Mo Ibrahim - Chairman of the Mo Ibrahim Foundation HARDtalk

seventeen year old Trayvon Martin. Arm the Democrats have finally

driving African the dinosaurs to extinction? A Prize For African

leadership has been awarded a six times in six years. So you find in

Africa to create and the price. Ibrahim Index of African Governance

suggests things are getting better. Some worry that China's willingness

to lend money no-strings attached is encouraging politicians to

revert to their bad old way. His Mo Ibrahim's challenge being

You said recently that Africa has some wonderful leaders now but we

still haven't dinosaurs - what is the balance across the Continent?

Things are improving. We are not there yet. We have a leadership

deficit, frankly. But things are much later than the 60s, 70s and

80s. We are moving forward but not at the pace I would hope to see.

Marley Democratic of Congo, central Africa Republic, quite a lot of

countries where the quality of leadership and stability still

seems to be lacking? That is true that Africa's 54 countries - we

have problems in the three or four countries. It is much better than

before. We used to have problems in eight or nine countries. The

complex art coming down. The number of failed states is coming down.

We're not out of the woods yet. We are moving forward but we need a

more determined to push. If the number is so small, of the

countries holding Africa back all damaging its reputation, it is

surprising that it Ibrahim and prize's first awarded in 2005 has

only been awarded in a certain number of years, including last

year it was not awarded - 3 is it has been awarded and three is not.

If it is only a minority of political leaders holding it back.

This is a prize for excellence. is not for somebody who has done it

for the job. You need to do an outstanding job. To move the

country dramatically forward. So we are looking for excellence.

Excellence by its nature is hundred -- rare. Excellence for a former

head of government to be democratically elected. Perhaps the

criteria is it too narrow? We have set a high bar. It is not because

you are African that we except those standards. We are setting

high standards for the leaders. Standards which Europe itself

should aspire to. As I said before, look around Europe, in the last six

years, if he were to offer prices for excellence in leadership -

would you find one of four leaders? Nicolas Sarkozy in France, maybe.

Libya, Portugal, Denmark. Gordon Brown? There are lots of people you

could name. We are looking not for just a job done but for real

excellence. In all areas of governance. People they can change

a country. You have said that we have to get out of the assumption

of that leaders are Farrow's. They're human beings. If you have a

price that is so difficult to award, you not encouraging it hagiography

- of these prizes for excellence, exceptional leadership there for

these people are something so special that they have to be

treated in a special way? If you look at how leaders come to power,

in Africa for example, people come to power either fighting the push,

liberation movements, through elections - which is increasingly

happening - we have a various parties etc. To effect a political

change in at that landscape is a matter of time. It takes time for

what we see now, since this new Africa has started to appear - only

a few years ago the landscape changed in Africa, what we're

seeing now is a lot of young people, wonderful young people, starting to

think of politics as something Honourable. Politics used to be a

dirty word, a really dirty work - a politician was someone he did not

trust, second only to... It still remains so. A former banker said

that in 2009, corruption is number one, 2 and 3 in Africa. People like

that wonder how much as sexually change. I just take issues about

that statement about corruption being number one, 2 and 3 in Africa.

Sean is Prussian number one, 2 and 3 in the world. -- corruption.

Africa has not cornered the market in corruption. For every corrupt

African official, there are 20, 30, corrupt Western business people

whatever... That is the difference. The accusation that into many

African countries, even now, there are political leaders who are on

the take. It is a minority now.But they are still there. Of course

they're still there but it is a minority. There is no magic wand

which will change everything overnight. There are still corrupt

people - a smaller number, on a much smaller scale of corruption.

There is a sea-change. The transparency, the social media, the

new technology etc, everybody is starting naked in now. We are under

this harsh light. It is difficult to think of Africa as it was before

and let us be frank, on the issue of corruption, you guys need to do

your work we're doing our work. not here to defend the West for

Europe. Or China or anybody else. The price has not been awarded - it

was not award at last year, a former colleague wrote an article

in which he worked through the list of potential. Zambia is facing

corruption. And so on and someone. The pickings are slim, he says.

Even this year, he was is eligible? Kenya, Robert Mugabe if it loses

the election, he raises the question of whether, again this

year, this price should not be awarded? I am not a member of the

prize committee. This is a question for the prize committee. I have to

be careful, I cannot indulge in naming names because the board

appointed a wonderful committee. You are separate from them. You are

viewed as a private citizen. really cannot undermined what

they're doing. My personal feeling is that it is a very difficult job

because it is not just based on some one which has left a

democratically. It is a prerequisite. By what you have done

in the area of economic development, jobs, education, health, please.

You except it is going to be slim pickings. So what? This is not our

problem. It is a challenge. It is a challenge for the African leaders

to rise to. It is a challenge we are offering to the leaders and

what I believe is that a new generation is coming but it takes

time for them to coming to power and to graduate. It will take time.

You obviously see the prize as one of the incentives for doing that.

For people thought -- who've left office but will come to that in a

moment. In a recent interview you said that what we wanted out of the

prize is the raw attention of government leadership. People

asking why did that and I win and not out guy. Once the civil side

gets hold of the issue, your job as done. Therefore it may be you do

not need the price anymore. I would love to save my money. Maybe it has

had its day. No, I think the view is that the price is important for

a number of reasons. -- prize. Africa it has a bad reputation. We

do not deserve it. We are not perfect, we are not even good, but

we need to present to the world role models different to that.

Everywhere I go, I ask, do you know such-and-such to make these are

three lorries. But people do not know. You mentioned Robert Mugabe

and other people... He left Office so it makes him eligible. They need

to know people not only for bad reasons but for good reasons.

at the first prize holder received it. Someone said, you made millions

of dollars from the sweat and blood of millions of Africans. If you

want to return, their schools, dispensaries that need to be built.

Do not Robert poor Peter to pay rich poor. These leaders are

already wealthy. They are getting $5 million over ten years. $200,000

for life, $200,000 for public activities. They do not actually

have to do anything. Two things to rise. I do not make money out of

the sweat of people. A lot of people tell me, all this thing you

doing with the foundation does much less what Africa than what you're

mobile phones did. They did a wonderful job. I am returning the

money I made back to Africa. It is not a question of robbing. We do

not rock anybody. We are in a business. We never made bribes.

have a well-established reputation for that. The rules to set down for

people who manage a business without even paint facility fees.

That has taken his weight. But the point is, money effectively, you

are giving it to people who frankly do not need it and there are better

ways to improve government in Africa. The answer is simple. All

the money I have would not really solve or riven start to solve the

issues in education, health, Development. What we want to do is

to use resources, revenues - trillions of dollars per year, how

are we spending it? This is the money we need to build schools. It

is how we deliver through good governance to serve people. We

ended up building many, schools and hospitals. That is the intelligent

way to do developments. leadership is in port, why have you

not run for politics? The essence of what we're trying to do is that

it is possible in this well for people to use their money and

effort for no personal benefit. I am not seeking a title. I am not

seeking a job. I'm not seeking anything from anybody. It makes us

credible and genuine. But if I'm doing this in order to run for

President in Sudan or to get a job here of May, that would make me a

cunning, selfish person. It would persuaded to run? Absolutely.Do

you see an analogy to be drawn between cellular phone technology

in where one child can be used simmered fancied by many people

which has set his but the secret of your success and the way African

politics is changing? It is an you concert. One figure you quoted is

that half of the people in Africa alone 19 years of age and they are

armed with my golf finds. This is the new dynamics of Africa. We have

a totally different demography from the world. If you look at the

Olympics in London, I was here, it was wonderful, by the way, all

these competitors - a 64-year-old Japanese. The youngest was a 14-

year-old African. That summarises the situation for Africa. We are a

very young Continent. Do you thank you leaders have grasped that yet?

What we need to focus on now is our young people. We need better

education, better training for our people and to create the jobs for

them. That is what we need to focus People regard the Arab Spring as an

economic story as much as a political one - could that be

repeated below this are Ricky Petterd yes. People called us and

said, we are looking at this and Tunisia is not doing so badly, why

are they having this problem? was number eight and Tunisia number

nine...? We looked at this and found something very strange.

Tunisia was doing very well economic way and doing very well in

human development. They had the best educated people. On the

continent. Literacy is amazing in Tunisia. But the country where

those educated looked around and saw corruption and the lack of

opportunity and the lack of jobs - then you have a major problem. We

published a report and said it to look at the other countries. We

found that North Africa was the region with the most unbalanced

development. On the four legs, economics, education, health, human

development, democracy, the rule of law. If you have this unbalanced

development, it is untenable in the social fabric. All of North Africa

had this problem. One month later, Egypt happened. Tahrir Square. It

shows the instabilities. We say to our colleagues in Africa to watch

out. Interesting new pressures are facing Africa recently. One of the

reasons for the economic development we are seeing is the

relationship with China. There are one million Chinese people living

in Africa. The trade was worth $198 billion last year. Is there enough

transparency in that relationship? No. What is lacking?We really need

China... China is very welcome. We need more friends and more partners

in development. More trade partners as well. China is going through a

learning process, of course. It just came into the world and it is

now a superpower and is throwing its weight around. They need to

understand how it works in Africa. I always joke that we have these

people - the People's Republic of China, let us exercise the people.

We need more engagement between the Chinese and the African people

instead of having this relationship where there is a dictator at the

expense... China must learn. Perhaps Africans have to learn as

well. The governor of that Nigerian central bank wrote in March that it

was time for Africans took wake up to their romance with China. China

takes our primary goods and sells us manufactured ones - the essence

of colonialism. Africa is opening itself up to a new form of

imperialism. In coolers an democracy do not tend to sit

together well. He is one of the most wonderful African thinkers.

Last week, he won the prize of the best central Governor in Africa.

the correct? Duet large extent, I agree with him. We have to be

careful. We need to not go from one ruler to another war we need to be

friendly. Chinese to go from where the West ended, not from where the

West started. There is a learning process and I do not think that it

is that intention or a lack of understanding of what is...

(CROSSTALK). John Kerry, the US Secretary of State was on this

programme back in May. He said that the involvement of some countries

here was not as transparent as the US and can in fact undermine

democracy. He declined to say if he was talking about China but did not

deny it. He said that they need to be thoughtful about the standards

you are living up to because you do not want to lose sovereignty and

that must be the feel for African countries. There is too much of a

willingness that the Chinese will give us money and we do not have to

worry about human rights unlike the Americans and Europeans. Better

stick with them. The reality of this situation impose itself. China

find itself embroiled in the problems in Sudan with the oils.

Workers have been kidnapped. There are problems in other countries.

150 people are missing in Ghana. It is waking up to the reality of what

it means to get involved in Africa. A professor in the African progress

panel said in May that it -- that there is a tendency for African

governments to fall back into old habits. For all of the pressure

that Shoreham fly through the index and the encouragement with the

prize... A la Peter and he's a good friend of mine but that is not

accurate. -- I have loved Peter. The main issues here is that people

need to understand that the rise of civil society in Africa is

irreversible. We now have millions and millions of young people,

everybody carrying them mobile- phone and communicating with us and

taking photographs and organising themselves - it is a different

world in which we live. All of us all bald guys, with the white hair,

if it is not our world. Even balding guys like me. It is true.

It is not our world. It is the young people who are running the

show and they are better educated than us and better connected than

ours and they do not take crap from anybody. President Obama is coming

to Africa later in the month. People may be surprised that it is

at his only second visit to sub- Saharan Africa since he took office.

Given what John Kerry said, are you hoping for more engagement now from

the Americans? I surprised that president Obama has not been here

more frequently? It is very surprising. Both! I am surprised

because the African people are a bit emotional. The Americans think

that Obama is theirs. We think Obama is our boy. I know that he

had problems with birth certificates and stuff like that.

We don't care about birth certificates. He is our son. We

have not seen him around. We think that the question is not about

eight or money. It is a question about engagement. He has a lot to

offer our leaders. Counselling our leaders is important and people who

listen to somebody like Obama. That is what I hope will be engagement

with us in Africa to really go and put his arm around those guys and

tell them, what does it mean to govern well? When he was in Ghana

briefly, he said that the African future was up to Africans. Was the

correct? Of course it is up to Africans. Africa needs friends. I'm

sitting here listening to you and I'm having a good discussion with