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people. -- raids in 76 cities. Now on BBC News it is time for | :00:06. | :00:16. | |
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HARDtalk is on the road in the far west of Alaska, America's frontier | :00:28. | :00:35. | |
state. The fishing community here, big business, and the US federal | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
government, all of them are locked in a bitter argument over | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
environmental sustainability and resource exploitation. The waters | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
off this coast contain one of the world 's great wild salmon | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
fisheries. 100 miles over there is a plan to build one of the world 's | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
biggest copper mines. Can those two forms of resource exploitation | :01:00. | :01:10. | |
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coexist? The answer may do much to Flying inland from Alaska's | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
south-west coast and you see a tapestry of streams, lakes, and | :01:22. | :01:32. | |
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rugged hills. Why old and empty. But for how much longer? The rocker arm | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
that contains huge deposits of copper, along with gold and other | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
precious metals. The mining industry senses an historic opportunity. 11 | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
billion times of copper ore could soon be shovelled out of these | :01:48. | :01:58. | |
hills. The only way into the main right now is by helicopter. When you | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
are in the air like this you get a sense of just how remote this place | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
is. They want to dig the big pit down bad, they also need to build a | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
power station, and develop a road or rail link to the sea so that they | :02:13. | :02:19. | |
can get the copper out. It is a vast undertaking and it will cost many | :02:19. | :02:29. | |
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billions of dollars. John is a mining boss who thinks big. When he | :02:30. | :02:36. | |
scans this landscape he imagines a vast open pit mine, thousands of | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
jobs, tens of billions of dollars profit. It is a world-class copper | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
prospect. There is a significant gold find on | :02:45. | :02:55. | |
:02:55. | :02:56. | ||
top of it. We are looking at a mine that could last up to 100 years. | :02:56. | :03:02. | |
The mining company, a joint-venture between Britain's Anglo-American and | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
Canada's Northern Dynasty minerals, has already done extensive test | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
drilling, not just to chart the mineral deposits, but also to figure | :03:10. | :03:18. | |
out how and where to dump billions of tonnes of waste or tailings. | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
There is a lot of waste. The waste is essentially dirt. People think of | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
waste and they think it is toxic or poison. | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
It is toxic do. You cannot allow it to enter the ecosystem. | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
It does have to have long-term monitoring, there is no question | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
about that. Mining companies did not used to do that. We will not only | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
have to monitor but we will have to put up a large cash bond in the | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
hundreds of millions of dollars, so that even if we are not here there | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
is the capacity to continue the monitoring. | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
This is where the headwaters from the proposed mine site and up, | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
Bristol Bay. Every summer vast numbers of salmon swim through these | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
waters from the Pacific Ocean, heading to the lakes and streams | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
where their lives began. It is one of the richest fisheries on the | :04:15. | :04:22. | |
planet. There is no other fishery quite like this anywhere in the | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
world. There are hundreds of fishing boats down below me, all of them | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
with their nets out pulling in thousands of wild salmon. 30 million | :04:33. | :04:43. | |
salmon converge on these waters are just three or four weeks every year. | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
Local Inuit fishermen are joined by a fleet of boats from Oregon and | :04:46. | :04:53. | |
Washington state. On a good day, they can haul in 2 million salmon | :04:54. | :05:01. | |
between them. The fishermen now fear the delicate balance between man and | :05:01. | :05:10. | |
fish is threatened by the planned for a huge mine in their backyard. | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
Robin Samuelson, welcome to HARDtalk. What is it about the | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
Liberal mine project that has got you and so many people in this | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
community so worked up? It is those tailing ponds that they | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
are planning on constructing, two miles x six miles x 300 feet high. | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
If one of those breaks we are history. Bristol Bay will no longer | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
be Bristol Bay. We have a culture that has been dependent on salmon | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
since God created salmon and man and we are not willing to risk it. | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
Would your grandchildren rather be out in the cold and in all weathers | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
fishing or would they rather have a well-paid job on a mine that will | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
probably last for the next 75 to 100 years. If my grandchildren were here | :06:00. | :06:09. | |
they would say they would rather be fishing. Salmon is a billion-dollar | :06:09. | :06:16. | |
business in Bristol Bay. The ocean beauty canning and processing plants | :06:16. | :06:24. | |
can handle tens of thousands of fish every day. These may be wild salmon, | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
but it is extraordinary how industrialise this production | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
process has become. There are 350 workers in its plans. They are | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
producing salmon for the freezer, canned salmon as well, when all of | :06:38. | :06:47. | |
these fish leave this factory they will be worth an awful lot of money. | :06:47. | :06:56. | |
Salmon is the mainstay of the local economy. In all, roughly 14,000 | :06:56. | :07:05. | |
livelihoods depend on the Bristol Bay fishery. Salmon is at the heart | :07:05. | :07:12. | |
of the history and the culture of the small riverside town. How else | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
do we tell salmon apart? One way to tell them is the eyeball. This Inuit | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
community leader runs a summer camp teaching local children how to gut | :07:22. | :07:32. | |
:07:32. | :07:33. | ||
and smoky fish. Subsistence fishing has been the cornerstone of | :07:33. | :07:42. | |
indigenous light here for millennia. The vast majority of tribal | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
organisations in the Bristol Bay region have now joined the campaign | :07:45. | :07:55. | |
:07:55. | :07:56. | ||
against the project. Kim Williams, welcome to HARDtalk. Tell me how | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
important the fish are to your community and your culture. For us | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
it is part of who we are. It is our identity as Alaskan native | :08:06. | :08:13. | |
people. If we did not have it, I cannot imagine not having it. | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
you not see the big picture. The mine could bring to this region | :08:19. | :08:29. | |
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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 178 seconds | :08:29. | :11:27. | |
at unprecedented economic growth. project? I ?I ? project? I of th | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
leaders getting caught up with the propaganda. They are not finding out | :11:32. | :11:39. | |
more on their own. They say the same about you. That you are not doing a | :11:39. | :11:47. | |
project. We are doing the best we can with the facts based on science, | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
not based on fear mongering. Because of the presence of the mine project | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
there is a danger that communities around here are being torn apart. | :11:55. | :12:02. | |
How worried are you about that? communities that are close, there | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
was no connection before with us either culturally or traditionally. | :12:05. | :12:12. | |
We do not even know them. You make it sound that when it comes to this | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
project it is every man, woman, and tried for themselves. If you can get | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
some are gathered that it is great, and if you cut you will probably | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
oppose it. Is it the way it has become? The way I see it, because we | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
are so open-minded to business why are we such bad people? Because we | :12:29. | :12:39. | |
want to survive why is that bad? Alaska is wilder and more | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
untarnished than any other corner of the US. The State prides itself on | :12:44. | :12:53. | |
its natural wonders. Aren't tainted waters, a magical wild salmon | :12:53. | :13:01. | |
migration and dramatic intervention from fearsome predators. It all | :13:01. | :13:10. | |
makes for a seductive image of an ecosystem in harmony. The headwaters | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
of the Bristol Bay, filled with salmon every year are a key part of | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
Alaska's wilderness story and one which the state can ill afford to | :13:19. | :13:27. | |
taint. The likely impact of the proposed mine, on these waters and | :13:27. | :13:34. | |
the fish, is now under scientific scrutiny. Daniel Schindler, welcome | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
to HARDtalk. You have spent the best part of 17 years working on Aquatic | :13:39. | :13:47. | |
Centre degree search in this Bristol Bay drainage area. How unique is | :13:47. | :13:53. | |
this ecosystem? It is unique in a variety of ways. | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
One is the sheer vastness of it. The landscape is still undeveloped from | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
the perspective of hydro dams and the lack of hatcheries to produce | :14:06. | :14:12. | |
each -- to produce fish. Those type of disturbances do not exist here | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
and Bristol Bay. In terms of salmon, it is one of the most productive | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
landscapes in the world. We are looking at the potential | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
impact of a vast industrial project and they do not have a concrete | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
plan, but we have a pretty clear idea of what the scale of Coppermine | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
they are talking about would involve. Watched you believe the | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
main challenges are for them to overcome to get the commissions for | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
this to go ahead? We know the ways that we produce | :14:43. | :14:51. | |
will have to be contained, for centuries is not millennia. We know | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
that water moves freely across this landscape. There is a lot of | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
precipitation here, rain and snow. We navy surface is covered in gravel | :14:59. | :15:05. | |
which is why it salmon have been so productive, because there is lots of | :15:05. | :15:14. | |
habitat. Those issues may contain a huge challenge. The company insist | :15:14. | :15:21. | |
that the way they are going to manage it is going to ensure that | :15:21. | :15:31. | |
:15:31. | :15:40. | ||
waste does not end up in a drainage system. In a place that has extreme | :15:40. | :15:47. | |
changes in climate, history has told us that waste of this scale is very | :15:47. | :15:57. | |
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difficult. Pebble mine has become the most controversial kind -- | :16:02. | :16:09. | |
controversial of its kind in Alaskan history. There is a fundamental | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
clash of interest here. You want to exploit it. You also know that we | :16:15. | :16:23. | |
sit right now in the watershed area of one of the most important, indeed | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
unique, wild fisheries in the whole of the world. I don't know how much | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
of a threat we are considering the size of the ecosystem. We are very | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
small piece of that ecosystem. It is a very important to Sharia. If we | :16:40. | :16:50. | |
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can prove that we can coexist. -- very important fishery. You are part | :16:54. | :17:01. | |
of a very big international conglomerate. There are shareholders | :17:01. | :17:08. | |
want you to deliver them vast profits. Tens of billions of dollars | :17:08. | :17:16. | |
to your backers. That is what this is about. Let's not mince words. | :17:16. | :17:25. | |
Yes, but it is also about enhancing the environment. In the past, you | :17:25. | :17:34. | |
can have example of example of how a mining companies have done that. It | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
is not in the best interests of companies to do that because it cost | :17:38. | :17:47. | |
money in the long run. One of the leading experts on mining in the | :17:47. | :17:55. | |
US, she says, it frankly there is no such thing as a no risk a minor. To | :17:55. | :18:05. | |
:18:05. | :18:14. | ||
you accept that? -- do you except that? -- yes. Then why would you | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
contemplate taking such risks in such a unique environment? This | :18:21. | :18:30. | |
environment exists over a huge area. This watershed runs into the Bristol | :18:30. | :18:40. | |
Bay area, which is one of the world 's greatest salmon areas. Period. | :18:40. | :18:48. | |
Even if it all escapes, which is not possible, it would not destroy the | :18:48. | :18:55. | |
fishery. It just wouldn't. Why do you think the overwhelming majority | :18:55. | :19:04. | |
of people in this region are opposed to your mine plan? They have ears. | :19:04. | :19:14. | |
:19:14. | :19:15. | ||
And those fears are legitimate about what the mind might do. We have a | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
very high responsibility to show people that were not going to do | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
what they're afraid of. We'll would be able to do that? I don't know. -- | :19:22. | :19:31. | |
will we be able to? Give me a ballpark figure of how much that | :19:31. | :19:39. | |
would be worth to your company. total in place value that people | :19:39. | :19:49. | |
:19:49. | :19:54. | ||
have talked about is in the 300 range. -- 300 to 500 billion dollar | :19:54. | :20:04. | |
:20:04. | :20:07. | ||
range. So you're talking at about a half $1 trillion? In order to build | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
a mine in a place like this, you need a big resource. That's what | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
gives you the opportunity spends the money you need to spend to protect | :20:17. | :20:27. | |
:20:27. | :20:31. | ||
the environment. Thank you for being on HARDtalk. Anchorage, Alaska's | :20:31. | :20:39. | |
business hub. This city and the entire state has been built on | :20:39. | :20:48. | |
resource exploitation. The mineral potential is vast. The State's laws | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
and politicians have long been hugely sympathetic to the extraction | :20:52. | :21:02. | |
:21:02. | :21:12. | ||
industries. The State may not get the final say. If the Federal | :21:12. | :21:21. | |
government about to pull the plug on the proposed mine? Dennis McLaren, | :21:21. | :21:30. | |
welcome to HARDtalk. Simple question, yes or no. Do you believe | :21:30. | :21:40. | |
it is possible to develop a mine of the size that Pebble is talking | :21:40. | :21:47. | |
about without having a damaging impact on the fishery? We know with | :21:47. | :21:57. | |
:21:57. | :21:58. | ||
a certainty that this will have an impact. You mean damaging ones?Yes, | :21:58. | :22:08. | |
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damaging ones. Then your answer is no. The mining component will say | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
that they can do mitigating projects that will compensate for the damage | :22:12. | :22:22. | |
that is created. You say up to 80 miles of streams lost. These are | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
real changes to the ecosystem. Why not be upfront with me and say, it's | :22:28. | :22:36. | |
time to get real. This mind cannot go ahead without fundamentally | :22:36. | :22:46. | |
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compromising one of America's most unique ecosystems. -- this mine. | :22:52. | :22:59. | |
have used that authority very sparingly over the past years. | :22:59. | :23:08. | |
concrete plan been submitted? has been used. Overall, we use that | :23:08. | :23:16. | |
authority very cautiously and very sparingly. This is one of the last, | :23:16. | :23:22. | |
best places. We want to take a very considered look at whether it is | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
appropriate to use that authority. Whether it is appropriate to wait | :23:26. | :23:34. | |
for a final mining plan. We need to look at the science, make sure we | :23:34. | :23:42. | |
understand. Look at the modern mining practices. And then decide | :23:42. | :23:50. | |
what our next steps are. We have not made a decision is yet. It is | :23:51. | :23:58. | |
technically your decision. I wonder, it is so big and so | :23:58. | :24:06. | |
important, it would go to Washington? I don't know. It would | :24:06. | :24:16. | |
go to the highest levels of EPA. Bristol Bay this year 's salmon run | :24:16. | :24:23. |