Musalia Mudavadi - Deputy Prime Minister of Kenya HARDtalk


Musalia Mudavadi - Deputy Prime Minister of Kenya

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names before hand. Most of the victims were students.

:00:04.:00:11.

Kenya is a country with big ambitions to be East Africa's

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powerhouse economy, and, as is dominant regional player. And yet

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seated problems. Its political culture is disfigured by violence

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and tribalism, corruption is ingrained and poverty deep-rooted.

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Today my guest is deputy prime minister and presidential candidate

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Musalia Mudavadi. Which version of Kenya will prevail as the country

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:00:47.:01:03.

prepares for national elections Musalia Mudavadi, welcome to

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HARDtalk. Thank you very much. must begin with events in Somalia

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because they have been major developments in the last few days

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involving Kenyan troops, amphibious people are entirely behind this

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major commitment Kenya is making in Somalia? They are, absolutely. They

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are fully behind the Kenyan defence unstable Somalia for a very long

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time. What has been happening in the region is that we have been

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starting to see repercussions in movemen

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:02:02.:02:17.

militant Islamist force? Yes. They Kenya. D not think that there is a

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greater risk Al-Shabab will try to bring the violence to Kenyans

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that e is that risk but this is a situation

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we do not want terrorists to become the dominant force and run affairs

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in the region. We have seen grenade attacks on churches and other

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public places, an attack on a Sunday school which left at least

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one child dead. I am wondering if this violence spreads inside your

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country, will people ask whether it was wise for the government to

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commit to such a major intervention beyond the border? I think we have

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to appreciate that Kenya is not there alone. Kinnear is there with

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other African Union troops. The international community is behind

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this intervention. But now it seems Kenya's role is dominant. You

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probably remember the words of Colin Powell. He said, if you go in,

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there is this the last of the - you break it, you own it. If you now

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have thousands of troops inside Somalia, and you have killed

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civilians, you will now have to convince some mullions that Kenya

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is a force for good. That means the commitment could go on and on.

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But I would like to say that Kenya's intervention was very well

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measured. Kinnear has made a difference by being part of the

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Amazon troops. Since they came in, there has been significant success

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in dealing with Al-Shabab. If you look at what has happened in

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Somalia, they just went through an election, they have a new President.

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This was not possible previously. For them to be able to conduct an

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election were they now have a parliament that is beginning to

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function. But Al-Shabab has not gone away. It is likely they will

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mount an insurgency campaign now from the bush, rather than from the

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towns. That could actually be more damaging for your troops and

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civilians in the country. There is that risk but I think it would be

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worse if we were to lay back and let things go. Somalia has not

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received sufficient international attention. Just to be clear, as you

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look at Somalia today, Kenya's military and economic commitment is

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indefinite? It is. We would like the international community to play

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a more aggressive role. We have seen positive support through

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United Nations resolutions and Amazon troops. I believe that if we

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want to find a lasting solution, we should make sure that international

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attention remains focused on Somalia. A final thought about

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Somalia. I have talked about the danger that Al-Shabaab might try to

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bring violence to your own country and people. It is not just about

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their operatives trying to cross the border, it is also about

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tensions within Kenyan society itself. You have hundreds of

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thousands of Somali refugees who are now resident in your country.

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You also have a significant Muslim population, some of whom appear to

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be increasingly radicalised. They may become more so as a result of

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what they see your troops doing in Somalia. I hope we do not get to

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that extreme position. We have seen some unfortunate incidents, but let

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me say the Kenyan people are very resilient. By and la

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confidently say that the Muslims in Kenya are very clear that this is

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not about a religious battle. We have seen those attempts to tie it

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to a religious conflict. But Kenyon was once a very clear that this

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issue is not about religion. It is about terrorism. You must be aware

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of the tensions in cities like Mombasa. Probably the most active

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place for Islamist preachers in your country. We have always who

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say that "Che ha is gaining credence among the youth in the

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city." it would be very unfortunate. Our security agencies are very

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clear and firm making sure we do not get to that level. It should

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not be seen as a religious battles. I'm confident that ultimately, the

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region will prevail. Any attempts to try and try this on a religious

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basis have been met by a lot of restrained by Christians and

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Muslims. People outside your country might be more convinced

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that -- that reason will prevail would not that internal tensions

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are rising across Kenya, leaving aside the issue of Somalia and was

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on feeling inside your country. Generally, there is a feeling that

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over the last year, we have seen a significant rise in into communal

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tension and violence. Your government appears incapable of

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calming things down. That is not true. What has happened in Kenya is

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very significant from a positive angle. I'm not just saying that

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because I am a Kenyan. I want to point out that Kenya has

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successfully brought in a constitution. Kinnear is preparing

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for a general election. We had not seen these extreme national

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tensions. As we have. What about the fact mass graves have been

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discovered in villages have been destroyed and we have seen tribal

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disputes escalate into massacres? Those unfortunate incidents but

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they're not running across the entire country. Whatever happened

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was quickly quelled. We had villages destroyed, women and

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children murdered. We have had allegations that local politicians

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and police are they incited the violence or stood by and let it

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happen. Equally, the authorities were able to investigate. Some of

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the people who could have been behind this were -- are likely to

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face charges. Our intervention has been quite formidable and fairly

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tidy. Apart from what has happened, there were no other serious cases

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of conflict. Other incidences over the last few months, we have had

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senior politicians and members of the government it -- accused of

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inciting into communal violence. It seems there is a political culture

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at work in a country which allows politicians to indulge in this sort

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of tribal infighting. That is the culture that is being eliminated

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now. It is not being eliminated in due respect. A Human Rights Watch

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recent report said that for decades, Kenyan police have failed to

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investigate politicians implicated in such violence. Politicians are

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facing such charges today. there are many others indulging in

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the same activity. We have to go by the rule of law. Those who have

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been found with sufficient evidence have been taken to court. That

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includes government ministers. Colleagues of yours are prepared to

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indulge in this sort of tension, why is that? These are essentially

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people who do not have a serious agenda. I think when we have an

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independent director of Public Prosecutions charging them, it will

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be a deterrent against anyone else who wants to do the same thing. I

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think it is positive that a messages being sent to Kenya's

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political society, that they can't continue in the traditional way.

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What sort of message d think it sense that two of the most senior

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politicians in your country now face trial before the International

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Criminal Court in The Hague, facing serious charges of involvement in

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crimes against humanity? It is unfortunate. The issue of

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politicians in Kenya facing such a trial, there is national guilt. If

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we were to go back into be election process of 2007, there is a sense

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of national guilt. We went wrong as a nation. The International

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Criminal Court clearly believes that Kenya's own judicial system is

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not capable of delivering justice for what happened after that

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election. That was then. I can tell you now that under the new

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constitution, there is a major injure -- adjustment taking place.

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We have a new chief justice. Nine of the judges have not been able to

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go through the vetting process. We are seeing major reforms in Kenya's

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judiciary. I can tell you confidently that Kenya's judicial

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system is beginning to see a time for the better. I can tell you

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confidently that one of the senior politicians I am referring to

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facing these charges at The Hague now seems to command more than 20%

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support in polls looking forward to the presidential election. He

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seemed to get around 8%. What does it say that a man like him, facing

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very serious charges, seems to be significantly popular with the

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people of your country? This is the interesting thing about Kenya's

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political system and society. The popularity issue is something else.

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This will be determined by the voters. The Kenyans are very clear

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that we are not going to progress into a violent situation as we get

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to the election. The Kenyan people want the international community to

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appreciate the positive changes that have taken in the judicial

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He denies all the allegations he faces in the Hague was. You

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represent a political establishment the people no longer find credible.

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Do you agree with that? I do not agree. The Kenyan people have a

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chance, come March next year, to make the change that desire. You do

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not really represent change. It is difficult to see what you represent.

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You are a fee is credit of the current President. He's people who

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used to be your friends describe you as a free Leader whose

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credibility is non-existent and represents everything that is wrong

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with the economic life of the country. You are all scrapping for

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power without an ounce of ideological conviction between you.

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I am very different. I speak for myself. I do not speak for the

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other candidates. Kenya is at the brink of a major transition. We

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have a new constitution. We have a President who would not be on the

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ballot. Kenyans have an opportunity to make a choice. I offer myself

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forward to the people of Kenya. I am somebody who is not poor rising.

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I am a to implement the new constitution. I am confident that I

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will be elected on that basis. it is question of the potential

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election, there are many candidates with their names put forward. One

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of them is you. If it does politicians pull proceed with their

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trial at the Hague, would be wise for a different opera -- opposition

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candidates to come up with one key presidential candidate they could

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unite around and challenge? Do you believe that should happen. I think

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Kenyans... The basis of any coalition from the party that I

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represent, we are not coming together simply to defeat somebody

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else. We have to be clear first. If you are getting into a partnership

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with anybody, what do they think of the economy? What are their views

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on violence and other policies? That should be the basis. So no

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:17:58.:17:58.

deals? No deals with any other potential candidates to pull you

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re- sources in your battle against the President? We are or competent.

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We would like everyone to have the opportunity. I am focused that I

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must win the hearts of the Kenyan people. The talk about the economy.

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Polling evidence tells me that when Kenyans were asked what the most

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important issues are that is facing the country, they put down

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employment. No. Today. Corruption. And the feeling that politics is

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corroded by corruption. Can you explain to me, as a member of the

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government in a long-standing MP, why the parliament has just voted

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through of a massive revamp of the parliament building itself which

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involved the spending, this is almost unbelievable, the spending

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of $300,000 of hi-tech new shares with computers onboard for every

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parliamentarian. 350 or so of these shares. It will cost a lot of money.

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A common to many Kenyans, politicians are simply feeding at

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the trough. I don't think that is exactly accurate. We have to look

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at it from a different perspective. The parliament has been expanded to

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accommodate more parliamentarians based on what is going to happen in

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:19:43.:19:44.

the new constitution. These materials are local. I am sorry.

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You cannot tell me that local materials and up to chairs in the

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Upul Tharanga costing $300,000. One of your colleagues says, it is

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completely ridiculous that MPs would sit on seat by any standards

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could put up a small house for someone in Kenya. This is the

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Kenyan National Assembly. They have put it up. It may reflect a

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situation where a looks bad. It is bad. This is a country that

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actually is going through an enormous economic struggle and MPs

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of Fame's round the world for being the best paid in the entire world.

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Their overall package including expenses comes over $150,000 a year

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US. You as a minister gets more than that. It is unacceptable for

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most Kenyans the repetitions in your country behave. Politicians

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will not be a board determined this anymore. We have gone beyond that.

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We have reached a stage where Kenya and has a commission. It will

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harmonise all aspects of a packagers, the earnings of public

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officers. This includes Members of Parliament. The whole notion that

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Members of Parliament are setting up packages for themselves is gone.

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What we see, in this lady's bag rapport, is that Kenya's economy is

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underperforming in East Africa. If look across the region, Kenya has

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more import restrictions than many neighbouring countries. You have a

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growth of 5% but basic given the potential it should be higher. It

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should match the other fast-growing countries but you're not doing it.

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There is something wrong there. I do not think we have the highest

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import restrictions. Not the high as. But it is not free in the way

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the World Bank would like to see if. I think Kenya is the most liberal

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of the economies in the region. I can talk comfortably above this. I

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said as the Minister of Finance. And er in terms of opening up for

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trade and all aspects of import tariffs, Kenya is more liberal than

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other countries in the region. that is the case and USAir in Port

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-- confident, why are semi people worried that given the discovery of

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oil in Kenya and your president talking about the major

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breakthrough in the presents for the economy, why as any people

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worried that that resource bonus that you now have could be wasted?

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Those operas and us. -- are plasmas. We think it will be utilised

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positively for the Kenyan people. Countries like Norway who have good

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policies about the utilisation of the natural resources. And there

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are other countries that have not done so well. They tend to be wet

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corruption -- where corruption is not an epidemic. There is a

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positive aspect here. We were not strike this oil immediately. I can

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tell you very confidently that we ALP working on policy positions

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that will make sure any natural resources that are discovered in

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Kenya will be for the good of the country and were not just benefit a

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few people. This is something we are working on. The parliament is

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working to legislate some of these issues. With the VAT, we were said

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