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stop the North's nuclear programme. HARDtalk has come to Dublin, the | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
capital of Ireland, which currently holds the presidency of the | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
European Union. It's a symbolic leadership role which coincides | :00:22. | :00:28. | |
with the Irish government's attempts to escape from the | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
economic straitjacket imposed by the EU and the IMF. -- when they | :00:32. | :00:38. | |
agreed to bail-out the Irish economy. My guest today is | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
Ireland's Europe minister Lucinda Creighton. Is this country ready to | :00:42. | :00:52. | |
:00:52. | :01:06. | ||
convince the world that it is Lucinda Creighton, welcome to | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
HARDtalk. Starting with the enormous debt mountain that has | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
almost crushed the Irish state. In the last few days, your government | :01:13. | :01:20. | |
trumpeted a deal which in essence saw it remortgage a large chunk of | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
that debt. It seems a symbol of how deep the crisis is in this country, | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
that that is the greatest triumph of the government. I suppose we are | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
not even midway through the government's term in office. I hope | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
that by the end of the turn, we will have achieved more than just | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
simply reducing the debt burden. But it is important. We have a | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
medium-term strategy. One part of that was stabilising the public | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
finances. That has been achieved to some extent. The next step is | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
getting back to the market and being able to borrow money at a | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
reasonable rate, the sustainable rate, so we can fund public | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
services and so on and run the government. That deadline is fast | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
approaching. Ensuring that we have management -- we are managing the | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
debt burden is an important part of that task. Although this concerns | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
the 30 billion euros or so that was a crude as a result of the collapse | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
of the Irish Bank nationwide, that money still has to be paid back | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
over the next 40 years and it also does not mean you have solved the | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
problem of your other banking debt, the tens of billions of more euros. | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
There is no doubt that Ireland has taken a disproportionate hit in | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
terms of the banking crisis in Europe. We were the first country | :02:45. | :02:52. | |
standing against what was pretty much a tsunami in the banking world, | :02:52. | :02:58. | |
which was about to hit the European Union in particular and the | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
eurozone. Ireland was the first country in the line of fire. We | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
definitely took a disproportionate hit. It is interesting that even | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
when you and other members of the government said it was a great | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
result for Ireland over the last few days, thousands of people took | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
to the streets in Dublin and elsewhere in the country led by the | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
trades union movement saying that actually nothing fundamental has | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
changed. The Irish people are still paying vast amount of money and | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
suffering prolonged austerity because of the mistakes made and | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
the incompetence of the leaders of the banking system in this country | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
and politicians and Europeans who refuse to be fair to the Irish | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
public. I think very few people would say nothing has changed. It | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
is significant. Over the next ten years, the Irish taxpayers would | :03:49. | :03:59. | |
each year every year in order to pay back the promissory note. That | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
has now changed. We do not pay any of the principal sum for 25 years. | :04:04. | :04:11. | |
The repayment period has extended from an average of 7-8 years, close | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
to 30 years. The interest rate would be at a lower rate. It's a | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
good deal and an important deal. It is not the only solution to our | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
challenges. When I talk about the people who say not much has changed, | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
they are ordinary workers, indeed many jobless people, who see the | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
reality of their lives and say, what will actually change for me? | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
Just looking at the fact that your next Budget will still be an | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
austerity budget, there will be new taxes on property and water, as far | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
as I understand you are still committed to cutting 4 billion war | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
from the state budget by 2015. So the cuts will continue. -- more. | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
The trade unions sake New Deal, same problem, 1.8 million people | :04:58. | :05:05. | |
can't possibly pay off a bank debt amounting to 64 billion euros. -- | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
say a new deal. We are still in the process of working out the budget | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
impact of this deal. That is a working process. But austerity | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
continues? Of course. But let's be clear about this. The consolidation | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
programme would have to continue in any event. The deficit is very | :05:24. | :05:34. | |
:05:34. | :05:34. | ||
large. Even at the end of 2000 world, it is still a% GDP. -- 2012. | :05:34. | :05:42. | |
It is speaking this year at 100 and -- this year. We still have to | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
close the gap between what we spend and what we take in. That does not | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
change, irrespective of the banking debt. In essence, because the EU | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
required your government to nationalise all of that private | :05:55. | :06:01. | |
debt. But that is not the only reason. It's a part of it. | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
Irish people look at what has happened in Greece, for example, | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
where they renegotiated the bail- out package several times, got more | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
money from Europe when they said they could not cope with the | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
austerity imposed upon them. Irish people said, we have been the good | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
guys. We have been obedient to the Gen -- German and Brussels driven | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
programme. And because of that, we get punished the most. There are | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
two sides to that. One is that the situation in Greece is not | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
comparable to the situation in Ireland. We have different problems, | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
there is a different analysis and there are different solutions. It | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
is not fair to say that Ireland has been treated differently or less | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
favourably to how Greece has been treated. That is not true. Secondly, | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
we have been working incrementally since we came into office just | :06:58. | :07:04. | |
under two years ago to reduce the burden on Irish taxpayers. That is | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
fundamentally my government's task. Reduced to the interest rate in | :07:08. | :07:15. | |
loans in 20th July 11. Over the course of a lifetime, that will | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
save taxpayers about 10 billion euros. -- July 2011. The promissory | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
note was completely unfair and unreasonable and unsustainable as | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
an arrangement between the Irish central bank and the successor to | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
Anglo Irish Bank and the ECB. That deal will now save the taxpayer | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
over the next ten years about 20 billion euros. Bit by bit, we are | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
improving the situation in terms of the debt burden on the Irish state. | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
Meanwhile, we are concentrating on getting the Irish economy back on | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
track. Reforming the economic sector by insuring that we make | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
Ireland more competitive. -- ensuring. Which requires growth. We | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
have seen six austerity budgets in four years. There are bound to be | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
more over the coming two or three years. That has not really changed. | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
We see unemployment at around 15%. We see young people, we will talk | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
about this more later, leaving this country because they can't find | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
work. I put it to you again. The trade unions are leading a popular | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
movement which says enough. We can't take any more. The trade | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
unions obviously have a rule which they -- a role which they have to | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
fill in society and the Irish economy but there are other voices. | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
Employers, small and medium-sized enterprises. It is not just the | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
voice of trade unions we have to listen to. All elements of the | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
economy and society. If you look at Ireland, you can compare us to | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
other member states without naming them, but the Irish economy in 2011, | :08:59. | :09:09. | |
there in mind we entered the programme, the IMF-EU programme at | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
the end of 2010. In 2011, the situation in Ireland had largely | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
stabilised and rebate -- began to attract investment again. In 2011, | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
that was when we are attracted the highest level of the first time | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
foreign direct investment in the history of the state. Do you | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
believe in Ireland the out of the economic straitjacket imposed by | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
the EU and IMF and the emergency bail-out, will you be escaped from | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
that by the end of this year? For sure? Absolutely. One last | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
figure which I just wonder whether it gives you pause. The trade | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
unions claimed that every Irish person has paid 9,000 euros per | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
capita, in terms of the bank bail- out and what it cost the Irish | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
state and taxpayer. They think the average across the European Union | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
is 192 euros. They argue Ireland has bought the massive brand of | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
this. I am not sure how they calculate that. But if that is to | :10:14. | :10:20. | |
include all debt, as if it was paid up front, that does not reflect | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
reality because the repayment period is extended for both the | :10:23. | :10:33. | |
loans that we have had to borrow. And indeed through the promissory | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
notes. Stability, jobs and growth has been... That is the agenda. | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
mantra for your presidency. How will you ensure that Europe adopts | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
a programme that delivers stability, jobs and growth? This is the | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
challenge. The focus is very much firstly on ensuring that the single | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
market, which has been the success story of the European Union and the | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
European project, the consumer market of 500 million people, that | :11:03. | :11:09. | |
it is opened up. We want to seek it opened up so we can see smaller | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
companies, medium-sized companies, foreign direct investors trade | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
across borders through the sale and the exchange of services, of all | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
forms of products. That is not the case at the moment. It is | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
interesting to hear your language compared with that of David Cameron | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
in London when he made that major speech the other day, announcing | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
that if he wins the next British election, they will be an in-out a | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
referendum on European membership for the European public by 2017. | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
His message is that right now he thinks there is something | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
fundamentally dysfunctional about the way the EU works and certainly | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
he wants the renegotiation for Britain of the deal. Do you think | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
there is something dysfunctional about the way the EU works right | :11:58. | :12:05. | |
now? I don't. What I took from David Cameron's speech, which I | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
thought was interesting... It was reaffirming the UK's commitment to | :12:09. | :12:16. | |
the European Union. As long as it reforms. Exactly. But I think that | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
we are all trying... It is difficult. We have 27 member states. | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
Unfortunately, it is not possible to reform like that. But what we | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
want to do and what Ireland and the UK have a common agenda in this | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
respect, and David Cameron is the first to talk about the single | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
market and praise the single market over the last 20 years and talk | :12:38. | :12:46. | |
about the need to improve it... it is by far the biggest trading | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
partner of for you. A respected commentator wrote this the other | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
day. He said, whether our politicians like it or not, | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
relationships with Britain are far more important their relationships | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
with anywhere else in the world. Britain and its relationship with | :13:02. | :13:10. | |
us is our future and our past. Do you agree? I think the UK is our | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
most important trading partner and our bilateral relations are | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
stronger than ever before. How big the problem would it be for Ireland | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
if the British public, in this referendum in 2017, if they voted | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
to leave the European Union? would be very unhelpful. And very | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
problematic for Ireland. I hope it does not happen. I don't believe it | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
will happen but I certainly hope it is not the case. Assuming the | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
Britain left the single market, what would Ireland do? -- that | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
Britain. I don't think we would follow suit. We see huge potential, | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
as does the British government, in deepening the single market and | :13:56. | :14:02. | |
exploiting all of the potential that exists for now and for the | :14:02. | :14:09. | |
future. The other important point for us, a country that has strong | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
ties with the United States and huge hopes and expectations to | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
broaden our horizons in terms of global trade, that leaving the | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
European Union at a time when it is about to embark on a free-trade | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
agreement with the United States, Canada, Japan and other crucial | :14:25. | :14:35. | |
:14:35. | :14:41. | ||
regions of the world, we don't want But to a prime minister has been | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
clear that you cannot cherry-pick the powers that it wants to have. | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
It cannot dictate the terms of the club that is actually of 27, soon | :14:52. | :15:00. | |
to be 28 members. I think that is fair. So Ireland, in essence, | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
thinks that Britain is being profoundly selfish. No. I would not | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
say that. I appreciate that this is a difficult debate in the UK on the | :15:11. | :15:21. | |
:15:21. | :15:22. | ||
subject. I appreciate that the UK government, and British citizens, | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
want to clarify their relationship with the European Union. I want to | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
address a few eternal issues. You have been one of the most outspoken | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
ministers of the current government. Delivering an interesting message, | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
that Ireland needs to modernise and change. Who say that Ireland for | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
too long has had a dysfunctional political system. You say it would | :15:44. | :15:50. | |
be good for Ireland to be a bit more ideological, to have a clearer | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
dividing line between political parties based on ideology of and | :15:55. | :16:01. | |
less on the altar networking that we have seen in the past. At a | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
certain way. With the Cabinet that it is rather unusual that we have a | :16:06. | :16:12. | |
government comprised the first the centre left and the centre right. | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
So are still cronies in government? No. It is still used for that we | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
have a large majority and stable majority in government. It impact | :16:25. | :16:33. | |
on this. Ideological, but also modern. That is the direction you | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
want Ireland to going. I just wonder why you have decided to take | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
a couple of high-profile positions that would not fit easily into that | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
notion of modernisation. The first one, on gay marriage. He said he | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
would be up for civil partnerships. -- you said you would. But you do | :16:53. | :17:00. | |
not want to see gay marriage in Ireland. I suppose I have been a | :17:00. | :17:08. | |
supporter of the notion that gay people should have rights. Equality | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
means that should they wish to do so, they could get married. In just | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
the same way that heterosexual couples could. I suppose it is a | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
matter of opinion. The way the constitution is interpreted by the | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
court system, marriage is and has been and continues to be defined as | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
marriage between a man and a woman. He or defending kiss on the basis | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
of tradition. There is nothing wrong with tradition. Not at all. I | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
am just trying to tease out how this fits with your idea that | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
Ireland needs to look forward to in the 21st century. I do nothing that | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
modernisation means that you just totally abandon tradition. I think | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
that you can have it side by side. There are many ways we need to | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
modernise. I do not believe that is one of them. I am speaking as | :18:00. | :18:07. | |
someone who, unlike many of my colleagues, spoke on error | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
legislation two years ago to introduce civil partnership. I | :18:11. | :18:19. | |
spoke passionately on behalf of it. It is a matter of opinion. And one | :18:19. | :18:26. | |
thing I do think will happen, by the way, is that there will be a | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
referendum to change the definition of marriage in our constitution at | :18:30. | :18:36. | |
some point. What will people decide? Genuinely I do not know. I | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
think there is divided opinion. Opinions are shifting, aren't they? | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
If one is going to be blunt about it, the role and influence of the | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
Catholic Church's changing pretty rapidly. Absolutely. If I may make | :18:51. | :18:59. | |
another point, you passionate defence of Ireland, -- Island's | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
current laws about abortion, it is one of the most difficult countries | :19:04. | :19:11. | |
when it comes to outlawing abortion. There needs to be a substantial, | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
significant risk to the life of the mother. You want the status quo to | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
be maintained even though there is a loud and public argument with | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
many Irish people who want a change. Indeed, your own government is | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
talking about legislating to be clearer and broader about the | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
situations in which abortion can be carried out. I would take issue | :19:35. | :19:45. | |
:19:45. | :19:48. | ||
in this country is draconian. We have a very clear position in the | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
constitution. What word would you choose? I would not call which | :19:53. | :20:01. | |
draconian. In our constitution, we as a country, the Irish state, | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
values equally the right to life of mothers and babies. That includes | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
unborn babies. There is no distinction or hierarchy. You know | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
better than I do that there are hundreds of women over the past | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
three years alone who have let the Irish Republic to get abortions | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
abroad. Many in the UK. These include 19 rape victims, 21 with | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
severe health problems, more than 20 girls under the age of 16. Does | :20:33. | :20:40. | |
it seem to you write that the way the system works right now, does | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
extremely vulnerable young women all have to go abroad to get | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
abortions? Firstly, I do not know where your information is coming | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
from. I think, from my point of view, speaking from my personal | :20:59. | :21:08. | |
point of view, I feel very strongly that there is virtually, very few | :21:08. | :21:15. | |
circumstances I am aware of where treatment cannot and should not be | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
provided for women who are vulnerable and pregnant. I do not | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
see abortion as a treatment for vulnerable women. It depends, I | :21:25. | :21:32. | |
suppose, on your view on life and unborn children. But I feel very | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
strongly and support strongly our constitutional position, that there | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
is an equal right to life of women and unborn babies. That is | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
something that I think Irish people have held dear for many years. It | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
is something I consider to be worth defending. A final point. A bigger | :21:51. | :21:59. | |
issue. Continuing esteem about where Ireland is going. -- this | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
theme. It seems a lot of young people have lost faith in the | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
notion that Ireland can modernise, can change itself and reform its | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
economy in a way that will give them a positive future. The | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
emigration figures, once again, in Ireland are very tricky. We have | :22:21. | :22:31. | |
:22:31. | :22:32. | ||
had something between 85-87,000 people leaving this country. Why do | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
you believe so many young Irish people are leaving? I think because | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
we do not have the opportunities here for them. So many young Irish | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
people, when they leave university or finish their training or leave | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
second double school, they do not see opportunities here. -- second | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
level. We have gone in such a short, I mean, this has been an enormous | :23:00. | :23:09. | |
shock to the system. Since the beginning of 2008, less than five | :23:09. | :23:17. | |
years from being a country that was growing and dynamic and had huge | :23:17. | :23:24. | |
opportunity, and was job opportunities, opportunities for | :23:24. | :23:32. | |
all sorts of careers and lifestyles. With the prick of a pen, it | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
disappeared and evaporated. That is why we are working so hard to try | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
and gradually rebuild that. I do not think anybody wants to return | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
to the Celtic Tiger sort of economy or society that we had during the | :23:45. | :23:53. | |
period. I genuinely feel that the steps that we have taken might have | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
been difficult and painful, but they are beginning to show results. | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
They are beginning to re-establish opportunities for young people. | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
That is my task in government. That is what we are doing. We are | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
working around the clock, all of our ministers and government, to | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
try and turn around what was essentially a situation of freefall | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
and cut back the foundations so that we can start to build on it | :24:21. | :24:26. |