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
with each successive EU parliamentary election fewer and | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
fewer people are turning out to vote. You have another election in | :20:43. | :20:49. | |
2014, how will you persuade people their vote is important? | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
European political parties shall present a unique candidate for the | :20:54. | :21:01. | |
presidency of the commission so it is a step towards a direct elected | :21:01. | :21:11. | |
:21:11. | :21:15. | ||
President of the European Commission and European Government. | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
And I'm within favour of a system where the European citizens are | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
financing directly. The EU. I'm always say financing you pay for | :21:24. | :21:34. | |
:21:34. | :21:37. | ||
something then you are interested in something. Did nation states are | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
giving the... That... No it is not the same S if you pay directly a | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
part of your VAT on what you buy directly to the EU you shall be | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
interested in what is happening to you. We have a problem here. The | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
first two points about directly elected President or whatever else | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
is not relevant and is not going to make any difference to the voters. | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
But this is a big issue that the European budget works on a seven- | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
year cycle. We are on a five-year parliamentary electoral cycle and | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
unless and until you aHine the to so you forge a link between | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
democracy and expenditure it is always going to be irrelevant. | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
Firstly, you have to resolve that. Secondly, while I regret that not | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
many people turn out to vote in European elections, typically 30%, | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
but actually that is more than the number of people who turn out for | :22:28. | :22:35. | |
local tort elections in the UK and you have never - local authority | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
releases or indeed in the US. there is less participation than | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
the European Parliament so you do not say that Obama is not there in | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
a legitimate way? Isn't it the responsibility of members of the | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
European part and national politicians to explain to the | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
people of Europe why it count? There is a complaint that all too | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
often politicians use. The EU as a scapegoat for national ills or to | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
tie score cheap points. If I was one of those 25 million people out | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
of work today or one of those young people without a job I would not be | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
the least bit interested in watching politicians throwing | :23:15. | :23:21. | |
bricks at each other. I would want to see people working out solution | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
thanks will address their problems not ours, they are going to do | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
something 3. The economy I'm on the budget committee here in. The EU. | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
Times have changed and the budget must change to reflect it. You | :23:32. | :23:41. | |
cannot go out as you have before. final statement? I do not think the | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
complaints have forwarded the European democracy. It is far more | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
important he takes his responsibility and puts the | :23:48. | :23:52. |