Doreen Lawrence - Director, The Stephen Lawrence Charitable Trust HARDtalk

coalition. It is time for HARDtalk.

On 22nd April, 1993, Stephen Lawrence was murdered in South

London. He was black. His attackers were white. The killing and

subsequent investigation exposed of and institutional racism within the

police force. My guest at today is Stephen's mother, Doreen Lawrence.

Thence to her tireless campaigning, just as for her son's killers. --

fence. Two decades on, how much has Welcome to HARDtalk. It has been

pretty much two decades since your son Stephen was brutally murdered.

I just wondered whether time has in any sense demanded the clarity of

your recollection of that night in April 1993, when you learnt of his

to me. It is something that you never expect to hear. I believe

that quite often, that night, when I was told that Stephen had been

attacked and subsequently found out that he was murdered. A campaign

that you have fought for so long for justice. As there ever been a

time, when frankly, Stephen has not been uppermost in your thoughts and

the biggest priority in your life in all of those years since then?

Anything that I had done over the years was trying to get justice for

Stephen. The trust is to carry on the working his name and help other

people. He is always at the forefront of my mind. Let's fast-

forward to nastier. Pretty much one year ago, when you were there. --

courtroom, courtroom, when two men were

finally convicted of the murder of Stephen. Described to me your

feelings as you realise that the jury had finally convicted two

individuals? Leading up to that, looking at the jury's you could

never tell all read anything, the information that they were

receiving, that they would ever find these young men guilty. When

they said the jury had made a decision, my heart was pounding

away, because I did not still expect to hear the guilty verdict.

When they said that, it seems like everything was going off in my head

at the same time, the emotions, the tears, wanted to flow out. Because

of where I was, I felt that I could not. I could not let that emotion

come out. I wonder whether you had an overwhelming sense of justice

being done or whether it wasn't like that? I did not feel that

justice was done in the way that I would like. The time it has taking

and the pain, to get two out of the Fayed was partial justice, I would

have loved to see all five of them sitting in the dock. You say two of

otherse are others who are still free, who

should have been in that dark as well, and to in your view, I guilty

of involvement in the murder of your son. -- are guilty. Definitely,

definitely. What do the police say to you? Are they still

investigating? As far as I am aware, they are still. But there are

rumours that they feel they have done as much as they can. The judge

did say to the officer who was in court, he believed that they should

continue the investigation, but it is 20 years on, they feel they have

spent enough money and it should come to an end. You sound quite

bitter about your relationship with the police. You said not long ago,

the police are not interested to do anything more, because it shows

them up for their incompetence and the fact they are corrupt. A

powerful statement. It played a heavy part in the first

investigation. For them, not wanting to continue, because they

believe that the two they have must be enough, I do not think it should.

We should not have to wait 20 years to get to this position. This is

back in 1993. We should not have to wait for so long to have any

conviction at all. An independent lawyer is looking at allegations of

corruption concerning police officers who were involved in the

original investigation. Does that give you some sense of reassurance

that even now, 20 years on, the police are taking seriously your

complaints from the past and also your desire to see the

investigation continued? I think it is great that we are having a

review, because we wanted an inquiry. The public inquiry in 1999,

whether he wanted to or not, he felt he couldn't, as if his hires -

- hands were tied to talking about corruption. The William Macpherson

panel was an extremely important moment in the entire story. We had

at the most senior level, lawyers looking at what the police did, why

it failed, and coming up with recommendations, both for the

police as an institution but also for wider British society to combat

the scourge of racism. In fact, what Jack Straw said at the time,

it was a watershed, and how the case had touched Middle England, as

if to say what happened to Stephen, his murder, you should have touched

a Middle England a long time ago. McPherson, at the time, whether his

hands were tied, but there was so much that was coming out about the

police, the investigation, that corruption was another thing that

they could not have dealt with the time. The public inquiry would have

given us a little bit, the review is just looking at papers, whether

or not they will interview anybody, I have no idea. You are concerned

about corruption, but to finish on this idea of justice, there can

nothing be more important than a feeling that justice has been down.

Do you believe that those others, who you still insist are involved

in Stephen's murder, will be brought before a court, will be

charged, and will be dealt with? That is quite difficult to answer.

Do I believe that they will be brought to justice? I can only hope

that they will be. As I said before, the information and the evidence,

right from the start, they did not have that. Nothing was concrete

within the evidence that they had. Will they be able to have enough

evidence for them to be tried, I do not know. Hopefully the review

might be able to help. It seems to me the sense of unfinished business

that you have about the legal process is yet one more way in

which you have had to pay an unbelievable price, obviously you

lost your son and that is the real prize, but you are not a ball ever

to have a sense that this is finished. -- able. But only when I

have to deal with that I tend to focus on it. If I focus on a

constantly, I am not sure where exactly what I would be, mentally

and physically. You did not want to be in the limelight, but you were,

inevitably, because of the way in which the British public identify

with your suffering, the suffering of losing a son but then feeling

that justice was not being done. The system was not losing --

working problem. As a result, you got access to higher senior

officials, Parliament. You were even visited by Nelson Mandela at

one point. Did you come to a realisation that you could use that

leverage, that you had a voice in indolence that you could use not

just in your own case, but in the wider issue of race relations in

the UK? Yes, I have spoken to ministers many times. I used to get

letters from members of the public. They would come to see me. I would

raise their suffering. The fact that I have a boys, I felt that was

important, to be able to address the issues. I'm not sure I was able

to make a big difference in their cases, but I was able to raise an

issue with ministers. How do you want to use that for us now, not

just in the case of Stephen, but also in some of the other issues

raised by his death, particularly as it was described by it

Macpherson report, institutional racism in the Metropolitan Police?

Do you believe that racism is still present? I believe that racism is

still present within the Metropolitan Police. That I think

over the years, I have worked with quite a few civil officers, I have

worked within the Home Office, the stop-and-search group, I shed.

fascinates me, used shed a trust do not have either trust or

confidence in the police. I have met some officers that I had real

respect for respect fore that I do not. The idea of the trust and

the Community could work with the police to gain trust. In some areas

we have made a difference that there is still a lot of work that

needs to be down. In the last couple of days -- years where it

has been rolling around the stop- and-search issue, the public are

beginning to lose their trust. Stop-and-search issues are very

topical, particularly in your family. Just a couple of months ago,

your son launched a formal complaint with police after he had

been stopped for the 25th time driving his car, doing nothing

illegal, stopped by the police and questioned. It is now in the hands

of an independent investigation. It is being overseen by the

Independent Police Complaints Commission. You obviously talk to

your son. Do you believe that he feels he is the victim of racism,

right now, right here in London? Yes he does. They cannot justify

the reason why they stopped him. Listen to the terminology that they

use, section 12, or whatever it is, and not tell him exactly what it

means, they do not have a document dating show, tell me what it is,

but they cannot do it. But the police had to protect and secured

the city. And they know that there are parts of London, perhaps not so

far away from where you live, that crime rates are very high. A

significant proportion of the crimes are committed by young black

males. Is it unreasonable and to consider that reality in the way

they police the streets of those neighbourhoods? If they think that

crime is committed snigger get me by young black men, they need to

have the figures to prove that. -- significantly. We want the police

to be able to do the jobs to make sure that we are said, nobody would

carry out the job. But that is what is questionable, the attitude and

behaviour of officers, who they stop and when they stop, and who

they select. You said that BR has changed in the police but the

officers on the street have not. You talk about having data and

evidence, where is your evidence, despite everything that it

Macpherson said, the training programmes, three successive

commissioners saying they have zero tolerance for racism, where is your

evidence that things have not changed? One big example. 18 months

ago, we had a meeting close to Scotland Yard. This is before the

trial happened the year before last. We went up for our meeting. As we

the desk, be careful what you say, you do not know who is listening.

And I said, what is this about? The officers said, Doreen Lawrence is

in the building. They should be ashamed to show their faces here.

If that does not tell me that You have access to politicians. You

talk to Prime Minister has from time to time. Do you believe the

David Cameron-led coalition Government is listening to your

concerns and is making sure the fight to combat racism is

this government. I feel that racism is not on the agenda. A letter went

to the Prime Minister. This was about public equality duties and

about race. I have received a letter back saying that it is on

the agenda. Unless I can see definitely, I do not believe that

it is. You can say words, but how true is that?

They brought you a letter in December saying that your son's

legacy was to change the way we think about race in this country

and they want to reiterate the government's commitment to equal

opportunity. If you look at the Equality Bill, race is not one of

the words that they use. The use diversity. Race itself and how the

black community is treated, I do not feel that they are taking it

seriously. seriously. letters and say words. Let me bring

it back to you and your life and I am intrigued, when you look

around, literature grandchildren, you consider the way that their

lives are as young black people in London today and you think about

the way things have changed in the last 20 years since Stephen's death,

do you really think that not much has changed for the better? I would

not say that. A lot has changed. I did not say things have not changed.

A lot of things have changed. I think my concern is how much things

have been rolled back. If we are not careful, all of the work and

all of the recommendations from the report, if you ask people in the

black community, what has changed for you, of poor have since moved

on to, they will tell you that not much has changed for them. -- Where

Have things move for you? confidence to UC channels that are

available, but you have had to learn to use over 20 years, can you

see ways to help others in your community gain confidence? Yes. I

try to do it. I suggest what they can do to address the issues. There

is not much I can do personally with individuals. I can tell them

my experiences. You have a charitable trust. You have poured a

lot of resources into that along with government funding into

helping disadvantaged minority kids get a leg up, particularly into the

profession that your son wanted to get into. Architecture. That has

worked well. We can show what we have done over the past 12 years,

how much young people have progressed. There are two of them

who have started their own practices. Four were five of them

are architects. They have not qualified. In that respect, we have

fought hard. One thing that strikes me is that you point to the rolling

back of some of the advances made in the last couple of years -- he

last 20 years and you talk about the commitment of some of the

police to take on this anti-racism agenda. I wondered whether a part

of you is angry with this country. You were born in Jamaica. You came

here. I wonder whether a part of you thinks this country has let you

down badly. Part of it has but I would not say that I have not

benefited from being in this country. I would never say that.

Malik has been difficult, especially since Stephen's death. -

- my life. Since Stephen's death, it has been difficult. At the same

time, I have used thing to my advantage and for my family and I

have also tried to help other individuals. And not just doing

things for me. Everything I do is looking to support others, rather

than just myself. I would say that I have and other people have

progressed. And yet you and the family took the

decision to bury Stephen back in Jamaica. You seem to have a lot of

symbolic power with that decision. Why did you take it? At the time, I

was very angry. I felt that Stephen would not be able to rest in peace

in this country. I did not think the country deserve to have him

here. I have not regretted burying him in Jamaica. Over the years, the

spot where he died has been attacked how many times? I think

his grave to be desecrated quite a few times. I have not regretted

that. The spot where he died in south London has been subject to

attack and graffiti? Yes. Have you been subject to threat and a tie?

Yes. In the early days, our car was attacked. We get letters sent to

the trust about me. Recently, one came through about Stuart, my other

son. Of a people are angry. Stephen's name brings pupils angry.

Does that make you fearful? Does it make steward fearful? I told him

yesterday to be careful when he is out. I always worry. I tell him not

to be out too late and I worry about him travelling home. The fear

is always there. I find that staggering, really, that you,

Doreen Lawrence, you have become something of a symbol in this

country in the fight for racial equality and fairness, you now feel,

still, 20 years after Stephen's death, frightened, certainly to be

out on your own on the streets of London. Yes, yes. Not everybody out

there thinks what I have done is grid. There are still people out

there, many a time, people will say things like Stephen should not be

here anyway. They say things like that should have happened to him.

There have been threats. A taken seriously. I don't think I am going

to be safe wherever I am out. going back to this point about his

burial in Jamaica, do you ever think that the struggle has been

long and hard and, actually, I might go back to Jamaica myself?

I have never thought about going back to Jamaica. I do not know the

country very well. I visit the country. There is a difference

between visiting and living. I do not think that I will pack up and

never come back. I felt that Steve and at the right thing. -- I feel

that we did the right thing with Steve and was angry. I wish I could

visit his grave more often. I want to end of the final question about

Stephen. We began with the day of his death. It is pretty much 20

years on. How do you think he would feel about your long struggle? I

don't know if you can picture him in your mind's eye but what do you

think he did say to you? I think he would be proud of me. I

remember when I was always worrying about him going out on the street

and I told him to be careful and he would say "mother, do you know what

your problem is, you worry too much." Even know he would be proud,

he would think, "do you have to go on for so long?" I think that he

deserved better. I think he him. If I can detect some other

families and some other children, that is what I will do. -- If I can

protect. I do it for my own children. Stephen would think