Father Bernard Lynch HARDtalk

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The Roman Catholic Church has been rocked by not one, but two shock

and surprise resignations. First, Pope Benedict steps down this week

after announcing he is too old and infirm for the office. In Britain's

most senior Catholic, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, resigned after

allegations that he contests over behaviour towards priests 30 years

ago. His departure puts a spotlight on the Catholic Church's attitudes

towards homosexuality. My guest today his father Bernard Lynch, one

of the few openly gay Catholic priests. As cuddles prepared to

elect a new pope, how will the Church recover from this blow at a

Father Bernard Lynch, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much.

to think that the Catholic Church, which does so much good, has been

defined by its stand on sexual behaviour, particularly

homosexuality? I do indeed. I think it is tragic the entire social

justice history of the Church has been collapsed into what amounts to

sexual oppression. Be that of women or lesbian, gay, transgender,

openly gay Catholic priests? You have been a very outspoken advocate

of gay rights within the Catholic Church. Are you not perhaps get

adding to that perception the Roman Catholic Church is just obsessed

with homosexuality? I am still a Catholic and still within the

church, working for justice. There is such injustice. Particularly

towards sexual minorities. My work has been up until very recently

around HIV and Aids. The genesis of my work was during the problems in

Europe city. I was working with an called dignity. We had 1,200

members at the time. In 1982. did a lot of fine work there that

many people have applauded. The point I'm making is that when you

look at the discussions about the resignation of Cardinal Keith

O'Brien, he himself said, looking back over my years of ministry, I

thank God. I apologise to all of my offended.

offended. This man with a long career, maybe 75 years of age,

people will perhaps remember these accusations of improper behaviour.

More than dirty years ago. That is what people remember. It is a pity.

But what answer to that, and this of course is classic oppression,

where somebody who is homosexual. We do not know that. He has

contested the allegations. I find that among my fellow priests that

my greatest support for my work and my advocacy comes from the street

priests. We as gay priests, if we are under classical terminology

according to Pope Benedict, if we are eager reduced on it, if we hate

our homosexuality, we are acceptable as priests. If we accept

and try to live healthy, a bit sell that lives, we are not to be

allowed into the priesthood to begin with. The projection of self-

hatred, the condemnation very often comes from people that may well be

gave themselves. When you had that Cardinal Keith O'Brien had resigned

and there were these allegations against him, in what way do you

think it was significant? How does it sum up what the Catholic Church

represents? It bespeaks a total incongruity in if these allegations

are true, and they were made by priests, four priests. One of them

has married. Once a priest, always a priest as far as I'm concerned.

That is a teaching of the church. If these allegations are true, the

fact that Cardinal Keith O'Brien was so does so for us in his

attitude towards gay marriage, it begs the question. Why do we skip

could engage people? An already long hurt and suffering community.

You just said gay marriage. You are married to Europe gay partner. You

have been happily married to your partner for 15 years. Do you want

to see the Roman Catholic Church except Kimmeridge? I do indeed. --

to gay marriage. You are typical of Cardinal O'Brien because he was not

for gay marriage? He is entitled to say he is not for gay marriage, as

indeed it is any priest a Catholic. But he compared it to the

reintroduction of slavery. I do not being a bit too hard and demanding

too much of the Catholic Church in this regard? Frankly, if you look

at the debate on gay marriage in the UK, we had left hundred done 75

MPs vote against it. -- 475. A similar vote in France. 225 against

gay marriage. A secular state. Islam, orthodox Judaism, there are

a lot of people. Why should the Roman Catholic Church accept

something a lot of people do not? The Church, the church that a lot

and have given my life to, was against democracy, for slavery,

against the vote for women. Does not treat women as equal as far as

I can see in terms of them not been led to be ordained. To me, simply,

if Jesus Christ embodied anything, he is about the quality of people.

You do not have to be Catholic or Christian to know that you raison

d'etre of being a Christian is love and another. You know that 40% of

Catholics live in Latin America. The Catholic Church is very vibrant

in Africa. The sight test for people there, not so much people

like you, a lot of people say that Europeans and North Americans have

too much leadership in the Catholic Church. Around half the cardinal's

voting for the new Pope are European. Their views are different

from euros when it comes to gay marriage. A Nigerian in the

conflict so is that we do not want this. Peter Turkson said the same

thing. Why should your few be accepted by the blast majority of

Catholics? Who taught these people? Who taught the Africans to begin

with? We followed the empire. We indoctrinated them. Not just

homosexuality. There is a lot of homophobia. A does that give you

the right to say to Catholics in Africa and Latin America, we

brought this religion to you and we should tell you how it will

develop? We have no right to dictate anything. But we have the

duty to invite people to look at the gospel. We are followers of

Christ or we are nothing. To say, for example, what did Jesus Christ

say about gay marriage? Nothing. What did Jesus Christ say about

contraception? Even a portion? want to see that debate. When

Cardinal Keith O'Brien resigned, before he was resigned, when he was

talking about marriage between demand and a woman, he said there

was a time when priests got married. It could get dispensed again. He

said he would be happy if others had the opportunity of considering

whether this could get married and raised a family. Will that debate

it reopened in the Catholic Church? it would be a good first step.

and the ordination of women would cure a lot of the pathology around

human sexuality in Roman Catholicism. We are obligated and

we have confused and convoluted priesthood and celibacy. We have,

as a result and consequence, a dialectic of sexuality that is

dehumanising. Most people, women and men, do not have a vocation to

celibacy, to sexual abstinence. They need to express themselves. In

any marriage, gay or straight, the gentle love between people is only

a small percentage of the humanisation of the information

should. But because my fellow priests lack the love and intimacy

that is necessary to be human, many of them unfortunately, as we have

seen, with terrible consequences, mostly on children, engage in

behaviour that is not only un- Christian, but totally inhuman.

has to decouple any actions that would be im would be im

adult priests and does towards priests who abuse children. That is

a different matter. Your position is that if the Church embraces

marriage of clergy, they would be more open to words gay marriage?

would be more open towards all that is human and sexual. Do you not

think that perhaps when cardinals and bishops speak out against

homosexual relations, they are bound to do that with Catholic

doctrine. But when you look at the ground, they are more tolerant. A

German journalist back in the 90s went around Rome posing as a

homosexual and talked to 70 priests. He spoke about speaking to young

priests in gay bars, ostentatiously wearing go dog collars. The

Catholic Church knows about it. Judge them by how they behave.

proof of court is not what we say about God, but who we are. As a

result of our belief in him, the human authenticity and the

religious authenticity are always one. Does my belief in God and my

forewing, my attempt to follow within the limitations of my own

humanity, does that make me more human? Does that make me better

able to relate to you as a woman? Better able to relate to him as a

man? If not, forget about that. you except that the Catholic Church

on the ground is more accepting of homosexual relations than we might

think? You just said openly... I have been in Rome. I

was sent to Rome. Former advocacy rights. I was exiled for one year.

I met these priests. But the Catholic Church can accept and

forgive any kind of sexual activity and cover it up. You were not

forgiven. I was not forgiven. I am not about sexual activity. That is

not what I'm talking about. I am talking about relational love. That

is what the Catholic Church will not forgive. I can go to confession

and confess that I was with 90 partners in the past three weeks. I

can do it absolution. But I cannot go to confession and say to my

priest, Father, I am living with a You became a priest during your

mid-twenties. You went to New York and worked with sufferers of Aids.

You were given support the by the Catholic community to do that work.

In New York, the African missions. It is almost a church within the

Church, my order, have been extraordinarily good and hopeful

and empowering around my work. is an important organisation within

the Catholic Church. It is under Rome and under the local bishop.

What got me into trouble, was that young men with Aids in York in the

1980s were being thrown out of jobs and apartments because they had

Aids. I went to City Hall to advocate for a Bill on behalf of

these men that I was working with they would protect them in their

jobs and housing. The Cardinal was absolutely against it. That was the

beginning of my falling into trouble with the Church. He did not

approve of me safeguarding young gay men. They defrocked you? They

took away my purse. I could no longer earn my living as a priest.

That was my punishment for educating for housing and jobs for

people with Aids. But he continued to work effectively as a priest

although he did not have a licence? That is correct. I continue to work

as a priest. Up till two years ago, with people with HIV and Aids dying.

You moved back to London? I worked as a psychotherapist. I had to give

them, what I had to give them was hope and some kind if Pope when

people were dying. So young that they had not imagined their life,

never mind the death. They needed some hope. Do you feel you

understand the suffering of people more because the were, a practising

Catholic, a devout Catholic, he decided at 17 when he did not know

you were gay to become a priest, it must have been an awful realisation

for you in your twenties that you were homosexuals in a church that

condemned homosexual relations. Why did you stay in a church with that

stand? Because I treasure my faith in God. And the teachings of Jesus

Christ more than anything else in the world. When I had to face the

deaths of so many of my friends from HIV and Aids, people 10 years

younger than me, I was only in my duties, as I said, had nothing to

give them but that fate. I could not prove to them anything but I

could say, I do hope. Hope in got to me is like Santa Clause at a

level without demeaning it. If you believe in Centre calls, he comes.

If he believe in a loving God, something happens with your heart

even if you are suffering and dying. Do you think now that Pope Benedict

and cardinals have attended Vatican to, as Cardinal O'Connor has said

in light of the Keith O'Brien resignation, the Catholic Church

needs reform. It needs a Pope who will work in the collegiate fashion

to try and bring in organisation. We have heard a lot about factional

infighting in the Vatican under Pope Benedict. Is this a historic

moment for the Catholic Church to try to be more consistent with what

many people might say our 21st century values? I would love that.

That would be got on earth if we had that. But just after speaking

about hope I'm not very hopeful. Miracles are always possible, we

did have a John the 23rd he bought in Vatican the third and surprised

everyone. I've grown up in Ireland where to go into a Protestant

church was a mortal sin. All that changed with the stroke of a pen.

That is possible, but we have to be realistic, while we continue to

pray and hope for a better day. DPP will have pointed to the cardinal's

by Pope Benedict and by his predecessor are all people that I

know of made in their own image and likeness. I hope I'm wrong. I hope

they do get a probe that will lead us and the 21st century. Does that

Pope need to draw a line over the sex abuse of children. That is

still dogging several carnivals -- Khan -- heart malls, not

implicating themselves but being criticised for not having acted

quickly enough against abusing priests. That is still something

dogging the church. The only way to draw a line on that in my opinion

as a psychotherapist is to promote a healthy sexuality. You cannot

promote that when everything from contraception to homosexuality is

wrong. The only kind of sexuality that is available to Catholic

people, lay and clerical, his sexuality for the procreation of

children. That would suggest the new Pope would -- you would want is

not the Pope from Africa. We know they have more conservative views.

Who do you think, is there a name that springs to mind? You could

bring somebody in like Archbishop Vincent Nichols. He is not a card

nor yet? Is any body can be bought and. Possibly Father Timothy

Radcliffe. What if we want a brown or Latin-American Pope? It would be

wonderful to have someone who is non- European but someone who will

again, promote asexual ethos that this psychologically sound.

Optional celibacy. Willing priest would, contraception. You do not

think Pope Benedict, will be an alternative sphere of interest to

be asserting Conservative and Fulham's? I do not know that. I

would be surprised if he did not. When the new pope was elected,

depending on his stand on sexuality, would you stay in the Church

regardless of who succeed Pope Benedict? I will die a Catholic.

There is too much were it to be done, their 1200 million. I'm not