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names before hand. Most of the victims were students. | :00:04. | :00:11. | |
Kenya is a country with big ambitions to be East Africa's | :00:11. | :00:19. | |
powerhouse economy, and, as is dominant regional player. And yet | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
seated problems. Its political culture is disfigured by violence | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
and tribalism, corruption is ingrained and poverty deep-rooted. | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
Today my guest is deputy prime minister and presidential candidate | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
Musalia Mudavadi. Which version of Kenya will prevail as the country | :00:37. | :00:47. | |
:00:47. | :01:03. | ||
prepares for national elections Musalia Mudavadi, welcome to | :01:03. | :01:09. | |
HARDtalk. Thank you very much. must begin with events in Somalia | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
because they have been major developments in the last few days | :01:12. | :01:22. | |
involving Kenyan troops, amphibious people are entirely behind this | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
major commitment Kenya is making in Somalia? They are, absolutely. They | :01:29. | :01:36. | |
are fully behind the Kenyan defence unstable Somalia for a very long | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
time. What has been happening in the region is that we have been | :01:42. | :01:52. | |
starting to see repercussions in movemen | :01:52. | :02:02. | |
:02:02. | :02:17. | ||
militant Islamist force? Yes. They Kenya. D not think that there is a | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
greater risk Al-Shabab will try to bring the violence to Kenyans | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
that e is that risk but this is a situation | :02:24. | :02:31. | |
we do not want terrorists to become the dominant force and run affairs | :02:31. | :02:38. | |
in the region. We have seen grenade attacks on churches and other | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
public places, an attack on a Sunday school which left at least | :02:42. | :02:50. | |
one child dead. I am wondering if this violence spreads inside your | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
country, will people ask whether it was wise for the government to | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
commit to such a major intervention beyond the border? I think we have | :03:01. | :03:09. | |
to appreciate that Kenya is not there alone. Kinnear is there with | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
other African Union troops. The international community is behind | :03:14. | :03:21. | |
this intervention. But now it seems Kenya's role is dominant. You | :03:21. | :03:31. | |
:03:31. | :03:31. | ||
probably remember the words of Colin Powell. He said, if you go in, | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
there is this the last of the - you break it, you own it. If you now | :03:36. | :03:44. | |
have thousands of troops inside Somalia, and you have killed | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
civilians, you will now have to convince some mullions that Kenya | :03:47. | :03:57. | |
is a force for good. That means the commitment could go on and on. | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
But I would like to say that Kenya's intervention was very well | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
measured. Kinnear has made a difference by being part of the | :04:06. | :04:13. | |
Amazon troops. Since they came in, there has been significant success | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
in dealing with Al-Shabab. If you look at what has happened in | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
Somalia, they just went through an election, they have a new President. | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
This was not possible previously. For them to be able to conduct an | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
election were they now have a parliament that is beginning to | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
function. But Al-Shabab has not gone away. It is likely they will | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
mount an insurgency campaign now from the bush, rather than from the | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
towns. That could actually be more damaging for your troops and | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
civilians in the country. There is that risk but I think it would be | :04:50. | :05:00. | |
worse if we were to lay back and let things go. Somalia has not | :05:00. | :05:10. | |
:05:10. | :05:13. | ||
received sufficient international attention. Just to be clear, as you | :05:13. | :05:23. | |
:05:23. | :05:26. | ||
look at Somalia today, Kenya's military and economic commitment is | :05:26. | :05:34. | |
indefinite? It is. We would like the international community to play | :05:34. | :05:42. | |
a more aggressive role. We have seen positive support through | :05:42. | :05:50. | |
United Nations resolutions and Amazon troops. I believe that if we | :05:50. | :05:59. | |
want to find a lasting solution, we should make sure that international | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
attention remains focused on Somalia. A final thought about | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
Somalia. I have talked about the danger that Al-Shabaab might try to | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
bring violence to your own country and people. It is not just about | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
their operatives trying to cross the border, it is also about | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
tensions within Kenyan society itself. You have hundreds of | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
thousands of Somali refugees who are now resident in your country. | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
You also have a significant Muslim population, some of whom appear to | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
be increasingly radicalised. They may become more so as a result of | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
what they see your troops doing in Somalia. I hope we do not get to | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
that extreme position. We have seen some unfortunate incidents, but let | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
me say the Kenyan people are very resilient. By and la | :06:52. | :07:00. | |
confidently say that the Muslims in Kenya are very clear that this is | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
not about a religious battle. We have seen those attempts to tie it | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
to a religious conflict. But Kenyon was once a very clear that this | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
issue is not about religion. It is about terrorism. You must be aware | :07:17. | :07:25. | |
of the tensions in cities like Mombasa. Probably the most active | :07:25. | :07:34. | |
place for Islamist preachers in your country. We have always who | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
say that "Che ha is gaining credence among the youth in the | :07:38. | :07:48. | |
:07:48. | :07:49. | ||
city." it would be very unfortunate. Our security agencies are very | :07:49. | :07:56. | |
clear and firm making sure we do not get to that level. It should | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
not be seen as a religious battles. I'm confident that ultimately, the | :08:02. | :08:12. | |
:08:12. | :08:14. | ||
region will prevail. Any attempts to try and try this on a religious | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
basis have been met by a lot of restrained by Christians and | :08:18. | :08:25. | |
Muslims. People outside your country might be more convinced | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
that -- that reason will prevail would not that internal tensions | :08:29. | :08:35. | |
are rising across Kenya, leaving aside the issue of Somalia and was | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
on feeling inside your country. Generally, there is a feeling that | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
over the last year, we have seen a significant rise in into communal | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
tension and violence. Your government appears incapable of | :08:52. | :09:00. | |
calming things down. That is not true. What has happened in Kenya is | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
very significant from a positive angle. I'm not just saying that | :09:06. | :09:12. | |
because I am a Kenyan. I want to point out that Kenya has | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
successfully brought in a constitution. Kinnear is preparing | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
for a general election. We had not seen these extreme national | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
tensions. As we have. What about the fact mass graves have been | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
discovered in villages have been destroyed and we have seen tribal | :09:30. | :09:37. | |
disputes escalate into massacres? Those unfortunate incidents but | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
they're not running across the entire country. Whatever happened | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
was quickly quelled. We had villages destroyed, women and | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
children murdered. We have had allegations that local politicians | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
and police are they incited the violence or stood by and let it | :09:55. | :10:04. | |
happen. Equally, the authorities were able to investigate. Some of | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
the people who could have been behind this were -- are likely to | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
face charges. Our intervention has been quite formidable and fairly | :10:12. | :10:21. | |
tidy. Apart from what has happened, there were no other serious cases | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
of conflict. Other incidences over the last few months, we have had | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
senior politicians and members of the government it -- accused of | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
inciting into communal violence. It seems there is a political culture | :10:35. | :10:42. | |
at work in a country which allows politicians to indulge in this sort | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
of tribal infighting. That is the culture that is being eliminated | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
now. It is not being eliminated in due respect. A Human Rights Watch | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
recent report said that for decades, Kenyan police have failed to | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
investigate politicians implicated in such violence. Politicians are | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
facing such charges today. there are many others indulging in | :11:09. | :11:16. | |
the same activity. We have to go by the rule of law. Those who have | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
been found with sufficient evidence have been taken to court. That | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
includes government ministers. Colleagues of yours are prepared to | :11:25. | :11:34. | |
indulge in this sort of tension, why is that? These are essentially | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
people who do not have a serious agenda. I think when we have an | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
independent director of Public Prosecutions charging them, it will | :11:44. | :11:52. | |
be a deterrent against anyone else who wants to do the same thing. I | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
think it is positive that a messages being sent to Kenya's | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
political society, that they can't continue in the traditional way. | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
What sort of message d think it sense that two of the most senior | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
politicians in your country now face trial before the International | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
Criminal Court in The Hague, facing serious charges of involvement in | :12:14. | :12:21. | |
crimes against humanity? It is unfortunate. The issue of | :12:21. | :12:31. | |
:12:31. | :12:35. | ||
politicians in Kenya facing such a trial, there is national guilt. If | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
we were to go back into be election process of 2007, there is a sense | :12:41. | :12:47. | |
of national guilt. We went wrong as a nation. The International | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
Criminal Court clearly believes that Kenya's own judicial system is | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
not capable of delivering justice for what happened after that | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
election. That was then. I can tell you now that under the new | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
constitution, there is a major injure -- adjustment taking place. | :13:07. | :13:14. | |
We have a new chief justice. Nine of the judges have not been able to | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
go through the vetting process. We are seeing major reforms in Kenya's | :13:19. | :13:27. | |
judiciary. I can tell you confidently that Kenya's judicial | :13:28. | :13:36. | |
system is beginning to see a time for the better. I can tell you | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
confidently that one of the senior politicians I am referring to | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
facing these charges at The Hague now seems to command more than 20% | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
support in polls looking forward to the presidential election. He | :13:51. | :13:59. | |
seemed to get around 8%. What does it say that a man like him, facing | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
very serious charges, seems to be significantly popular with the | :14:02. | :14:09. | |
people of your country? This is the interesting thing about Kenya's | :14:09. | :14:16. | |
political system and society. The popularity issue is something else. | :14:16. | :14:25. | |
This will be determined by the voters. The Kenyans are very clear | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
that we are not going to progress into a violent situation as we get | :14:31. | :14:41. | |
:14:41. | :14:43. | ||
to the election. The Kenyan people want the international community to | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
appreciate the positive changes that have taken in the judicial | :14:46. | :14:56. | |
:14:56. | :15:07. | ||
He denies all the allegations he faces in the Hague was. You | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
represent a political establishment the people no longer find credible. | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
Do you agree with that? I do not agree. The Kenyan people have a | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
chance, come March next year, to make the change that desire. You do | :15:21. | :15:31. | |
not really represent change. It is difficult to see what you represent. | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
You are a fee is credit of the current President. He's people who | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
used to be your friends describe you as a free Leader whose | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
credibility is non-existent and represents everything that is wrong | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
with the economic life of the country. You are all scrapping for | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
power without an ounce of ideological conviction between you. | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
I am very different. I speak for myself. I do not speak for the | :15:59. | :16:07. | |
other candidates. Kenya is at the brink of a major transition. We | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
have a new constitution. We have a President who would not be on the | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
ballot. Kenyans have an opportunity to make a choice. I offer myself | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
forward to the people of Kenya. I am somebody who is not poor rising. | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
I am a to implement the new constitution. I am confident that I | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
will be elected on that basis. it is question of the potential | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
election, there are many candidates with their names put forward. One | :16:38. | :16:48. | |
:16:48. | :16:49. | ||
of them is you. If it does politicians pull proceed with their | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
trial at the Hague, would be wise for a different opera -- opposition | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
candidates to come up with one key presidential candidate they could | :16:58. | :17:06. | |
unite around and challenge? Do you believe that should happen. I think | :17:06. | :17:15. | |
Kenyans... The basis of any coalition from the party that I | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
represent, we are not coming together simply to defeat somebody | :17:19. | :17:29. | |
:17:29. | :17:30. | ||
else. We have to be clear first. If you are getting into a partnership | :17:30. | :17:38. | |
with anybody, what do they think of the economy? What are their views | :17:38. | :17:48. | |
on violence and other policies? That should be the basis. So no | :17:48. | :17:58. | |
:17:58. | :17:58. | ||
deals? No deals with any other potential candidates to pull you | :17:58. | :18:07. | |
re- sources in your battle against the President? We are or competent. | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
We would like everyone to have the opportunity. I am focused that I | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
must win the hearts of the Kenyan people. The talk about the economy. | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
Polling evidence tells me that when Kenyans were asked what the most | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
important issues are that is facing the country, they put down | :18:27. | :18:34. | |
employment. No. Today. Corruption. And the feeling that politics is | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
corroded by corruption. Can you explain to me, as a member of the | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
government in a long-standing MP, why the parliament has just voted | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
through of a massive revamp of the parliament building itself which | :18:50. | :18:57. | |
involved the spending, this is almost unbelievable, the spending | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
of $300,000 of hi-tech new shares with computers onboard for every | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
parliamentarian. 350 or so of these shares. It will cost a lot of money. | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
A common to many Kenyans, politicians are simply feeding at | :19:12. | :19:20. | |
the trough. I don't think that is exactly accurate. We have to look | :19:20. | :19:28. | |
at it from a different perspective. The parliament has been expanded to | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
accommodate more parliamentarians based on what is going to happen in | :19:33. | :19:43. | |
:19:43. | :19:44. | ||
the new constitution. These materials are local. I am sorry. | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
You cannot tell me that local materials and up to chairs in the | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
Upul Tharanga costing $300,000. One of your colleagues says, it is | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
completely ridiculous that MPs would sit on seat by any standards | :19:59. | :20:09. | |
could put up a small house for someone in Kenya. This is the | :20:09. | :20:17. | |
Kenyan National Assembly. They have put it up. It may reflect a | :20:17. | :20:27. | |
situation where a looks bad. It is bad. This is a country that | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
actually is going through an enormous economic struggle and MPs | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
of Fame's round the world for being the best paid in the entire world. | :20:35. | :20:43. | |
Their overall package including expenses comes over $150,000 a year | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
US. You as a minister gets more than that. It is unacceptable for | :20:48. | :20:55. | |
most Kenyans the repetitions in your country behave. Politicians | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
will not be a board determined this anymore. We have gone beyond that. | :21:00. | :21:10. | |
:21:10. | :21:11. | ||
We have reached a stage where Kenya and has a commission. It will | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
harmonise all aspects of a packagers, the earnings of public | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
officers. This includes Members of Parliament. The whole notion that | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
Members of Parliament are setting up packages for themselves is gone. | :21:26. | :21:34. | |
What we see, in this lady's bag rapport, is that Kenya's economy is | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
underperforming in East Africa. If look across the region, Kenya has | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
more import restrictions than many neighbouring countries. You have a | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
growth of 5% but basic given the potential it should be higher. It | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
should match the other fast-growing countries but you're not doing it. | :21:55. | :22:01. | |
There is something wrong there. I do not think we have the highest | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
import restrictions. Not the high as. But it is not free in the way | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
the World Bank would like to see if. I think Kenya is the most liberal | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
of the economies in the region. I can talk comfortably above this. I | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
said as the Minister of Finance. And er in terms of opening up for | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
trade and all aspects of import tariffs, Kenya is more liberal than | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
other countries in the region. that is the case and USAir in Port | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
-- confident, why are semi people worried that given the discovery of | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
oil in Kenya and your president talking about the major | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
breakthrough in the presents for the economy, why as any people | :22:43. | :22:52. | |
worried that that resource bonus that you now have could be wasted? | :22:52. | :23:02. | |
:23:02. | :23:05. | ||
Those operas and us. -- are plasmas. We think it will be utilised | :23:05. | :23:15. | |
:23:15. | :23:15. | ||
positively for the Kenyan people. Countries like Norway who have good | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
policies about the utilisation of the natural resources. And there | :23:19. | :23:27. | |
are other countries that have not done so well. They tend to be wet | :23:27. | :23:34. | |
corruption -- where corruption is not an epidemic. There is a | :23:34. | :23:43. | |
positive aspect here. We were not strike this oil immediately. I can | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
tell you very confidently that we ALP working on policy positions | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
that will make sure any natural resources that are discovered in | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
Kenya will be for the good of the country and were not just benefit a | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
few people. This is something we are working on. The parliament is | :24:01. | :24:08. | |
working to legislate some of these issues. With the VAT, we were said | :24:09. | :24:15. |