Carlos Gutierrez HARDtalk

humanity and ethnic cleansing. Time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to Washington DC. The US is a nation built by immigrants but

immigration is also an issue that has created deep divisions. As the

US Congress prepares to debate a plan to offer a pathway to

citizenship to millions of illegal immigrants, America's Conservatives

face a question. I have a ready to embrace their country's new

demographic reality? -- are they ready? My guest today is Carlos

Slim terriers -- Carlos Gutierrez, a former Republican Secretary of

Commerce. America is changing fast. Why is it that Latinos in the US

seem so turned off by the Republican Party? The party fell

into the trap of reading polls in a very literal way. If you poll

Latinos and you ask what their main concerns are, they will say the

economy, education, healthcare. Immigration would be number five or

number six. Republicans took that to mean that immigration is not

important to Latinos. That they can therefore do things on immigration?

They took a hard line because it was not an issue among US citizens

who happen to be Latinos, Hispanic Americans. The problem is that they

may agree with your tax policy but in the end, if you want to deport

more grandmother -- their grandmother, they will not support

you. The mood was that the party did not support immigrants. We lost

the Asian-American vote by a bigger margin than the Hispanic American

vote. It seems that Asians were also getting that body language and

rhetoric that the GOP is anti- immigration, which I find to be a

tremendous contradiction, a strategic contradiction, because we

are supposed to be the party of prosperity. What was it like being

one of Mitt Romney's che point men for outreach to the letting the

community and then see your own candidate, Mitt Romney, declare at

one point that he believed illegal aliens, and he meant mainly

Hispanics who are currently inside the US, should, to use his words,

self deport and get themselves out of their? It was frustrating. He

said that during the primary and I came inevitably it after that and I

found myself essentially defending or in dispelling that comment. Even

though he moved to the centre, he evolved and started talking about

reform in his first year, I was still answering questions about

self deportation on the day of the election. If I had to pick one of

several things that affected his campaign, it was that. I wish to be

polite about this but it has to be said that you failed. Your job was

to try to ameliorate some of the damage with the Hispanic community

for your party. If we look at the result, 70% of Latinos voted for

Barack Obama. Yes. I accept responsibility. I would say that we

failed miserably. And I would go back to that comment. Self

deportation. Whoever suggested that, whoever advised him of that should

know that this probably cost him the election. Let me ask a blunt

question. Would you acknowledge that there is still racism in the

Republican Party? I do not know. That is a very low did sort of a

situation of a question. I really do not know whether it is a stance

of anti illegal immigration, which I suppose we can understand, we can

debate, you can have it both ways. Or is it and the immigration

period? Is it anti- immigrant? And that is where the Newlands is.

you have a fear that it might be in certain quarters - I am only

suggesting in small corners of the Republican party conservative

movement - but in those quarters, are you concerned that there is a

basic anti-immigrant feeling? I fear that there are some members

of the party who are anti- immigration, which is so flawed if

we are the party of economic growth. It would betray any knowledge of

how the economy works to the anti- immigrant. I also sink there are

some in the party who do not like the idea of illegal immigrants.

Thirdly refer you to a situation in the US that coloured the last

election. That is what was happening in Arizona, when a bunch

of committed Conservative politicians drove through

legislation in the state legislature, which many have

described as the most draconian crackdown on immigrants and

immigration the US has ever seen. Again, how damaging was that to the

Republican Party, nationally? whole thing. Arizona, Alabama, the

comment last week from the representative who said wetbacks. A

comment that another representative made four years ago, who said, why

don't we electrify that friends? Those things drive me crazy. What

do you do about it? We have to call them out and not be quiet about it.

We have this Cibber pack. What is that, we can explain to people

around the world that it is a powerful committee in Washington

with the Congress behind it, that is designed to lobby and change and

reframe the debate. If in simple terms, it is the exercise of

freedom of speech. And unlimited amounts of money, if you can raise

it. Republicans who want to support immigration reform, and there are

many of them, I concerned not about a Democrat challenge, they are not

worried about that, they are worried about a primary challenger

from the right wing. What we want to do is go in and support them and

go up against the candidate from the right. You are defending, if I

can put it to the names of individuals, people like Lindsay

Graham, John McCain... In fact we have run an ad in South Carolina in

support of these people. Because these are supposedly moderate

Republicans on this issue of immigration who stand to get shot

down by, if I can put it this way, the far right inside your own

political party. You are being very frank about what you see as the

problems in Europe and party. Why do you bother staying with the

party? I was born in Cuba. I have a fear of anything that goes to the

left because I know where the far left ends up. (LAUGHS). We are not

suggesting you want to go to the far left, we are suggesting that

you might consider opposition in a party where you have frankly

acknowledged that there are many voices you find personally

offensive. I would rather try to be part of the change because I

believe in the core of the party and the core is free enterprise,

low taxation, less intrusive government. All of those things

that I believe passionately in. know, both of us, that something

very important has happened over the last few days in Washington. On

Capitol Hill, there is a bipartisan proposal for massive immigration

reform, the biggest reform of a generation. It would provide a

pathway for to citizenship for 11 million have also currently illegal

for a UN document and immigrants. Will it pass? It has the best

chance of passing that we have ever had since 1986. I was part of the

2006 bill that failed. It failed because the Democrats shot it down.

I want to be frank. Harry Reid called the Bill. Senator Kennedy,

who was part of them, Senator Kennedy, Senator Carr Island

Senator McCain, he gained Harry Reid to keep that Bill alive for 24

hours. That was all we needed to get the votes to hold it. Some of

the poison pill amendments designed to overthrow the grand bargain, two

of them were introduced by Senator Barack Obama. This is a very

political topics -- topic and my interpretation of events is that

they did not want to risk that it be a Republican President, George W

Bush, who took the credit for this. That, with respect, was then, and

this is now. I wonder if you believe your own party is prepared

to allow this new reform measure to pass. Because there are voices on

the Republican side who are saying that they will use what you call

the poison pill unmanned drones, the time-wasting tactics, to try to

kill this immigration reform. -- the poison pill, the time-wasting

tactics. I do think there are enough Republicans. How big a fight

are you prepared to have with his voices inside your party? We have

to go all the way. We believe in the party, we believe in the

principles and we have got to take these folks on. The Democrats very

cleverly used someone like Stephen came as the spokesperson for the

Republican Party. He does not speak for me and he does not speak for a

lot of Republicans. Let me turn this argument around. If this deal

goes through, if the bipartisan package that has been mooted goes

through, it will tell illegal immigrants that there is a chance

to get a green card and then to get citizenship. But it will take up to

13 years or more for them to actually naturalise and become

citizens. It will cost them $2,000 in fines and fees. They will have

to go through an increase drugs -- incredibly rigorously process of

background checks. That is why it is not an amnesty. Is that

acceptable? Yes. My story is it will be 14 years to get citizenship

for my wife and son. Because of various quirks in the law. I was a

naturalised citizen. Your wife is from? Mexico and my son was born in

Mexico. I had to be you ten years from the date... I understand the

angst of an immigrant. It is every single day. Will I get it? Will

line not? Will I be separated from my family? The bill we had in 2006

was similar. One thing we have always agreed is in the spirit of

fairness, let us not allow people who are undocumented to cut into

the line of people who are waiting to come in. That is something that

most people agree to. Citizenship is something of a red herring

because I think what the UN document it person would want is to

be allowed to be legal tomorrow, let me go home and leave my house

and know I will come back and see my family. Citizenship tends to the

an explosive political issue. I think if we'd hold a undocumented

persons in this country and asked if they would rather we kill this

bill because citizenship may take 15 years, but you will get legal

status very soon, what would you rather do? I think we would see an

overwhelming vote saying just please legalese -- legalise my

status. In 1986 under President Reagan's so cold and misty, and the

41% sought citizenship. -- so- called amnesty. Right now, there is

a to beat about Marco Rubio, the senator from Florida, the darling

of the Tea Party, but a man whom many in the Republican Party

believe could deliver in much better, stronger direction to

Latinos across this country. Is it Surely the party needs to do more

than that. I have respect for Marco. He is clearly a year for the future.

But you are right. It is not as simple as that. We have to be

visible. We have to be in these communities. We have to give

tutorials on how to start a small business. Republican values. My

fear is... You cannot penetrate the party. Take one example. In Texas,

38% of the electorate is already Latino. In Republican grouping, in

the house, do you know how many are too knows they are? In the Texas

House? 3.3 out of 95. We have more in the National House. It is

amazing. That is your problem.We need to engage. This is not going

to happen next year. I would like to say a goal. We have to go out to

get 50% of the Hispanic vote by 2020. What do we need to do to get

there? I think our core message of economic opportunity of upward

mobility will be to government dependence any day. We need to be

there to explain. We needed to convey that they are welcome. Right

now, we -- they feel like we don't welcome them because people make a

great estate month. One final set of thoughts about this. The

demographic of America high extraordinary. It is believed by

2050, they could be as many as 130 million Latinos in America. Close

to half a billion. An extraordinary number. How will that change

America? I think that the interesting thing about America is

that of those people will probably be changed more than the country.

That is the magic of this place. The people come here and become

Americans. What worries me is keeping them isolated. Been clear

to know only communities. This is where I blame the Democrats. --

Latino. They say, let me register you for will fair and 4 cents. They

never get out of there. -- voodoo stems. They never get off the

dependence. Is human nature. If you have a burden at hand, why risk

getting a job? One final thought on this. You have an extraordinary

life story. He moved from Cuba to the US as a EMI. You sold frosted

flakes from the back of a truck in Mexico City. Year ended up running

the entire company. Kellogg's, a company will all know. It strikes

me that when you look at the US today, and you look at all of the

potential and dynamism in countries like Mexico and Brazil, it may be

that your grandchildren will make the reverse move. They may find

economic opportunities in the western hemisphere lies to the

south. Not in the US. We may be ultimately talking about beginnings

of a reverse. Reverse migration. Is that true? There might be some of

that. The future is about a circularity. Which is why the

discussion of citizenship always being the endgame, may not be the

case for 30 years from now. I think what you may find his people who

come to work for two years and go back home, or someone from the US

goes to Mexico for a couple of years then comes back to the US.

All about circularity, having better skills, seeing ourselves as

a region to be more competitive against the rest of the world. That

is very much about the future. We should be seen Bilateral

immigration agreements instead of bilateral, or in addition to

bilateral trade agreements. There is no question that Mexican women

have seven children on average in 1970. 2010, it is 2.4 children.

There will be a time when we don't have Mexican immigration. What the

people miss is that we can't not grey. I'll give you an anecdote. --

cannot. I was talking to an owner of three restaurants the other day.

He said he would have paid if I had the Labor. That is a microcosm of

what is happening throughout the country. We would be growing faster,

creating more jobs for American citizens. This is where I want to

switch focus to other issues facing your Republican Party. You wear be,

Secretary took George W Bush. You were a senior voice. The challenge,

leaving aside wigeon out to the minorities, is also on the economy.

-- reaching a side. A Republican pollster said, Obama beat raw meat

by 11 points on a question of who would do more to help the middle

class. -- Mitt Romney. Republicans were not and are not deemed to be

the party of the middle class. That is the party's biggest obstacle.

There is no question that is one of the party's problems. There was a

specific situation where you had someone who was personally very

rich. He had the President exploiting that very cleverly.

was simply telling the truth. Telling the American public that

Mitt Romney and the party defended maintaining tax cuts to the richest

1% of Americans. It was not defending tax cuts but more that

you cannot tax 1% of the population in order to fix up the deficit.

Packs and small businesses is a bad idea. Either way, I found it very

ironic that the President's tax rate was up 18 food hall -- 18.4 %

which was what he was criticising Mitt Romney force. There is

demagoguery. It works and politics unfortunately. You have entered the

fray in an internal party debate. This is what was said by a former

speechwriter for George W Bush. He said we have to learn from what

happened in 2012. We crank out moderate views up the moderate

Noosa. Bob Dole, John McCain, Mitt Romney. We cannot take anymore

moderate losers. He clearly is arguing for a much more convicted -

- conviction based right wing Conservative Republican leader.

Will that work? No. I believe this country is a centre right country,

or a centre left country. But the American voter rejects extremes.

What Obama's Magic has been is that I believe he is an extreme leftist.

But people believe he is a pragmatist. The American public

does not see Obama as extreme leftist. No, they don't. I believe

that we will look back in a few years and look at the state of the

economy and to realise that these leftist policies did not work.

want to and do this but asking a question which on the specifics of

the immigration debate asked him in the beginning, which is, how hard

are you prepared to fight for the sole of your party? Right now, he

has a window of a couple of years to give -- redefine what the

Republican party is all about. How brittle will that be? -- brutal. We

have to do what it takes. We have to speak up and get into the fight.

We have to call people out. There are so many Republicans but I have

run into who will say, why did we stick to who we are, which is

really, prosperity, the economic call. Let us stop whacking our

finger at people. Let us. Be known for what we are against. Let people

know us for what we are for. I believe that after eight years of

the economic policies, people would be ready for change. We have not