General Sher Mohammad Karimi - Head of the Afghan National Army HARDtalk

HARDtalk. International forces are pulling out

of Afghanistan. By the end of next year, they will be gone completely.

I am in Kabul at the headquarters of the new Afghan National Army, which

is taking on the job of keeping the peace here. My guest is the head of

that army, General Sher Mohammad Karimi. Does he think his troops are

General Sher Mohammad Karimi, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.

Thank you for the invitation. your troops keep Afghanistan safe?

I'm positive that they can. They have proved knit the last two

months. Some of the operations will be conducted independently. That is

a good evidence it will work. some comments, in March from General

Dunsfor, who said, they are not ready yet. We are ready. What do we

have? The infrantry forces of the A and A have been really used in

battle, as a test independently and they proved it. Yes, we are still

waiting for a lot of equipment. Maybe what he meant that we are not

ready, he meant which some of the enablers. You see you are aware of

the mobile strike forces that we have. Three battalions already in

the field and the fourth one is coming. The forces we are using

against enemy forces are very, very effective, policing the Army and

they have proved that. We do have a situation where only last week we

had the Taliban attacking the building next door to here, right in

what is meant to be the heart of the safest place in Afghanistan.

see, if you go into the details of that incident, you will be convinced

yourself that that was such a sophisticated attack, with all the

documents they had prepared to deceive all the people guarding.

They will not let me in without checking my documents if they come

to that gate. It was a good lesson for all of us. They were defeated.

You were talking about your fight with the Taliban, yet, at the same

time, there are plans talks with the Taliban. Unfortunately the Taliban

are not alone. There are many individuals, organisations, even

countries supporting the Taliban. We will get on to that in a moment.

You have said in the past this is a fight about ideas, a fight about a

way of life. I wonder if that is your belief about the Taliban,

whether there are any talks that can find some agreement. You see, what I

hear now, after the issues - there is a lot of changes in the voices of

the Taliban. They are talking about democracy,

they are talking about organised Governments. They are talking about

schools. So, maybe they are either changed positively, or maybe they

are still under some kind of pressure from the international

community. Ideally the Taliban are people who

do not believe in democracy, who do not believe in women's rights and so

on. But after too many years of fighting, they may have developed as

well, you know, which is a good well, you know, which is a good

sign. The answer is to bring them into Government? Yes, I have no

objection to that, provided they are not against the constitution,

provided they are not against democracy and they are not against

women's rights in particular. Human rights as a whole, but particularly

women's rights. If you think about how you would bring them into

Government that means ministry, giving them governorships, and

suddenly you have the Taliban controlling parts of the country.

they come in, even if they were running for presidency and they get

all the votes required, I am fully obedient to that leadership F the

people really choose them. This is the main question. The people, if

the people of Afghanistan vote to any of the Taliban to run this

country, through democracy, why not? What support do you think there is

in the country for the Taliban? What percentage would you put it a at?

would not put it at a very high percentage. Give us an idea.It

would be difficult. You have to go district by district and see the

present situation. Even now in the areas where the Taliban are

dominate, people stand against them. And the people are really standing

up to them because they are tired of their atrocities, tired of the

tyrannies, people are people. They cannot afford - they cannot and the

public don't have much support. President Karzai calls them "our

brothers." You often heard disenchanted brothers. It is

interesting, because at one stage you were imprisoned for a year

during the Soviet occasion. -- occupation. And then the Taliban

came along, were you relieved when they came? ? I was relieved before

they came in. During that regime that I was put in jail, they

released me after a year-and-a-half and they were still in power.

hand hurst trained officer, you with were advising... That was a later

stage and this very building where the Taliban took over, they gathered

us, the people who were here because I didn't follow any faction. I did

not follow any factions. I stayed here and they, the Taliban gathered

the officers and said, you are no longer required, if we want any of

you, we will call you. After some time they called me to guide them,

help them on some of the Government issues, particularly and... And how

did you find it? I hadment no option. I had no option because I

lived here with miff family. I was forced to wear a turban, forced to

grow a beard. That was compulsory. Not just for me, for everyone. It

was not a situation of choice and because I had to stay here with my

family, for the sake of my family, I could not resist or object to any of

their wishes to help them. But the thing is, after a while, probably

they found out that I was fm educated. They took after me. I was

lucky enough to get away. And here we are in a situation where there

are prospects of talk wss the Taliban again. I wonder -- prospects

of talks with the Taliban again. I wonder wonder if it is not a

betrayal of women. We want to have negotiations with the Taliban. We

want to share everything with the Taliban, but the question is, the

main question is not just for us for the whole international community,

that there should -- they should agree to agree, to accept the

constitution, because there is nothing in the constitution against

religious, against Islam. Perhaps part of the reason they are getting

support is there are doubts about the Afghan National Army N the words

of ening General Dunsford, hedging behaviour. People don't want to side

with you for fear of when international forces go, you will

not be up to the job. You see, it is up to the leadership to convince the

soldiers, who are to believe, and that is what I am doing. And the

competition is doing? My soldiers know that why they are fighting for.

And this is requested from the politicians as well. I have been

asking from the President all the way down to even the Parliament to

support it. And how do you... support have you got? How to get

support, so to see their training, operation, to see their way of life.

To see their ordeals. You will know the minister for energy and water,

who was one of the most powerful muj what dean commanders in the country

is quoted in a number of places saying there are parts of the

country where Government forces can not operate and there locals should

step forward, take arms and defend the country. Is he right? You see,

yes and no. Is it is right his people... If there is a danger of

attack from outside. Say, if there was an invasion then the Army may

not be sufficient, then you call on the people. It is the honest duty of

every individual to defend their country. In that sense... If it is a

call to arms and be ready. In that sense I agree with him. If we are

only deelting the enemy, that we are -- dealing the enemy that we are

dealing with now, we have the Army and the police. It has to be better

organised, which is organised. We have to improve on that T the rule

of the Army, the rule of the police and use them in a better way.

Therefore there is no need for people... Is he right in saying

there are parts of the country where the Government cannot operate?

Presently, I do not agree there are four districts that are not in the

hand of the Government. And you are witness to them that we liberated

about three or four weeks ago and those four districts will be also

Lieberman rated in time. We have -- liberated in time. We have all

plans. I must admit that the enemy's activities have increased. They have

been told to come and fight in Afghanistan and are ar, very

extended and vast and the majority are massing the Taliban in different

places and that is a, a reason for that is political. The political

reason is, since we have had the Doha and Qatar peace talks, they

would like to have a better position. To have a better position,

they have to increase air attacks... And it will get worse? Probably in

the next two months. OK. Let's talk about the capabilities of the army.

You have said they have been very successful. We had problems with

desession, but the police and the Army are getting -- desertions, but

the police and the Army are getting strong. . I don't have dissergs.

There is a different between AWOL and dissergs. I have never had any

deserted from the battlefield. You are very relaxed about when they

return to work. When they go on leave, when they go home, because of

some of the transportation problems they may be late. Stiemss they make

a decision under fam -- sometimes they make a decision under family

pressure. That is for me... That is not a problem. What do you think is

the big problem? The big problem, right now for me is some of the

enablers. The biggest challenge that I have today, but it may not be

there by 2014 because the plan I have been told, that is going on

means a lot of transportation and helicopters... Air support.The big

problem for me right now, the biggest challenge for me is the lack

of air transportation and air The US is planning to give 40th

Newt aircraft, but you do not have pilots trained to fly them. You as

I do. -- yes I do. From the time the programme has started, I am not

criticising, but it should have started many years ago. It started

late, so the result will be late. To run the Air Force, the

helicopters, up I have got good pilots to run them.

international forces are packing up, everything is being removed, do you

think they should leave everything? I have asked for some of the

equipment. I have said to the Russian community they should leave

some of their equipment because it will be better for them. Some of

the areas, some of the issues, they are thinking that the equipment is

sophisticated and it might be difficult for us to use it.

they are worried they will fall into the wrong hands. Unfortunately,

that is under estimates -- under estimating the Afghan soldiers. I

do not agree with them, but I cannot force them to think

otherwise. There is talk to bring back heavy weapons around the

border. The threat could be anywhere if you do not have enough

equipment or enough support. The enemy has heavy weapons as well.

Up until a couple of years ago there were no thoughts that the

enemy could shoot aircraft. In that case, when the enemy is getting

such equipment from somewhere, I have to have the same kind of

equipment, better equipment, to defend it and think about that. I

will do anything. I will ask anybody, any country, to help. I

will ask NATO to give help. I will try to ask my government to provide

me with some of the equipment. For the army, to solve the problem of

the army, I would do anything I can. To fight the enemy, and I wonder

who you think that enemy is? When you think about the Taliban, you

also think about it being Pakistan? I am trying my best to have good

relations with Pakistan. Is it hard? The question is, whatever

policy they have, they don't honestly trust what I am saying to

them. They still think I may be a threat to them. I am not a threat

to anybody. I'm not a threat to Pakistan or anybody else. Are they

a threat to you? Presently, yes. You see it. The Taliban has been

unleashed to Afghanistan. Is this deliberate policy on the part of

Pakistan? If it is not deliberate, why are they doing it? Is there a

question like that if somebody is doing wrong against you. Do you

think it is a mistake? Can I ask you about the... We have the

Americans funding the Pakistan government and funding Afghanistan.

We have this tension along the border. I wonder what you see is

the way out. I see the way out as the US acting equally on both sides.

Americans are helping Afghanistan in all different ways. I'm talking

about military. If you think about the best help that could be given

to you, would your fight with the Taliban effectively be over if

Pakistan decided to make it so? it would be done in weeks. You see,

right now if Pakistan sincerely tries to help the peace process,

because the Taliban is under their control. The leadership is in

Pakistan. If they put pressure on the leadership or convince them

what they should do, it would help a lot. The role of Pakistan we

cannot deny. Nobody can deny that. It is very important. Pakistan had

influence in the affairs of Afghanistan since 1978. Up until

today, they are involved in the political life of Afghanistan.

talks should be with Pakistan? I have tried. Every meeting has

been on co-operation along the border against the common enemy.

The enemy or the terrorists that are hurting me or are today

suffering through their own creation. Pakistan is suffering

internally from terrorists as much as I do. We can work together to

fight this menace, provided they are all sincere in what they are

doing. There is pressure on the US to stop drone attacks into Pakistan

and of course the strikes elsewhere. Would you like them to stop? The US

has not started drone attacks on their own. Pakistan has to ask. No

country would ever attack another country without some relation.

Whatever they say in public, privately Pakistan is giving it the

nod? Of course they have. They have given permission to the US to

attack the targets of their choice. Pakistan is choosing the target?

They have given a list already. The people have been killed. Why didn't

they attack others? What is the answer to that question? I am

asking you. Drones are used against Taliban who are from Pakistan. They

are never used against Afghan Taliban members. That is one of the

issues when I am saying that the peace to Afghanistan can come if

the US and Pakistan both desire to have peace. Peace is in the hands

of the US and Pakistan in Afghanistan. And Afghanistan. Of

course. Afghanistan is the subject. Let's turn to Robert Bales. This

was the American soldier who has been convicted of killing 16

civilians, attempted murder of more. You investigated it. We learnt

recently that yes he has been convicted but the prosecutors will

not be seeking the death penalty. I wonder how you feel about that.

you talk to those families that lost their children, their wives,

their sisters, their fathers, they should tell you what should be done.

He admits that he doesn't even know why he did it. I saw the children

in the area. The women who were killed, very brutally. I don't

think these people will pardon him. I don't think the people will say

that a life sentence is enough for him. They want the death penalty?

They want the death penalty. years ago international forces came

to this country, not only to make Afghanistan safer but to make the

rest of the world safer. There has been so many tragic stories in the

time, but do you think they have succeeded in that objective? Yes,

in certain ways. By coming to Afghanistan, they defeated the

Taliban, but they did not pursue the Taliban in time. They thought

the Taliban was finished. They thought Al-Qaeda was finished in

Afghanistan. Should they have talked to them ten years ago?

personally talked to many Americans. I said they should not

underestimate the Taliban. They were tactically defeated, but they

will reorganise and they would start fighting again. Nobody seemed

to believe me. Are other countries no safer as a result of what has

been done here? Had this not happened, they may have been a lot

of bomb attacks, terrorist activities in many countries. It

was necessary and has made the world a safer place? It made a

safer place for Afghanistan. The whole world was going in one

direction and Afghanistan was going in another direction. Is that

direction, the direction of democracy and stability, is it

secure now? From my point of view, yes. It is very, very fragile.

Because of the enemy situation, because of what is going to happen

politically after this. If we are clever enough to handle the