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leadership group. Those are the latest headlines. Now on BBC News, | :00:04. | :00:14. | |
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The European Union won the Nobel Peace Prize for fostering unity in | :00:15. | :00:22. | |
Europe. Ironically the award was made during the current EU | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
presidency of its only divided member, Cyprus. Since 1974 it has | :00:27. | :00:33. | |
been partitioned between the Turkish North and the South. Cyprus | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
is also presiding over the biggest crisis in the EU's history, | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
financial meltdown triggered by indebted nations and Cyprus itself. | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
My guest today on HARDtalk is Andreas Mavroyiannis, a | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
distinguished career diplomat who is currently deputy minister for | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
European affairs for Cyprus. Does he believe the peace prize is a | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
shop in the arm for the EU which will help boost confidence and | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
bring vital momentum to find a blueprint for recovery? -- shot in | :01:04. | :01:14. | |
:01:14. | :01:32. | ||
Andreas Mavroyiannis, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. The Nobel | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
peace prize given to the European Union for fostering unity and | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
stability, but that is a backward looking thing, don't you think? | :01:41. | :01:48. | |
I think it was well deserved. The European project is the most | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
formidable piece project in the world over the last 50 years. A | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
very successful one. It has replaced Morse and bullets with | :01:58. | :02:05. | |
words. Today we have a European Union. -- walls. It is a reminder | :02:05. | :02:11. | |
that what we are doing in Europe is not just meeting and greeting, it | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
is a political project. Are you really suggesting that any body | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
really thinks France and Germany could ever be at war again? If it | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
were not for the European project I would not exclude it. But the | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
project is so successful that it is not imaginable any more. So this is | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
a big success and therefore I'm very happy that the union was | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
recognised as such, and the Nobel prize is a reminder to everybody | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
that what we are doing here is a political project. E is the irony | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
not lost on you, the fact that Cyprus presides over the European | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
Union as current President, the rotating presidency, when the award | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
was made, but you are the only divided member. That really is | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
ironic, isn't it? No, I don't agree with you. It is ironic exclamation | :03:03. | :03:11. | |
mark I don't think it is ironic. shows the dynamic of the process. I | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
believe the individuals in Cyprus will not be able to survive the | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
further progress of the European project. Therefore I believe that | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
this is a boost for unity, it is a boost for solving problems. We did | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
not manage to solve the Cyprus problem so long. You have even gone | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
backwards, that is an understatement. Let me remind you | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
what you said in July when Cyprus, the presidency, you said that it | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
provides a strong message for Cyprus, that if we can meet | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
together as half a billion Europeans, isn't it a complete | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
anachronism to think we cannot live with our Turkish compatriots? | :03:49. | :03:57. | |
Absolutely. Yes, but 840,000 Greek Cypriots and about 300,000 Turkish | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
Cypriots, not all of them Turkish Cypriots, some settlers from | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
mainland Turkey. But the fact of the matter is you can't. Unity is | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
something that is totally eluding you. So far. But we have no other | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
choice and we don't lose hope. We are going to continue working hard | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
in order to Unite the country. Because there is this fundamental | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
philosophical question you mentioned, how can we in this world | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
today be able to be with half a billion of our fellow Europeans | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
when we cannot be with our fellow compatriots? This is anachronistic. | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
The Greek Cypriot people are the ones who did not vote for unity in | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
2004, the Turkish part of the island said yes, fine. If you look | :04:47. | :04:55. | |
at the latest polls, 55 % of Greek Cypriots say no, they think they | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
are better off separate. First in 2004 there was a referendum, which | :05:01. | :05:08. | |
was rejected by the Greek Cypriots because they felt that the basic | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
requirements for resettlement were not met and it was a bad settlement | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
for them. We need to respect the decision of the people. If the only | :05:18. | :05:25. | |
answer you accept is yes, why do you ask the question? But you still | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
don't have the people on board. Wait. They rejected a particular | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
plan, they have not rejected the idea. Now what is happening in | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
particular with the younger generation, they have a longing for | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
a normal society. So they are not ready to Pavey for the spoils of | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
the past -- to pay. We want a united country and you will see the | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
majority, the overwhelming majority, both of Greek Cypriot and Turkish | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
Cypriots want the unification of the country. You have missed the | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
opportunity, when the President came to power in 2008 he said his | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
priority was to work for unity. He had a potential partner then with | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
the Turkish Cypriot leader who also entered into negotiations with him. | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
Now in 2010, when you have a new leader in the Turkish part of the | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
island, he is pro independence. You don't even have a negotiating | :06:22. | :06:31. | |
partner any more? This is true. It is true that he is not a person who | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
works for unification and this is a problem. But we will not give up | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
because we don't believe that there's any alternative to finding | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
a negotiated settlement to unify the island. Now don't forget, today, | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
even with the division, the Turkish Cypriots are citizens of the | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
Republic of Cyprus, they have a passport of Cyprus, they are | :06:54. | :07:01. | |
European citizens who can go around and benefit in Europe individually. | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
They see themselves as living in a different country. It is only the | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
northern Turkish Republic of Cyprus recognised by mainland Turkey... | :07:12. | :07:19. | |
is not a country from the legal point of view, though. But Turkey | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
recognises it. It is in a de facto situation, they have troops | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
occupying the land. But you cannot blame the individual Turkish | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
Cypriots for what has happened. But at the end of the day I believe | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
that we need to work more with them and make sure that we are going to | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
manage to find a way to unify the country. You're a very influential | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
man in Cyprus. Am I? I think you are. You have worked as the | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
ambassador at the United Nations for Cyprus and also as ambassador | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
at the European Union, curate Vice- President now on European affairs. | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
-- you would eyes the President. But you said you are not going to | :08:00. | :08:10. | |
:08:10. | :08:18. | ||
contest elections in 20 the President. Jong -- in 2014 -- your | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
advice. He is very pessimistic. He knows in the coming months there's | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
no chance because in order to change the situation we need to | :08:28. | :08:35. | |
change the Turkish policy. We don't see this coming. You can talk with | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
him. He was really in favour of reunification and we were very | :08:39. | :08:47. | |
happy with the fact that he was the leader. But the real problem is | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
Turkey and Turkey does not feel at this juncture, but I hope things | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
will change, that they have any reason or any incentive to do | :08:55. | :09:02. | |
anything. The European Union values Turkey tremendously, a very key | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
allied if you see what is going on in Syria, and one of Nato's big | :09:06. | :09:12. | |
players, they are always going to side with Turkey much more than | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
they are going to listen to you. Isn't that the case? Not really. We | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
are a member of the European Union and there is European solidarity. | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
But having said that Turkey is a very important strategic partner | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
for many big countries in the European Union. Turkey is also a | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
country who is a candidate to join the European Union. As far as we | :09:37. | :09:44. | |
are concerned we have invested in the accession process in order to | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
change the dynamics and find a settlement. It has not worked so | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
far, we hope it will work in the future. Of the key sticking points | :09:53. | :10:00. | |
broadly speaking, property rights, territorial adjustments among other | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
things. And also the government is a big issue. In a paragraph what | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
are the key obstacles? The key obstacles, there's the fact that | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
Turkey wants to keep control of Cyprus. So the system of security | :10:14. | :10:23. | |
and guarantees that existed since 1960, and which was used as a free- | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
kick for the invasion. They want to keep that. Second is the system of | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
government. It is important for us to have a unified country being | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
able to speak with one voice, at least in the European Union. What | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
they promote is a kind of concealed division, a kind of confederation, | :10:43. | :10:50. | |
that cannot work. Then there is the territorial issue, property rights, | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
human rights. There has been a population shift with Greek | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
Cypriots? This is a nice way to put it because there was first the | :11:01. | :11:11. | |
Cypriot population. The oil and gas reserves of off the shore of Cyprus, | :11:11. | :11:21. | |
:11:21. | :11:21. | ||
how much did that help a settlement in the future? -- could at help. | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
What you are saying is rational and reasonable. -- Could that help. But | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
so are we see the opposite. We see Turkey flattening Cyprus because we | :11:31. | :11:40. | |
are exploring our resources in our exclusive economic zone. What is | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
happening is that for Turkey, if it was possible to sink Cyprus, they | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
would have done so. We provide an alternative access to the Middle | :11:53. | :12:01. | |
East. They cannot monopolise access. Second, because we can't provide an | :12:01. | :12:09. | |
alternative corridor to Europe for oil and gas. And because they would | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
have liked Cyprus not to exist in order to divide the Mediterranean | :12:14. | :12:22. | |
between Turkey and Egypt. Cyprus does exist, obviously. I hope that | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
they will realise that instead of having this approach, it would have | :12:26. | :12:34. | |
been better to reverse this vicious circle and create a new solution, | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
working together, co-operating on this important issue and then this | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
would have been a good step for finding a settlement. But it could | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
be a source of tensions, Cyprus is just going ahead and exploring and | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
you say that you could be exporting by 2017. It might cause tensions. | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
But we are acting in for conformity with the international law and the | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
UN conventions -- full. And the international community as a whole, | :13:03. | :13:13. | |
the Security Council and all the big powers, it is rare to say that | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
what the Cyprus government is doing is within their own rights. | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
final point, you have still got the Green Line dividing the island, you | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
have got the longest serving UN mission still there. There's no | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
possibility of conflict is there? Always there's a possibility of | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
conflict. But I think there's much more maturity now and we will try | :13:35. | :13:42. | |
the if you like to avoid possible sources of tension. But the best | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
way to avoid tensions his negotiations. And also working for | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
a settlement. -- is negotiations. The Nobel Prize given on your watch, | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
when you are in charge of the presidency, is ironic when we have | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
discussed you have got these divisions and a clear lack of unity | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
and the potential for reunification. In addition to the division, Cyprus | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
is staring financial disaster in the face because obviously the | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
Greek part of Cyprus is very close to mainland Greece, and very | :14:14. | :14:21. | |
heavily exposed to the Greek debt crisis. How much do you need? EUR10 | :14:21. | :14:31. | |
:14:31. | :14:34. | ||
I am not sure. What happened is that everybody in Europe suffered | :14:34. | :14:43. | |
from the economic crisis. But then, do this was added the exposure of | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
our banks to the bonds problem and the market in general. This made | :14:48. | :14:55. | |
the situation not manageable for Cyprus. This is why we asked to be | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
under other management. We hope now that we will manage in the coming | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
days and weeks to get an agreement and an understanding. Only then | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
will we know the exact amount. that figure is about right, | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
roughly? A suppose for the size of the country, it should not be very | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
far from that. A few GDP is 18.5 billion euros and you want 18 euros, | :15:20. | :15:29. | |
that is a lot. But bear in mind that the haircut on Greek bonds | :15:29. | :15:36. | |
coursed Cyprus banks more than 4.5 billion. -- 18 billion euros of. | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
But the fact of the matter is, Cyprus massively over invested in | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
Greek bonds, especially as the Greek economy was crashing. | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
Interest rates became more tempting. So it is actually through Cyprus' | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
own folly that you find yourself in this position? Yes. You accept | :15:57. | :16:04. | |
that? Because you finance minister has a slightly different take on it. | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
She says that Greece is the root of the problem. She says the situation | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
of Cyprus would have been under control if it was not full Greece | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
but that seems like they are trying to play the blame game close enough | :16:18. | :16:28. | |
:16:28. | :16:28. | ||
no. Nobody forced the Supre it -- cypress' banks to buy Greek bonds. | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
They had operations in Greece and suffered from these potentially. | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
But the real problem was the bonds. They bought them because they | :16:38. | :16:47. | |
wanted to stabilise... He was tending? Absolutely. -- it was | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
tempting. Super League got the best of them? A view can put it like | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
that. -- so, greed got the best. you get your theocracy in Cyprus, | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
it is bloated and parallels to Greece in a way. You civil servant | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
salary accounts for nearly one third of GDP. For yes. That is a | :17:09. | :17:17. | |
lot for a small island of 845,000 people. You are half-right on this, | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
in the sense that I believe that overall we have an efficient public | :17:22. | :17:29. | |
sector in price -- in Cyprus. A small public sector, which manages | :17:29. | :17:37. | |
very well. On this, you are not right. But you are right when you | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
say the percentage and you are right that we have to recognise | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
that traditionally, the situ -- civil servants in Cyprus are well | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
paid and a privilege. Will they get salary cuts? I suppose they will. | :17:54. | :18:01. | |
They have already. More? This is part of the discussion. Most | :18:01. | :18:08. | |
probably we will end up at least with some temporary deductions, yes. | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
A because the President has said that he will do as much as he can | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
to resist the austerity measures. Yes. He is very left of centre. | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
Resist austerity measures. He means by that to protect the working | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
class. He is leftist in origin and he wants to preserve the working | :18:30. | :18:36. | |
class. He does not want people that do not earn much having to pay the | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
price. And that his seat. But he never said that we would not do any | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
cuts in the public sector or reduce salaries there. Aren't you worried | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
about the anger that could be provoked among the people? I want | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
to dwell on this because the leader of the left-wing party has said | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
that the debt crisis in Greece risks ruining the European ideal. A | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
Europe split into north and south. And the only way he says this is -- | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
this can survive is through solidarity. He goes on to make the | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
point that you can see a far-right party, the neo- Nazi party, gaining | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
a greater amount of popularity increase as people's angle | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
increases. Are you worried about anything like that? -- anger. | :19:28. | :19:36. | |
Nobody is immune from this kind of phenomenon. At the same time, in | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
Cyprus, we are used to having labour and industrial relations | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
through a very consensual dialogue. Even now, in these difficult times, | :19:45. | :19:54. | |
we try our best to have partners onboard. It is not always easy. But | :19:54. | :20:00. | |
I believe we do not need to have the same situation as in Greece. If | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
the measures are temporary and if we keep some fundamental notions of | :20:06. | :20:13. | |
solidarity, and if you like the social safety net and the automatic | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
stabilisers that exist in European economies, we will manage. And is | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
it that challenge that will define the European Union now? We talked | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
about the Nobel Prize and have the values of unity and stability were | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
important them. But, surely now, the challenge for the EU is how it | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
responds to the higher unemployment that we see unprecedented and the | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
poverty that we also see? It has got to find a narrative that | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
appeals both to be people in power and also to the people in | :20:45. | :20:52. | |
countries? You said it all. I agree 100%. This is a big challenge. | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
Today, what we see his distance between citizens and institutions. | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
That is because we are not convincing, we are not credible and | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
people have no confidence. We need... This is the message of the | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
Cyprus threatened. We need a better Europe, which has to be more | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
relevant to the citizens. -- site this precedent. In times of crisis, | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
we need to go forward with fiscal consolidation. This is a | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
prerequisite. But, at the same time, and there was this shift of | :21:25. | :21:33. | |
paradigm in recent months, we need to foster growth, job creation, we | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
need more social cohesion and solidarity, and we need to create a | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
future for our children. Because you have many people unemployed now | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
in the 17 Europe countries. We need to restore confidence. What is the | :21:47. | :21:57. | |
vision? Francois Hollande says that they believe in sovereignty. The | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
Germans say they want more of Europe. They want to have a say in | :22:01. | :22:08. | |
national budgets. They say indebted nations need to know that there is | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
some kind of influence in that. There are two competing visions. | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
Yes. But I believe personally that this is the wrong debate. What we | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
need now is to do what it takes in order to go forward and solve the | :22:22. | :22:31. | |
problems and get Europe out of the crisis. This is why I am the | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
President is saying a better Europe. Europe is part of the solution and | :22:35. | :22:42. | |
not the problem. This debate offer more Europe and less Europe, more | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
or less sovereignty, this is a debate that will go on forever. | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
Let's get the job done and then we will give a name to the baby. It is | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
not the time for this. Of course the discussions will continue. I | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
don't mind if, in order to solve the economic problems of Europe, we | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
have to look closer to the national budget. We need to do whatever it | :23:08. | :23:16. | |
takes. How confident are you? You are enduring the worst fire -- | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
worst crisis in the financial history. The Nobel Prize was given | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
to you because of what you did in the past but could that act as a | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
shot in the arm for the EU to try to galvanise everybody together, to | :23:28. | :23:35. | |
try to find a blueprint for recovery? I wouldn't agree more. | :23:35. | :23:42. | |
do believe exactly this, yes! will cement the European Union in | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
order to work harder, in order to find necessary solutions. Now, that | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
we are working for a genuine economic and monetary union, which | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
will manage to bring together both the monetary dimension, the | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
economic dimension, the budgetary dimension and the democratic | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
dimension. Of course, we don't change the situation from one day | :24:04. | :24:13. |