Kiran Bedi - Director General, Indian Police Service 2006 - 2007 HARDtalk

Now on BBC news, it is time for The brutal gang rape and murder of

a young woman in Delhi in December 2012 has prompted India to confront

a disturbing truth: The country is failing to protect women from

sexual violence. My guest Kiran Bedi has seen the problem close-up,

she was the most senior female police officer in the Indian Police

Service when she retired. Is India ready for the deep-seated changes

10 Bedi in New Delhi, welcome to HARDtalk. -- Kiran Bedi. Thank you.

Let me ask you a question based on a hard truth, the brutal sexual

attack, rape and murder of the young women in Delhi on 16th

December was not entirely unusual, what is extraordinary is the surge

of popular anger on the streets we have seen since. Can you explain to

me pie the outcry has been so pronounced across the country? --

why. By and large, this has been a perennial problem. It has been a

persistent problem of women being harassed, victims of sexual assault

and then having to bear it. Bear it because of family pressure. Bear it

because of the response of law- enforcement indices. -- agencies.

Bear it because of a fear of a delayed trial. There is a fear of

being stopped at the man is out on bail. There is the fear of social

stigma. There is a lot of non reporting. This was an outrage.

Every woman almost related with it. Every father related with it.

question, there have been many similar outrages before. There have

been similar outrages since 16th December. And struggling to define

exactly why this case has had such a dramatic impact across the

country. I think this was one of the most brutal in recent times.

Truly brutal. It happened right in the capital. I think the amount of

media gaze on this led it reached almost every home. With 247

channels, it reached every home in every language. It shocked every

woman who had been somehow harassed seriously. Women related with it.

Woman felt it could be them. And every woman felt it could be her. I

think every parent could feel that it could be their daughter. Every

man probably felt it could be their sister or their wife. I think

almost every citizen of this country, thanks to the 247 mac

channel, it reached every home. It impacted on every woman in every --

and every conscientious citizen of the country. You served in the

police for more than 30 years. When you left, you were the more senior

female officer in the fours. You are very much a part of the system,

the policing system. Would you agree that that system is

fundamentally failing the women of your country? Yes it is. The Indian

Police system has not been reformed since the British left India. We

are still governed by the Police Act of 1861. The Indian parliament

has not enacted another new legislation to replace the Police

Act of 1861. With all of its inadequacies, the police has been

performing. Is still reports to the politicians at the helm. It still

reports to the bureaucracy at the helm. It is accountable to the lot.

But, it does not report to the law as such. I have been a part of the

system. I delivered it within inadequacies. There are political

interferences, bureaucratic controls, insensitive communities.

There is delayed justice. There is weak prosecution. There is none

reformed prison. I have been a part of the system but I delivered it

within the inadequacies. Unfortunately, these inadequacies

still remained. It is not a criminal justice system. It is

police, prosecution, prisons. There is not one hub which is connecting

all of these very important cogs and making it one Criminal Justice

wheel. That has been the inadequacy. I have delivered within the

inadequacy by all kind of creative and innovative systems. By

creativity of which was generated. The fact is, it is not binding. It

is not part of the criminal justice system. It is seriously lacking.

For it to be Co ordinated, to become one field which delivers, to

remain independent, to co-ordinate and deliver as one criminal justice

system, that is a long way off. want to talk about the wider

criminal justice system later in the interview. Let's take policing

at the moment. What is it about the current police force and its

mentality that simply does not get that sexual violence directed at

women is utterly unacceptable and has to be taken seriously at the

very highest levels? I asked you the question because, since 16th

December and the outcry over that particular attack and murder, we

have seen some truly incredible incidents. We have seen 121 year-

old girl who was raped and found murdered and it became clear when

the case was investigated afterwards that the police had

refused to register the family's missing complaint. They told them

to Galway. This happened after 16th December. That goal away. We had a

Punjab girl who killed herself after drinking -- who killed

herself by drinking poison after she had been raped because she

found the way the police had handled her tastes so utterly

upsetting. She ended up taking her on life. -- handled her case. What

is it that the police do not get? Do have good police officers and

you have been sensitive police officers. -- you have. Many police

officers are not of the same category. The unfortunate thing is

that the good work done by the good senior Indian Police officers and

down the rank of the constabulary does not come into the limelight.

What comes into the limelight is the gross injustice which is

absolutely intolerable and not acceptable. The fact is, Indian

Police system, it is still the pre- independence model of statistics.

It is still judged by the number of crimes reported and registered.

There is always a tendency, and there are exceptions, there is

always a tendency to register the minimum. To try to minimise crime.

It is appraised by the number of cases it registers, not the number

of cases it sends to court or are convicted. It is not judged by

convictions. There does not seem to be any accountability. One more

shocking anecdote, post 16th December, the Wall Street Journal

reported that the 247 hotline for reporting rapes which has been

trumpeted by they are authorities as a fundamental reform that has

been made to address the serious issues, if people call that hotline,

just a few days after the 16th December attack, they got a

recorded message telling them to try later. While the top brass of

the police not being forced to account for and perhaps resigned

for the failings of their service? The Supreme Court of India directed

the government of the country to separate law-and-order duties from

the system. It is not implemented. You are asking about senior police

officers. Remember, the same Supreme Court judgment had wanted

an installation, had directed senior officers to insulate it from

the political Russia. This is between the Security Commission. --

political leadership. This has citizens in it, even the leader of

the opposition. This is providing stability to the police leadership.

It leaves them to deliver. That has not happened. Let me complete this.

Forgive me for interrupting. You have given me a catalogue of

reasons why the system is not working. I must challenge you. You

were not slow in coming forward in the surge of unrest over what is

happening in Delhi with regard to the last few weeks. You said, for

example, that you were sure that you, personally, if you were

invited to step back in, could change the culture of the Delhi

police in 90 days. How an earth do you propose that you could do that?

That is exactly what I am trying to save. Let me complete and where I

left. There are officers and officers. There were officers like

me who were not afraid of getting posted anywhere. That is so I got

assignments which were considered as punishment assignments. They

might not have been. -- they ought not to have been. There are brave

and courageous officers. They do not wait for a page and a jaw for

favours to be done on transfers and postings. Thus do not wait for

favours to be done. This is what the Supreme Court of India wanted

to correct. Let there be a system Exchange. Police officers must not

have to depend on political patronage to court. A new minister

comes into a particular police state and here she changes the

leadership. War, she does not wait for the tenure to have been

completed. That is the reason. Unless you handle things like that.

The brilliant officers delivered. They delivered with courage of

conviction and with total commitment to the common man. There

are officers and officers. There is a lot going on in the country.

Let's not just talk about police process and bureaucracy. Let's talk

about the bigger picture. There are many different ways in which one

might describe India as still being a society where women are not truly

treated as first class citizens. They have second-class status. You

are a woman. You served in a police force where fewer than 10 % of the

overall numbers are female. How did you, when you were responsible for

training and development, how did you try to change that?

I had excellent leadership during my time. I was aligned with the

commissioner. I had some senior people, when I could deliver, I

delivered. There were some fine police officers. There are a number

of them. I am not mentioning any more names. You did not do an

excellent job because we are discussing a police force that all

the different human rights groups and women's rights groups in India

described as fundamentally sexist. The majority of male officers do

not take sexual violence directed at women seriously. This is because

these officers, many brave officers, they are encouraging free

registration. Remember, they sometimes earned the wrath of the

politicians who want figures. Many of them do not register crimes

against women what they do not register crimes generally. You have

got both the drugs. You have got drugs which are still committed to

deliver and you have got individuals who are looking at

their political leadership to retain their positions. That is the

category which is not leading its force. It creates a deficit in

financing. They are the ones who eat away the good accounts created

by some good officers. They leave a deficit account when they leave.

They leave it bankrupt. Officers pulled the Bank of goodwill and

other officers laboured bankrupt by eating away on the goodwill. There

is a nexus between the politicians, How seriously should we take the

commitments made in the last few weeks about female officers taking

on women's rights properly. The idea that there's a desk in every

police station offering counselling in response to the terrible crimes

being committed. How realistic is it to expect those promises to be

delivered on? Such promises have been made in the past but the

situation has never been as volatile and as demanding and

explosive as today. The new young India, men and women, girls and

boys, parents, citizens, activists, have all come on the streets saying

enough is enough. We have had enough promises, this time it is

going to be different. This time, the commissioner heading the

suggestions which will make recommendations is being led by a

very well reputed former Chief Justice of India. It also has a

former chief justice of a High Court in India, a woman. These

three members, and another well reputed Justice, is going to look

at it. While they make the right recommendations, and I know they

are going to make dramatic recommendations, they are going to

break from the past, these youth of this country, and the citizens of

this country, are not going to let the political class and the

bureaucratic class and the police leadership go away. They will go

back to the streets, and to all these recommendations are honoured.

I will be part of the streets. -- until al. Powerful stuff but you're

not really able to change the system, 93% of India's senior

judges are men. Most of India's senior politicians are men. If you

look at what they have been saying since 60th December, both some of

the most senior judges and most senior politicians, they to don't

seem to get it when it comes to respecting the importance of this

issue of crimes committed against women. Well, these are people who

are reflecting their mind sets. In fact this occasion is letting us

know what is suppressed in the mind set. This is the group, this is the

constituency we have to work towards to insure that they become

a minority, and not remain the loud voices which are always heard. They

are exposing themselves. Let's be clear about this. When a leading

figure in the nationalist right, no and that flat, when he says that

the sexual crime situation in your country can be blamed on the

western lifestyles of women in urban areas. He's a politician, he

is only saying that because he thinks that wins in support.

There's a problem with the mindset? That's exactly what I said. He is

not the only one. There have been plenty of statements and it is open

to many interpretations. I'm not getting into these contradictions

because each one has come back with clarifications. All I'm saying is

that men are men. There are men with the women's on the streets.

You also have individuals with closed minds of Conservatives all

of their own mind sets which they are convinced about, also sharing

their views. They are not influencing the modern youth of

this country any more. They have been counted very well. The lesson

and the message is going very clearly as to what the new India

and the new Indian woman and the new Indian youth onces. We have

talked about this engender terms, but is this not something we must

discuss in class terms? -- in gender. When another senior judge

asked not so long ago, in the case of an allegation of a rape against

an untouchable woman, he asked rhetorically how can a phallic

woman be raped? Which suggests to me, this is not just a gender issue,

it is a cast and a class issue. That's the past. I think this

country has moved very strongly forward since December 16th. You

have all kinds of history is, you have got dynamic and you have got

these negative statements to -- histories. Indian youth has changed,

Indian perception has changed and the way women are speaking up today

has changed since the 16th December. This woman, who died, and whose

name has not yet been made public, we are calling her fearless the

brave heart. It is gone but it has left Indian youth and Indian

society recharge. You have called for some pretty populist measures.

You have said, and this I found very striking, that Indians need

not only to respect the law but to fear the law. It seems you want to

see a much wider use of the death penalty in these sexual crime cases.

Am I right in reading you that way? And how many of these convict

convicted sex criminals do you want to put to death? I am for... India

already has a death penalty on the statute book. It uses it in rare

cases. I am for such gruesome crimes, such brutal rapes, to be

considered in the rarest of the rare cases. That's what I'm four.

If I may, what about the idea of posting convicted rapists' details

online so people would learn their family home address. Are you in

favour of that? I'm in favour and this is likely to be a strong

recommendation of the justice committee. A lot of this idea has

been sent by lots of rights activists to the justice. We in the

first Lynch mob goes to the home of a convicted rapist and burns it

down and perhaps injures or kills the people inside, how will you

feel then? At the moment I am on victim ology, right now I'm

focusing on the victims' rights. I am for a balanced Indian system,

there has been an imbalance in the favour of criminal rights. I am

balancing the rights for a change on the rights of the criminal and

the rights of the victim. And for the larger safety of the community.

We can cross the bridge is when they come. I am not for lynch-mob

saw the burning of the Houses of criminals, but I want a balance

between the victim being at the centre of the criminal justice

system rather than the criminal. So far the system has been more

focused on the rights of the criminal. I would like to see in my

life a balance between the rights of the victim and the rights of the

criminal. You have great ambitions for change in India across the

police service, the judiciary, the entire criminal justice system. How

realistic is it... You say India's come to a turning point and is

changing, look at the facts. The gender inequality index ranks India

129 out of 146. It is below neighbouring Bangladesh, below

Pakistan. It is going to take decades and decades to achieve the

sort of change that you've talked about, albeit you've talked about

90 days, it's going to take more like 90 years. When I was talking

about 90 days I was talking about training the Delhi police. I was

looking at putting in right practices for Delhi police. For

India to change, even if it starts the change, every person needs

better employment and more opportunities. I think any change

is coming out of the deficit to a surplus, but when I was talking

about 90 days I was talking about training the Delhi police, and I

know this force are like the back of my palm and I think that we need

to put together community goodwill and other things. I have the

confidence for 90 days with that background that I have. But India

needs integrity at the political level. That is why we have been

working for the last two years to bring in a strong anti- corruption

ombudsman in this country based on the UN Convention against

corruption. It isn't yet to see light of day. That has to come up

along with judicial and police reforms. -- it is yet to. Then we

can go back to infrastructure. There has to be fundamental change

in education as well as legal reform, to change the next

generation's ideas about these matters? Absolutely, for that you

need the money and the will. That comes from integrity, men and women

of integrity to be at the helm. That is why I said fear of law. The

corrupt public servant and politician has to be afraid of the

North and afraid of losing the loot, losing the lost money -- afraid of

the law. They have to be afraid of losing the money that belongs to

the poor. It is the poor man's money that has gone overseas. It is