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suggest the NSA and GCHQ made joint efforts to gather intelligence. Now | :00:00. | :00:04. | |
on BBC News, it is the Italian Prime Minister Enrico Letta in HARDtalk. | :00:04. | :00:11. | |
Today, HARDtalk is on the shores of Lake Como in northern Italy at the | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
annual gathering of the Ambra said the forum of international | :00:17. | :00:18. | |
policymakers. My guest the forum of international | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
five months into the job, he faces a five months into the job, he faces | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
keep his Coalition government series of tough challenges. Can he | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
together? Can he dragged Italy out together? Can he dragged Italy out | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
of its economic malaise? And on Syria, can he come up with a | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
coherent response to the possibility of US military strikes? —— and he | :00:40. | :01:08. | |
Prime Minister Henry K letter, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you —— | :01:08. | :01:15. | |
Enrico Letta. I want to begin by talking about Syria. You have just | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
returned from the G20 summit in St Petersburg, miraculously it seems | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
both President Obama and President Putin came away believing that Italy | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
was on their side. How on earth could that happen? We signed the | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
document presented by and discussed by many countries, European | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
countries, Australia, countries, Australia, Canada, | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
Korea, Japan, United States of course. Because we think it is to | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
give a big reaction, a very clear reaction to what happened on the | :01:47. | :01:54. | |
21st of August. And so it was clear from my point of view that Italy was | :01:54. | :02:02. | |
on this side. Sorry, already I'm not entirely clear. When you say Italy | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
is on this site, you mean the side of President Obama, who clearly says | :02:06. | :02:12. | |
a red line has been crossed, that Assad can be regarded as culpable | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
for the chemical gas attack, and that there must be some sort of | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
military response. Is that the side you're on? No, because the document | :02:22. | :02:29. | |
we signed is very clear in saying we condemn what happened, and we think | :02:29. | :02:29. | |
that the countries like France, the that the countries like France, the | :02:29. | :02:39. | |
United States, and the other countries who want to rain forced on | :02:39. | :02:39. | |
this condemnation, can do that incoherence with the United Nations | :02:39. | :02:51. | |
procedure. This is what we want without UN authorisation, because | :02:51. | :02:52. | |
do. But they say they they say, I want to quote the | :02:52. | :03:01. | |
document? I documentave written it down, the document that | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
you have put your name to says, " The UN security council remains | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
for endless processes that only lead for endless | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
document doesn't mention any to more suffering in Syria". But the | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
document doesn't mention any military action if you have read the | :03:19. | :03:20. | |
document. You're not document. You're not taking | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
seriously the point about the UN security council being paralysed and | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
the world cannot wait for endless processes. You're saying the world | :03:29. | :03:37. | |
can wait? What are you saying?We want exactly to say that the United | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
Nations can not be a power without sanctions. So we want there, and | :03:43. | :03:50. | |
this is the position of other countries, Japan, Spain, and other | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
countries, to sign this document. We want to support a big initiative to | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
avoid the fact that the United Nations is without a response. This | :04:01. | :04:08. | |
is, if I may say so, a fudge. It is a fudge because you know that your | :04:08. | :04:15. | |
own people would not support Italy lining up with the United States | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
making a military intervention. I know very well that Italy has a | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
clear framework, clear framework, clear legal | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
a participant to an initiativent to a participant to an initiative. We | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
a participant to an initiativent to need the UN authorisation. We are in | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
Afghanistan with the United Nations, Afghanistan with the United Nations, | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
we were in Lebanon with the UN and so on. This is for Italian | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
participation. I want to be very close to my parliament and with | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
parliament I know I can condemn what parliament I know I can condemn | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
happened. We can give the support to happened. We can give the support to | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
the initiative of Then what will happen later on will | :04:55. | :05:04. | |
be of course discussed in a second moment. I don't want to take up too | :05:04. | :05:05. | |
much time with Syria. moment. I don't want to take up too | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
much time w? I much time w much time with Syria. It's | :05:07. | :05:08. | |
important. It's very important, important. It's very important, so | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
briefly answer these follow up questions. We saw in the Libya | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
operation that Italy bases, its military facilities, to | :05:15. | :05:16. | |
bases, its military facilities, the U.S.—led attacks on Libya. Are | :05:16. | :05:27. | |
you saying that without specific UN Security Council authorisation | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
there's no chance of Italy lending that kind of support to a U.S.—led | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
operation in Syria? It is absolutely clear that without UN authorisation | :05:36. | :05:46. | |
our proactive participation would be impossible. It depends on what does | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
it mean. It's very clear. Okay. it mean. It's very clear. Okay. One | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
other thing, you've just come back from the G20, you had time to | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
reflect on it, I just wonder what you think Barack Obama, and maybe | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
President Putin as well, handle this President Putin as well, handle this | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
real real difference, fundamental | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
difference over what to do on Syria, and how to address the UN security | :06:08. | :06:16. | |
council element of this story. It's very clear that the Syrian situation | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
reasons. Because there is an reasons. Because there is an | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
unbalanced situation there, it is not very clear what does it mean the | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
opposition there, the opposition to the Bashar al—Assad regime. There's | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
the experience from what happened in Libya and in other Arab Spring | :06:36. | :06:37. | |
countries. It is not easy there, countries. It is not easy there, it | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
is not black and white, the is not black and white, the | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
situation. Do you think Obama has handled it well? I follow him | :06:48. | :06:56. | |
because I think that the European Union and the United States needs to | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
stay together. We need to avoid stay together. We need to avoid a | :07:00. | :07:10. | |
or in other periods of our recent or in | :07:10. | :07:18. | |
real is the risk of a division real is the risk of a division | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
between the United States and most of Europe on this issue? After the | :07:22. | :07:30. | |
discussion we had, the risk, in my discussion we had, the risk, in my | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
view, is lower, because we created a framework of general consensus on | :07:34. | :07:41. | |
some points. Then each country will take his own responsibility. But we | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
created the conditions to avoid a created the conditions to avoid a | :07:44. | :07:54. | |
fight, a collapse between Europeans and the United States. This is why I | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
signed. This is why I think I am satisfied. Let me talk about Europe | :08:00. | :08:01. | |
now, we have talked now, we have talked about the | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
European powers and their stances on Syria, and clearly they have been | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
divided. France and Germany still significantly divided. Isn't this | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
just another example, and we have seen it through the sovereign debt | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
crisis as well, of where Europe talks about unity, talks about | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
collective action, but repeatedly fails to deliver. Yes. Of course. | :08:24. | :08:35. | |
The division we had in St Petersburg is another division of a long list | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
of divisions. Europe isn't working, is it? Europe has a lot of | :08:39. | :08:47. | |
problems. When there are sudden decisions to take we have a | :08:47. | :08:56. | |
decision—making process that is, in my view, to complex with a timetable | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
that is too long. You mentioned that is too long. You mentioned the | :09:01. | :09:09. | |
sovereign debt crisis, we took something like | :09:09. | :09:10. | |
sovereign debt crisis, we took something l? I something l | :09:10. | :09:11. | |
sovereign debt crisis, we took something like 30 summits before | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
Council said whatever it takes. The arriving to | :09:15. | :09:23. | |
Council said whatever it takes. The ECB would intervene and do whatever | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
it takes to stem the crisis. That is the first moment when we started to | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
It seems to me, let's talk more about the economic situation, the | :09:32. | :09:41. | |
feeling we have seen in the last few feeling we have seen in the last few | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
months that the Eurozone debt crisis is through the worst, that things | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
are getting better, it is very complacent. If we look at you in | :09:48. | :09:55. | |
Italy, your economy is in desperate shape. Your national debt is the | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
only to the United States and Japan in terms of its overall size, and in | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
terms of the relationship to GDP, it is 130% of your GDP. euro2 trillion! | :10:06. | :10:18. | |
Italy is drowning in debt. It is fundamentally damaging this country | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
and its future prospects. No, it is not like that. It is not in a | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
desperate shape, I'm so sorry, but it is not like you said. For many | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
reasons. The first reason, the debt, yes we have a big debt, but all | :10:32. | :10:39. | |
European debts raised in the five years of crisis, the Italian debt | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
was big, very big, but it was the debt increasing in the lowest level | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
in comparison with all the other debt in the European crisis. But Mr | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
prime minister, senior economist like the former chief economist at | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
the IMF, Simon the IMF, Simon Johnson, said | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
fundamentally when it comes to economic governance, when it comes | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
to levels of corruption, when it comes to th? I comes to th | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
to levels of corruption, when it comes to the failures of the legal | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
system and the costs that imposes on the country, and the need for | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
structural reform to get the private sector moving, Italy is almost as | :11:16. | :11:17. | |
bad as Greece. And undertake structural reform, you | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
will not be able to tackle Italy 's problems. We had and we applied | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
will not be able to tackle Italy 's best pension reform in Europe. Today | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
we have a pension reform with the raising of | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
retirement from 60, to 67 years old. So we have a | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
welfare. Be sustainable welfare is welfare. Be sustainable welfare is | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
pension reform, it was one of the pension reform, it was | :11:50. | :11:58. | |
why I'm optimistic for the future. why I'm optimistic for the future. | :11:58. | :12:05. | |
Our fiscal consolidation is good. The European Union said yes to the | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
exit from the procedure deficit. The primary surplus is | :12:08. | :12:16. | |
good. And at the end of the year growth will start again. You make it | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
sound very rosy, this is what the mark from Moody 's, a senior credit | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
officer at Moody 's said just four months ago, he said we cannot rule | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
out that Italy will end up asking for help from the ECB and the | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
instability?I ? instabilitye you instability fund. Are you saying to | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
instability?I ? instabilitye you me that you can roll it out? There's | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
no way in your view that Italy will never need any emergency help? We | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
don't need any emergency help, we are doing our homework. At the last | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
G20, we wrote in the papers that Italy's structural reforms were well | :12:54. | :13:00. | |
and very well applied. Of course, we need growth, and we are... With the | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
reforms we are doing we are reaching growth. And of course we have from | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
the past a big debt. You sure do.I know. You sure do.We have to tackle | :13:13. | :13:21. | |
these problems, and we are. One interesting specific, I want to get | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
to politics, the way in which you, for all your commitments to reform | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
and economic growth, are hamstrung by the nature of the Coalition that | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
you lead. You cannot govern without the support of Silvio Berlusconi and | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
his right of centre his right of centre political | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
they would only support you, movement. They were adamant that | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
they would only support you, continue to support you, if you | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
withdrew a significant property tax continue to support you, if you | :13:49. | :13:50. | |
because they said it was completely because they said it was completely | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
unfair, it was unacceptable. In the end you had to bow to their | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
pressure, despite your drive to austerity and to drive down the | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
budget and tackle the estate tax, the reforms were | :13:59. | :14:07. | |
need to be politically strong. discussed and approved two weeks | :14:08. | :14:22. | |
situations for the next year. situations for the next year. | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
Everybody in the Coalition agreed on that. But you had no choice.It is a | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
reform, I would say, it is a reform, I would say, it is a | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
compromise. Berlusconi's party held a gun to your head and said it is | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
either our way... We reached a compromise. You may call it a | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
compromise but my wider point is about your relationship with | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
Berlusconi and his party, and it matters right now because this | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
coming week the Senate in Italy coming week the Senate in Italy will | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
decide, or at least begin decide, or at least begin the | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
process of deciding, whether to expel Mr Berlusconi as a result of | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
his conviction on fraud charges at his conviction on fraud charges at | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
the beginning of August. Be clear with me, Mr Prime Minister, do you | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
believe Berlusconi must be expelled from the Senate? I believe that the | :15:12. | :15:24. | |
law has to be applied. Not a responsibility of my government, I | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
don't have to take any decisions on that. There is a separation of | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
power. You say, it's not power. You say, it's not my | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
problem? It most certainly will problem? It most certainly will be | :15:34. | :15:42. | |
your problem. Leave the Coalition is Berlusconi is expelled from the | :15:42. | :15:50. | |
Senate. I think they will not leave the Coalition. You think they are | :15:50. | :15:51. | |
bluffing? I don't know. I don't know bluffing? I don't know. I don't | :15:51. | :15:58. | |
discussions. Sure that the what will happen with internal | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
discussions. Sure that the government will continue. Put it | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
this this way, because Berlusconi is such | :16:08. | :16:16. | |
a symbol of how Italy is being run for the last ten or 15 years, the | :16:16. | :16:31. | |
other day, Berlusconi's departure is as necessary as it is overdue. You | :16:31. | :16:41. | |
with that? —— do you agree. You think he has to be removed from | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
Italian politics? I work Italian politics? I work for | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
reforms, I work for reforms. I am sure that it is | :16:48. | :16:58. | |
necessary to apply those rules in Italy. Why won't you give me a | :16:58. | :17:05. | |
straight answer? Is it because you are still a little bit scared of | :17:05. | :17:06. | |
Berlusconi? No. This is my job. Berlusconi? No. This is my job. I | :17:06. | :17:16. | |
will be very much concentrated on that. I want to ask you a few more | :17:16. | :17:24. | |
specific point about reform. One of the very important symbols you made | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
when he came into power was two point Italy's first black Minister. | :17:30. | :17:38. | |
She has had a very tough time. She has had bananas thrown at her at | :17:38. | :17:45. | |
rallies. She has had the Deputy Speaker of the Senate say that every | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
time he looks at her he thinks of an orang—utan . How are you going to | :17:50. | :18:00. | |
eliminate that sort of shocking racism from Italian political | :18:00. | :18:08. | |
culture? More and more convinced to have taken the right decision. A | :18:08. | :18:16. | |
integration, we are demonstrating black Minister, Minister for | :18:16. | :18:24. | |
integration, we are demonstrating that the country has under the | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
the table. I want to know why you as is their existing. With | :18:27. | :18:47. | |
the table. I want to know why you as Prime Minister have not done your | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
level best to ensure that he is removed from office? I asked for the | :18:52. | :19:02. | |
resignation. The only way to have the Speaker or the Deputy Speaker of | :19:02. | :19:12. | |
the Parliament, the only way is the Parliament, the only way is the | :19:12. | :19:19. | |
resignation, it is impossible to vote against. One local official | :19:19. | :19:31. | |
said why does no one rape are so she can understand what victims feel? | :19:31. | :19:38. | |
Sentenced by the justice. It is not Sentenced by the justice. It is not | :19:38. | :19:46. | |
an easy job, due no. I am Sentenced by the justice. It is not | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
an easy job? I an easy jobing an easy job, due no. I am getting | :19:50. | :19:57. | |
that impression. You said your mission was to bring morals to | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
Italian public life, our public life Italian public life, our public life | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
which you said which you said urgently needs | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
structural economic reform, how long structural economic reform, how long | :20:10. | :20:11. | |
is it going to take you to root out structural economic reform, how long | :20:11. | :20:20. | |
the Malays that you see in your country and bring morality and | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
nourishment to this country? One reform is already applied two months | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
much corruption is a consequention i ago. For civil justice. | :20:29. | :21:02. | |
much corruption is a consequention i that. I decided to cut for instance | :21:02. | :21:03. | |
the salary of the ministers and the the salary of the ministers and the | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
Prime Minister. We the salary of the ministers and the | :21:05. | :21:13. | |
Prime Minis? I Prime Minis the salary of the ministers and the | :21:13. | :21:13. | |
Prime Minister. We decided to avoid the double salary that we had. | :21:13. | :21:19. | |
the big reform of the public the big reform of th? I the big | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
the big reform of the public finance... That was one of the | :21:24. | :21:32. | |
wider cultural malaise? Centres upon wider cultural malaise? Centres upon | :21:32. | :21:41. | |
tax evasion, systemic and endemic corruption at all levels of | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
society. Undermining the Italian corruption at all levels of | :21:43. | :21:54. | |
economy to the tune of 25% a year. Creating condition to fight against | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
Creating co? I Creating coainst Creating condition to fight against | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
fiscal evasion having high sanctions and also creating a contrast of | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
interests. We started a reform, interests. We started a reform, two | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
months ago, our main point interests. We started a reform, two | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
months ago, our main? I months a interests. We started a reform, two | :22:14. | :22:14. | |
months ago, our main point is we are prepared to present structural | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
reform. reform. On the self | :22:16. | :22:28. | |
money—laundering. You think you can change a culture, do you? I will | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
change a cu? I change a cull change a culture, do you? I will | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
change the laws. What about the mindset? It is not easy.Prime | :22:36. | :22:43. | |
Minister, this might sound like a Minister, this might sound like a | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
strange way to end, but do you have children? Three.Three children. | :22:48. | :22:57. | |
strange way to end, but do you have sure you | :22:57. | :23:04. | |
strange way to end, but do you have country. This is why my first battle | :23:04. | :23:12. | |
against youth unemployment in country. This is why my first battle | :23:12. | :23:26. | |
against youth unemployment in Italy. Jobs for youth. For a young | :23:26. | :23:33. | |
view crucial for the future. We have view crucial for the future. We have | :23:33. | :23:43. | |
reached for the first time in our history a higher percentage of | :23:43. | :23:54. | |
unemployment. I have proposed a preapproved —— and we are proved. | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
The problem is you might not be in The problem is you might not be in | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
power long enough to deliver on these promises. You will see. We | :24:02. | :24:14. | |
will meet again next year. Prime Minister Enrico Letta, that sounds | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
like an attractive proposition. Thank you very | :24:18. | :24:26. |