Lindiwe Mazibuko - Leader of the Opposition in the South African Parliament HARDtalk


Lindiwe Mazibuko - Leader of the Opposition in the South African Parliament

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Now on BBC News, it's time for Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Sarah

:00:14.:00:18.

Montague. Archbishop Desmond Tutu has given up on South Africa's

:00:18.:00:25.

ruling party, the ANC. He says he will not be voting for them in next

:00:25.:00:30.

year's elections. But what are the alternatives? The ANC, Nelson

:00:30.:00:33.

Mandela's All Party, have dominated politics and government in South

:00:33.:00:38.

Africa since the end of apartheid nearly 20 years ago. My guest today,

:00:38.:00:41.

Lindiwe Mazibuko, is the parliamentary leader of the largest

:00:41.:00:48.

opposition party, the Freeney. What chance does it really have against

:00:48.:00:52.

the ANC, which is still seen as the natural home for black voters --

:00:52.:01:02.
:01:02.:01:23.

Lindiwe Mazibuko, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much.If

:01:23.:01:30.

getting near government it has to reach out and get support from

:01:30.:01:34.

black voters. And that's where you have struggled so far, isn't it?

:01:34.:01:39.

Absolutely. There's no question that any party in South Africa that

:01:39.:01:42.

aspires to be a government at national level has to be able to

:01:42.:01:46.

attract support from black South Africans. Not only in terms of

:01:46.:01:50.

numbers, but it needs to be on a moral and ethical level a South

:01:50.:01:57.

African party, a party for the people. That is one of our major

:01:57.:02:01.

targets in the run-up to the 2014 election, and it's been one of the

:02:01.:02:05.

goals we have set ourselves, to get to 30% at national level by

:02:05.:02:08.

bringing on significantly more black supporters. One of the

:02:08.:02:12.

problems you have got at the moment is you have got roughly 80 Members

:02:12.:02:18.

of Parliament, and the majority are white. But 9% of the population is

:02:18.:02:22.

white. I mean, my Members of Parliament are from communities all

:02:22.:02:26.

over the country. They are representative of a large number of

:02:26.:02:30.

language groups, a large number of race groups, a large number of

:02:30.:02:34.

communities in every part of the country. But the Democratic

:02:34.:02:38.

Alliance's parliamentary caucus is representative of where we were in

:02:38.:02:44.

2009 at that election. The fact those MPs in 2011 affected me, a

:02:44.:02:47.

33-year-old black South African woman, to lead them, is a

:02:47.:02:51.

representation of how committed they are to the growth and

:02:51.:02:54.

diversification of the party. Looking at the Congress last year,

:02:54.:02:59.

the fact that we marched against the youth wage subsidy in

:02:59.:03:03.

Johannesburg, thousands of black South Africans came out to support

:03:03.:03:06.

the Democratic Alliance. You can see how quickly the party is

:03:06.:03:10.

changing. I don't think our representation four years ago is a

:03:10.:03:16.

representation of now. We're growing at an almost pays. You have

:03:16.:03:26.
:03:26.:03:26.

made a lot of black voters convert to you. We are the biggest party in

:03:26.:03:31.

the opposition among black South African voters. If there was only a

:03:31.:03:35.

black electric in South Africa we would still be the official

:03:35.:03:40.

opposition. -- Black electorates. There's no question that there's a

:03:40.:03:44.

big challenge ahead of us. We're ready for that challenge. Part of

:03:44.:03:49.

that challenge has to make sure with making sure we're a party not

:03:49.:03:54.

only of being black, there's a danger of parties only being about

:03:54.:03:59.

racial nationalism and competing with each other. We need to cast --

:03:59.:04:03.

craft a political policy about diversity and protecting people's

:04:03.:04:06.

rights. You made the point that they elected you as their

:04:06.:04:10.

parliamentary leader, but you will know the Communist Party chief

:04:10.:04:13.

called you a coconut. The suggestion you're black on the

:04:13.:04:18.

outside but White on the inside. political opponents say lots of

:04:18.:04:22.

disgusting, racist, sexist and age is things about me. I don't believe

:04:22.:04:27.

them to be true -- ageist. I don't lie awake at night worrying they

:04:27.:04:32.

have misunderstood a part of my character. What makes my leadership

:04:32.:04:38.

so exciting is that South Africa's a young country. Two-thirds are

:04:38.:04:41.

under 35. The statistician general in the year before last census said

:04:41.:04:46.

the average age of South Africans is 25. Looking at Jacob Zuma, who

:04:46.:04:51.

is in his 70s, we have birthdays a few days apart, he has just turned

:04:51.:04:57.

71 and I've just turned 33, we are much closer to the age of the South

:04:57.:05:02.

African populous. You look at the former president of the ANC's Youth

:05:02.:05:07.

League, he said you were the tea girl of the madam, referring to

:05:07.:05:11.

Helensvale, the party leader. interesting thing about him, he

:05:11.:05:16.

backed the wrong horse in the ANC's policy Conference, so now he's in

:05:16.:05:21.

the political wilderness. How long that will be, we don't know. His

:05:21.:05:25.

brand of politics was based on divisiveness. It was based on the

:05:25.:05:29.

very kind of name-calling that he engaged in when he made reference

:05:29.:05:34.

to mead, racialism, talk about nationalisation -- nationalising

:05:34.:05:38.

minds and strategic interests. The divisions between older and younger

:05:39.:05:43.

South Africans and black and white. He dominated the discourse in youth

:05:43.:05:48.

politics for a long time. Now he has left that vacuum, my party, a

:05:48.:05:51.

modern forward looking political party with a mixed generation of

:05:52.:05:55.

leaders, has the opportunity to capture the imagination of those

:05:55.:05:58.

young people who are living difficult lives. They are suffering

:05:59.:06:02.

from poor education, they are worried about their employment,

:06:02.:06:06.

they want to enter the formal economy. We want to make sure

:06:06.:06:10.

there's a political an affirmative -- political alternative that is

:06:10.:06:15.

not racist and offers them a different future. But you also

:06:15.:06:21.

offer a party that has overwhelmingly the support of the

:06:21.:06:25.

whites in South Africa. People will look at you and think, there are

:06:25.:06:28.

things that you can't do because you will alienate your white

:06:28.:06:33.

supporters. Yes... one of the things we have done in the

:06:33.:06:37.

Democratic Alliance is we have embarked on a campaign. The purpose

:06:37.:06:40.

is to deal with some of the stereotypes around white South

:06:40.:06:44.

Africans in politics, which have led to the implication that if

:06:44.:06:48.

you're a white politician you must have been part of apartheid and you

:06:48.:06:52.

must yearn in your heart for a return to apartheid. It is one of

:06:52.:06:55.

the challenges we have come across when talking to young South

:06:55.:07:03.

Africans, and about supporting cast. We talk about various stories, who

:07:03.:07:08.

are the leaders of our party and helped form our party. They fought

:07:08.:07:12.

in the struggle for liberation. To put paid to this notion that having

:07:12.:07:15.

a political party that has white leaders in its ranks necessarily

:07:15.:07:21.

means those leaders somehow yearn for apartheid. You call this the

:07:21.:07:25.

pre-election campaign... the ANC as Loch Ewe for stealing, for

:07:25.:07:30.

borrowing their credentials in the struggle -- mocked you. They said

:07:30.:07:33.

that you were synonymous with repression and never involved in

:07:33.:07:38.

the liberation of South Africa. That's not true. Part of our

:07:38.:07:41.

campaign has been reflecting on what ANC leaders have said about

:07:41.:07:45.

the struggle. We have made reference to the warm relationship

:07:45.:07:48.

that Helen had with Albert, who wrote to her and told her what a

:07:49.:07:52.

great job she was doing standing up for liberty in Parliament on her

:07:52.:07:57.

own for 13 years. We made reference to comments made by Winnie Mandela

:07:58.:08:01.

and Nelson Mandela about the legacy of our predecessor leaders in the

:08:01.:08:05.

struggle against apartheid. But this is about the past. We are

:08:05.:08:09.

talking about the past because we want voters to know where we come

:08:09.:08:13.

from and not to be afraid all concerned all worried about what it

:08:13.:08:18.

is we want to do in the future. Even your own former leader, Tony

:08:18.:08:22.

Leon, said if you get into a contest about that with the ANC

:08:22.:08:27.

they're going to beat you every time. It's not a contest with the

:08:27.:08:32.

ANC. We want to tell Our Own story and not on the ANC's own terms. The

:08:33.:08:36.

police minister called us agents of apartheid, if we don't respond to

:08:36.:08:41.

that we allowed the ANC to frame our own history. But that is

:08:41.:08:45.

because you came up with the campaign, no you're Democratic

:08:45.:08:51.

Alliance. We can never preside over a situation where the ANC tells our

:08:51.:08:57.

story for us. I was questioning your version. You came up with the

:08:57.:09:01.

story in the campaign. Their own leaders have paid tribute to our

:09:01.:09:05.

leaders' role in the struggle for liberation. If they want to

:09:05.:09:08.

contradict that position they are contradiction members of their own

:09:08.:09:14.

leadership. You want to transcend race, but Archbishop Desmond Tutu

:09:14.:09:18.

describe South Africa as the most unequal society in the world. When

:09:18.:09:22.

people talk about it being an emerging economy and a powerhouse

:09:22.:09:28.

for the Continent... it is usually unequal. Absolutely.And that

:09:28.:09:33.

inequality correlates with a race. Absolutely. When you have a poor

:09:33.:09:37.

black person looking to see which party he could vote for in

:09:37.:09:42.

government, that is most likely to insure that he or she will get a

:09:42.:09:48.

job... it is hard to see why they would go for you, with you're

:09:48.:09:51.

predominantly white support, against the ANC, which is still

:09:51.:09:57.

seem as the Party of Liberation. The party that basically presided

:09:57.:10:02.

over the struggles, and won freedom for blacks in South Africa. It's

:10:02.:10:08.

important when making reference to us to remember that we won 24% of

:10:08.:10:13.

the vote in the last local election. And only 9% of the population is

:10:13.:10:16.

white. Yes, we have white supporters, and we have large

:10:16.:10:21.

numbers of them. But we're no longer a white party. Are you

:10:21.:10:26.

picking up the poor black vote? Before I get to that, it's very

:10:26.:10:29.

important that you recognise how much the Democratic Alliance has

:10:29.:10:34.

changed and how little the label of white party applies to a party that

:10:34.:10:38.

has one in four of all South African voters supporting it. But I

:10:38.:10:42.

agree, inequality is a massive problem. In 18 years in government

:10:42.:10:46.

the ANC has not addressed in a quality, it is at the same high

:10:46.:10:50.

levels it was at when they took office. They have been -- there

:10:50.:10:55.

have been good inroads made into economic policy to address her

:10:55.:11:00.

Westermann questions, but job- creation has not been a success --

:11:01.:11:05.

Investment questions. We're not only an opposition party. We are

:11:05.:11:10.

coming in Cape Town and in 28 other municipalities. -- we are governing.

:11:10.:11:14.

We have a semi federal system of government, so we are implementing

:11:14.:11:20.

policies that do that. In the last quarter, South Africa shed jobs.

:11:20.:11:24.

The only province in the entire country which didn't was the

:11:24.:11:28.

Western Cape, which increase the number of people working by 8,000.

:11:28.:11:33.

You're talking about somebody in Johannesburg that is thinking about,

:11:33.:11:36.

should I vote for this party. One of the things you will know that

:11:36.:11:41.

has been said about you, they look to you, a young black woman leading

:11:41.:11:48.

this party, they see somebody... I have read enough of this... they

:11:48.:11:52.

want a role model. It was one of your own colleagues who apologised

:11:52.:11:56.

for it afterwards, they said, "If you close your eyes and you listen

:11:56.:11:59.

to Lindiwe Mazibuko, when she speaks you would think a white

:11:59.:12:03.

person is talking to you close quite. They after a black role

:12:03.:12:09.

model, talking about the difficulties are the economic

:12:09.:12:13.

situation when your back. One of the big mistakes people make in

:12:13.:12:17.

South Africa is believing that the only people that can attract

:12:17.:12:20.

support from any particular race crude or population group are

:12:20.:12:24.

people that look and sound like that group. It is the mistake the

:12:24.:12:28.

ANC made when they thought simply having a coloured leader

:12:28.:12:31.

campaigning in the Western Cape, coloured South African people would

:12:31.:12:36.

automatically rally behind it. But instead Helen, a white woman of

:12:36.:12:41.

German extraction, who learned to speak Afrikaans, went out into the

:12:41.:12:45.

community in the Western Cape and empathised with, engaged with, and

:12:45.:12:48.

understood the issues close to the members of those communities'

:12:48.:12:58.
:12:58.:12:59.

hearts. What about you? You come from a comfortably-off middle class

:12:59.:13:05.

family, privately educated. You spend time overseas. I presume you

:13:05.:13:09.

are fluent in... I am.But you choose not to speak in that

:13:09.:13:14.

language? I speak in Zulu all the time but this is an English

:13:14.:13:19.

language medium. Do you recognise you haven't reached people, it is

:13:19.:13:22.

the personal thing? It is a recognition of the evening you

:13:23.:13:27.

could be speaking for them, rather than a comfortably off woman

:13:27.:13:32.

leading a white party. I know you object but that's it. It is not

:13:32.:13:37.

that I object but it is that people making those analysis don't engage

:13:37.:13:40.

on any other level. People making that kind of accusation don't

:13:40.:13:49.

listen to me at rallies, on the radio stations, where we engage

:13:49.:13:52.

with members of the community from all walks of life. In the

:13:52.:13:56.

Democratic Alliance we do not expect people only to speak to

:13:56.:13:59.

people looking and sounding like them. Just because I'm black and

:13:59.:14:04.

middle class, I'm not only expected to campaign in middle class areas.

:14:04.:14:09.

How do you see yourself? Are you back first and South African second,

:14:09.:14:13.

or the other way round? I would call myself a black South African

:14:13.:14:19.

young woman. Black comes first? That is the order. Black comes

:14:19.:14:23.

first? Yes. I also acknowledge the right of every South African to

:14:23.:14:29.

choose whatever order they want to order their identified. It is not a

:14:29.:14:33.

group identification system, that is what apartheid was. But thinking

:14:33.:14:37.

about my identity as a political leader, the first thing that comes

:14:37.:14:41.

to me is that I am black. With that be the case for most black South

:14:41.:14:46.

Africans? I don't know, it could be a legacy of apartheid. It could be

:14:47.:14:51.

a function of resources, where you lived or what you did. It was seen

:14:51.:14:56.

as the only important identify at of you as an individual. It's why

:14:56.:14:59.

there's a residual self identification that begins with

:14:59.:15:02.

race in South Africa. We acknowledge that as well. We're not

:15:02.:15:07.

trying to pretend race does not exist. Transcending race is not

:15:07.:15:11.

about acting as though it has no cogency. It is about making sure

:15:11.:15:15.

people can understand that they can trust each other across racial

:15:16.:15:25.
:15:26.:15:28.

It is their desire from people to make his bit more about race? To be

:15:28.:15:34.

more aware of it? Not to be in denial of it all to try to

:15:34.:15:39.

transcended as you often do? It sounds as though you're trying to

:15:39.:15:48.

speak to your white supporters or pacify them. Not at all! It is not

:15:48.:15:53.

about not freaking out. Afrikaner nationalism or black nationalism

:15:53.:15:58.

under a black National Party are equally bad for South Africa.

:15:58.:16:02.

Nationalism is not just bad for one that rescript. The problem with

:16:02.:16:05.

nationalism is that it excludes people and it excludes them on the

:16:05.:16:10.

basis of their race and nothing else. If we are trying to bind the

:16:10.:16:14.

wounds of apartheid, we cannot offer a political Offiah on a

:16:14.:16:18.

national level entirely based on race. We have to tell people that

:16:18.:16:23.

we understand race and that Equality has a colour and we have

:16:23.:16:28.

to address disparities. We must do so together and not separates --

:16:28.:16:32.

separated by groups as apartheid dictated. There had been a tense

:16:32.:16:41.

for your party to try and get the part of Steve Pico who was the

:16:41.:16:44.

father of the Black consciousness Movement, a very significant figure.

:16:44.:16:50.

It failed. She ended up setting up her own political platform. There

:16:50.:16:54.

has been this problem within the divided opposition. And you are

:16:54.:16:59.

never going to be able to take on the ANC unless you work together?

:16:59.:17:04.

Absolutely. When we talk about our electoral calls, entering

:17:04.:17:08.

government in 2019, we are talking about a Coalition. For the first

:17:08.:17:13.

time, we will have a new government when the ANC is pushed below 50%

:17:13.:17:18.

and the opposition can work together. We were engaged with the

:17:18.:17:23.

tractor negotiations with that Dr. All of us in the Democratic allies

:17:23.:17:27.

admire her track record. offered for her to be your leader

:17:27.:17:32.

and changed the name. She declined because she chose a different path.

:17:32.:17:35.

She formed a different political organisation and contested the

:17:36.:17:40.

elections on her own. She said that she would never be caught dead.

:17:40.:17:45.

That was the choice she made in the end. It is her choice. It is a good

:17:45.:17:50.

thing because we have more options for Coalition government. -- never

:17:50.:17:56.

be co-opted. We believe that that we can win in a Coalition and if

:17:56.:18:03.

she is added to the mix, that is another part of the political mix.

:18:03.:18:06.

CROSSTALK. Up if you were a success for an

:18:06.:18:10.

getting her, I imagine that you were approached -- that you

:18:10.:18:14.

approach the Archbishop. I cannot talk about who and who we have not

:18:14.:18:19.

approached. The endorsement of someone like him would be a

:18:19.:18:24.

landfall. For any organisation. I will not talk about why have and I

:18:24.:18:30.

have not approached. We spoke to Patricia, the leader of the

:18:30.:18:33.

Independent Democrats, a trade unionist and hugely admired in

:18:33.:18:37.

South African politics. She merged her political party with hours two

:18:37.:18:43.

years ago and is the mayor of Cape Town. Her great projects for the

:18:43.:18:46.

Democratic Alliance since she became the leader of the party has

:18:47.:18:50.

been to close down the barriers with opposition parties which share

:18:50.:18:55.

the same values but differ on policy matters. This is so that we

:18:55.:19:00.

can make a credible offer to voters. In the event it best not all

:19:00.:19:03.

political parties to share our values agree to that measure, we

:19:03.:19:07.

can still work together in a Coalition. We need to build those

:19:07.:19:12.

relationships. You seem a long way from that. Giving the public

:19:12.:19:17.

conversations that to have had about this. The opposition is

:19:17.:19:21.

seriously divided and it is hard to see work together. The opposition

:19:21.:19:25.

is not divided. I have worked with the opposition in parliament for

:19:25.:19:32.

every year. We have a multi-party opposition Forum. We led a bill to

:19:32.:19:35.

unseat President Jacob Zuma from office because of the crisis he

:19:35.:19:40.

faced in government last year. We opposed to the State Information

:19:41.:19:43.

Bill. We fought for more accountability and more

:19:44.:19:48.

effectiveness in Parliament. We are not divided. We are working

:19:48.:19:51.

together. We had different value sets and different programmes of

:19:51.:19:58.

action. Where we have common cause we come together and work together.

:19:58.:20:02.

We will be enabled to get into Coalition. The government is to

:20:02.:20:09.

work on one thing. A reform. I will report from 1941, a former ANC

:20:09.:20:13.

president. The fundamental basis of all wealth and power is the

:20:13.:20:17.

ownership of land. Without land rights, any race will be doomed to

:20:17.:20:21.

poverty and the lack of life's essential. The reason that the

:20:21.:20:26.

government said, we want to transfer 30% of the land that is

:20:26.:20:31.

owned by whites to blacks and we're talking about apartheid, 87% of the

:20:31.:20:36.

land in South Africa was owned by whites. You agree that ambition?

:20:37.:20:40.

support land reform. It is two parts. There is land restitution,

:20:40.:20:45.

the land from which a black South Africans were dispossessed under

:20:45.:20:50.

forced removals in the 1930s Land Act. And then land reform for its

:20:50.:20:53.

own sake because we need to diversify the economy. The reason

:20:53.:20:57.

that land ownership is skewed is because of economic legislation

:20:57.:21:01.

drafted by the apartheid government which deliberately kept a black

:21:01.:21:07.

people off land. It is absolutely essential... To improve their

:21:07.:21:12.

prospects. The government has said it cannot meet the target by next

:21:12.:21:16.

year. We are talking about radically changing it. Speeding it

:21:16.:21:21.

up. Do you agree with that? think that had we been in

:21:21.:21:26.

government, we would have reached that target. We shall not go over

:21:26.:21:32.

the history. We shall talk about now. The file you is something for

:21:32.:21:38.

which the government must take responsibility. We must speed it up.

:21:38.:21:42.

It is no way near the target. The methodologies have failed. The

:21:42.:21:47.

government needs to do a rethink about how it engages in the reform.

:21:47.:21:50.

There is a national development plan which has a case in point. It

:21:50.:21:57.

is proposed a system of shared ownership will wear black farm

:21:57.:21:59.

workers who have been living and working there for generations are

:21:59.:22:06.

given funding by the government to acquire a share on the farm in

:22:06.:22:16.
:22:16.:22:19.

which they have worked for We have implemented that approach

:22:19.:22:23.

where we govern. The ANC has not engaged in a process of land reform

:22:23.:22:28.

that has taken any innovative ways into account. That is why they have

:22:28.:22:35.

not reached this. You are saying that they could reach the 30%...

:22:35.:22:42.

The talk of expropriation, of going -- of making it just and equitable?

:22:42.:22:47.

It is a constitutional method of land reform and we supported. We

:22:47.:22:54.

are a constitutional party. Willing buyer, willing seller. It is not a

:22:54.:22:59.

seizure of land that is done without the consent... The

:22:59.:23:03.

constitution is very clear about the fact that if land is

:23:03.:23:08.

expropriated, it must be done at market prices. If the two parties

:23:08.:23:11.

cannot reach an agreement, the courts can intervene to set the

:23:11.:23:16.

price and make sure that the deal can go through. We are

:23:16.:23:19.

constitutionalists as a party and we believe that land reform must

:23:19.:23:24.

take place. The ANC does not have to go down the route of a land

:23:24.:23:27.

grabs which is what forced expropriation would imply in order

:23:27.:23:34.

to reach these targets. They will fail to reach the not because they

:23:34.:23:37.

did not be forced appropriation but because they did not do the correct

:23:37.:23:43.

policy. The ANC say they will not do this. One of the reason for so

:23:43.:23:48.

much uncertainty is that the ANC government quite offensively toys

:23:48.:23:53.

with extreme examples of economic intervention. They talk about

:23:53.:23:56.

nationalisation and that kind of policy uncertainty leads investors

:23:56.:24:01.

to wonder whether or not they should bring many into the South

:24:01.:24:06.

African economy. The ANC should not talk about expropriation without

:24:06.:24:11.

compensation. I believe that there is enough social justice room and

:24:11.:24:15.

enough of a social justice mandate in the constitution which compels

:24:15.:24:18.

the government to engage in expropriation for the purposes of

:24:18.:24:22.

land reform but it dictates that that must be done to the principle

:24:22.:24:26.

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