Enrico Letta - Prime Minister of Italy HARDtalk


Enrico Letta  - Prime Minister of Italy

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suggest the NSA and GCHQ made joint efforts to gather intelligence. Now

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on BBC News, it is the Italian Prime Minister Enrico Letta in HARDtalk.

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Today, HARDtalk is on the shores of Lake Como in northern Italy at the

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annual gathering of the Ambra said the forum of international

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policymakers. My guest the forum of international

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five months into the job, he faces a five months into the job, he faces

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keep his Coalition government series of tough challenges. Can he

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together? Can he dragged Italy out together? Can he dragged Italy out

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of its economic malaise? And on Syria, can he come up with a

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coherent response to the possibility of US military strikes? —— and he

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Prime Minister Henry K letter, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you ——

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Enrico Letta. I want to begin by talking about Syria. You have just

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returned from the G20 summit in St Petersburg, miraculously it seems

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both President Obama and President Putin came away believing that Italy

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was on their side. How on earth could that happen? We signed the

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document presented by and discussed by many countries, European

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countries, Australia, countries, Australia, Canada,

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Korea, Japan, United States of course. Because we think it is to

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give a big reaction, a very clear reaction to what happened on the

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21st of August. And so it was clear from my point of view that Italy was

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on this side. Sorry, already I'm not entirely clear. When you say Italy

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is on this site, you mean the side of President Obama, who clearly says

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a red line has been crossed, that Assad can be regarded as culpable

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for the chemical gas attack, and that there must be some sort of

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military response. Is that the side you're on? No, because the document

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we signed is very clear in saying we condemn what happened, and we think

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that the countries like France, the that the countries like France, the

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United States, and the other countries who want to rain forced on

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this condemnation, can do that incoherence with the United Nations

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procedure. This is what we want without UN authorisation, because

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do. But they say they they say, I want to quote the

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document? I documentave written it down, the document that

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you have put your name to says, " The UN security council remains

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for endless processes that only lead for endless

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document doesn't mention any to more suffering in Syria". But the

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document doesn't mention any military action if you have read the

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document. You're not document. You're not taking

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seriously the point about the UN security council being paralysed and

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the world cannot wait for endless processes. You're saying the world

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can wait? What are you saying?We want exactly to say that the United

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Nations can not be a power without sanctions. So we want there, and

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this is the position of other countries, Japan, Spain, and other

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countries, to sign this document. We want to support a big initiative to

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avoid the fact that the United Nations is without a response. This

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is, if I may say so, a fudge. It is a fudge because you know that your

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own people would not support Italy lining up with the United States

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making a military intervention. I know very well that Italy has a

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clear framework, clear framework, clear legal

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a participant to an initiativent to a participant to an initiative. We

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a participant to an initiativent to need the UN authorisation. We are in

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Afghanistan with the United Nations, Afghanistan with the United Nations,

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we were in Lebanon with the UN and so on. This is for Italian

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participation. I want to be very close to my parliament and with

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parliament I know I can condemn what parliament I know I can condemn

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happened. We can give the support to happened. We can give the support to

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the initiative of Then what will happen later on will

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be of course discussed in a second moment. I don't want to take up too

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much time with Syria. moment. I don't want to take up too

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much time w? I much time w much time with Syria. It's

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important. It's very important, important. It's very important, so

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briefly answer these follow up questions. We saw in the Libya

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operation that Italy bases, its military facilities, to

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bases, its military facilities, the U.S.—led attacks on Libya. Are

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you saying that without specific UN Security Council authorisation

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there's no chance of Italy lending that kind of support to a U.S.—led

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operation in Syria? It is absolutely clear that without UN authorisation

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our proactive participation would be impossible. It depends on what does

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it mean. It's very clear. Okay. it mean. It's very clear. Okay. One

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other thing, you've just come back from the G20, you had time to

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reflect on it, I just wonder what you think Barack Obama, and maybe

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President Putin as well, handle this President Putin as well, handle this

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real real difference, fundamental

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difference over what to do on Syria, and how to address the UN security

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council element of this story. It's very clear that the Syrian situation

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reasons. Because there is an reasons. Because there is an

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unbalanced situation there, it is not very clear what does it mean the

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opposition there, the opposition to the Bashar al—Assad regime. There's

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the experience from what happened in Libya and in other Arab Spring

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countries. It is not easy there, countries. It is not easy there, it

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is not black and white, the is not black and white, the

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situation. Do you think Obama has handled it well? I follow him

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because I think that the European Union and the United States needs to

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stay together. We need to avoid stay together. We need to avoid a

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or in other periods of our recent or in

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real is the risk of a division real is the risk of a division

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between the United States and most of Europe on this issue? After the

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discussion we had, the risk, in my discussion we had, the risk, in my

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view, is lower, because we created a framework of general consensus on

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some points. Then each country will take his own responsibility. But we

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created the conditions to avoid a created the conditions to avoid a

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fight, a collapse between Europeans and the United States. This is why I

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signed. This is why I think I am satisfied. Let me talk about Europe

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now, we have talked now, we have talked about the

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European powers and their stances on Syria, and clearly they have been

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divided. France and Germany still significantly divided. Isn't this

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just another example, and we have seen it through the sovereign debt

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crisis as well, of where Europe talks about unity, talks about

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collective action, but repeatedly fails to deliver. Yes. Of course.

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The division we had in St Petersburg is another division of a long list

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of divisions. Europe isn't working, is it? Europe has a lot of

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problems. When there are sudden decisions to take we have a

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decision—making process that is, in my view, to complex with a timetable

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that is too long. You mentioned that is too long. You mentioned the

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sovereign debt crisis, we took something like

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sovereign debt crisis, we took something l? I something l

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sovereign debt crisis, we took something like 30 summits before

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Council said whatever it takes. The arriving to

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Council said whatever it takes. The ECB would intervene and do whatever

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it takes to stem the crisis. That is the first moment when we started to

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It seems to me, let's talk more about the economic situation, the

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feeling we have seen in the last few feeling we have seen in the last few

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months that the Eurozone debt crisis is through the worst, that things

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are getting better, it is very complacent. If we look at you in

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Italy, your economy is in desperate shape. Your national debt is the

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only to the United States and Japan in terms of its overall size, and in

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terms of the relationship to GDP, it is 130% of your GDP. euro2 trillion!

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Italy is drowning in debt. It is fundamentally damaging this country

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and its future prospects. No, it is not like that. It is not in a

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desperate shape, I'm so sorry, but it is not like you said. For many

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reasons. The first reason, the debt, yes we have a big debt, but all

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European debts raised in the five years of crisis, the Italian debt

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was big, very big, but it was the debt increasing in the lowest level

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in comparison with all the other debt in the European crisis. But Mr

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prime minister, senior economist like the former chief economist at

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the IMF, Simon the IMF, Simon Johnson, said

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fundamentally when it comes to economic governance, when it comes

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to levels of corruption, when it comes to th? I comes to th

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to levels of corruption, when it comes to the failures of the legal

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system and the costs that imposes on the country, and the need for

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structural reform to get the private sector moving, Italy is almost as

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bad as Greece. And undertake structural reform, you

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will not be able to tackle Italy 's problems. We had and we applied

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will not be able to tackle Italy 's best pension reform in Europe. Today

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we have a pension reform with the raising of

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retirement from 60, to 67 years old. So we have a

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welfare. Be sustainable welfare is welfare. Be sustainable welfare is

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pension reform, it was one of the pension reform, it was

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why I'm optimistic for the future. why I'm optimistic for the future.

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Our fiscal consolidation is good. The European Union said yes to the

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exit from the procedure deficit. The primary surplus is

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good. And at the end of the year growth will start again. You make it

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sound very rosy, this is what the mark from Moody 's, a senior credit

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officer at Moody 's said just four months ago, he said we cannot rule

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out that Italy will end up asking for help from the ECB and the

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instability?I ? instabilitye you instability fund. Are you saying to

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instability?I ? instabilitye you me that you can roll it out? There's

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no way in your view that Italy will never need any emergency help? We

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don't need any emergency help, we are doing our homework. At the last

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G20, we wrote in the papers that Italy's structural reforms were well

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and very well applied. Of course, we need growth, and we are... With the

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reforms we are doing we are reaching growth. And of course we have from

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the past a big debt. You sure do.I know. You sure do.We have to tackle

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these problems, and we are. One interesting specific, I want to get

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to politics, the way in which you, for all your commitments to reform

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and economic growth, are hamstrung by the nature of the Coalition that

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you lead. You cannot govern without the support of Silvio Berlusconi and

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his right of centre his right of centre political

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they would only support you, movement. They were adamant that

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they would only support you, continue to support you, if you

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withdrew a significant property tax continue to support you, if you

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because they said it was completely because they said it was completely

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unfair, it was unacceptable. In the end you had to bow to their

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pressure, despite your drive to austerity and to drive down the

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budget and tackle the estate tax, the reforms were

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need to be politically strong. discussed and approved two weeks

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situations for the next year. situations for the next year.

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Everybody in the Coalition agreed on that. But you had no choice.It is a

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reform, I would say, it is a reform, I would say, it is a

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compromise. Berlusconi's party held a gun to your head and said it is

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either our way... We reached a compromise. You may call it a

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compromise but my wider point is about your relationship with

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Berlusconi and his party, and it matters right now because this

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coming week the Senate in Italy coming week the Senate in Italy will

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decide, or at least begin decide, or at least begin the

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process of deciding, whether to expel Mr Berlusconi as a result of

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his conviction on fraud charges at his conviction on fraud charges at

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the beginning of August. Be clear with me, Mr Prime Minister, do you

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believe Berlusconi must be expelled from the Senate? I believe that the

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law has to be applied. Not a responsibility of my government, I

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don't have to take any decisions on that. There is a separation of

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power. You say, it's not power. You say, it's not my

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problem? It most certainly will problem? It most certainly will be

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your problem. Leave the Coalition is Berlusconi is expelled from the

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Senate. I think they will not leave the Coalition. You think they are

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bluffing? I don't know. I don't know bluffing? I don't know. I don't

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discussions. Sure that the what will happen with internal

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discussions. Sure that the government will continue. Put it

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this this way, because Berlusconi is such

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a symbol of how Italy is being run for the last ten or 15 years, the

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other day, Berlusconi's departure is as necessary as it is overdue. You

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with that? —— do you agree. You think he has to be removed from

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Italian politics? I work Italian politics? I work for

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reforms, I work for reforms. I am sure that it is

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necessary to apply those rules in Italy. Why won't you give me a

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straight answer? Is it because you are still a little bit scared of

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Berlusconi? No. This is my job. Berlusconi? No. This is my job. I

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will be very much concentrated on that. I want to ask you a few more

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specific point about reform. One of the very important symbols you made

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when he came into power was two point Italy's first black Minister.

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She has had a very tough time. She has had bananas thrown at her at

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rallies. She has had the Deputy Speaker of the Senate say that every

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time he looks at her he thinks of an orang—utan . How are you going to

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eliminate that sort of shocking racism from Italian political

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culture? More and more convinced to have taken the right decision. A

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integration, we are demonstrating black Minister, Minister for

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integration, we are demonstrating that the country has under the

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the table. I want to know why you as is their existing. With

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the table. I want to know why you as Prime Minister have not done your

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level best to ensure that he is removed from office? I asked for the

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resignation. The only way to have the Speaker or the Deputy Speaker of

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the Parliament, the only way is the Parliament, the only way is the

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resignation, it is impossible to vote against. One local official

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said why does no one rape are so she can understand what victims feel?

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Sentenced by the justice. It is not Sentenced by the justice. It is not

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an easy job, due no. I am Sentenced by the justice. It is not

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an easy job? I an easy jobing an easy job, due no. I am getting

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that impression. You said your mission was to bring morals to

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Italian public life, our public life Italian public life, our public life

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which you said which you said urgently needs

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structural economic reform, how long structural economic reform, how long

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is it going to take you to root out structural economic reform, how long

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the Malays that you see in your country and bring morality and

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nourishment to this country? One reform is already applied two months

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much corruption is a consequention i ago. For civil justice.

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much corruption is a consequention i that. I decided to cut for instance

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the salary of the ministers and the the salary of the ministers and the

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Prime Minister. We the salary of the ministers and the

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Prime Minis? I Prime Minis the salary of the ministers and the

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Prime Minister. We decided to avoid the double salary that we had.

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the big reform of the public the big reform of th? I the big

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the big reform of the public finance... That was one of the

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wider cultural malaise? Centres upon wider cultural malaise? Centres upon

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tax evasion, systemic and endemic corruption at all levels of

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society. Undermining the Italian corruption at all levels of

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economy to the tune of 25% a year. Creating condition to fight against

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Creating co? I Creating coainst Creating condition to fight against

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fiscal evasion having high sanctions and also creating a contrast of

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interests. We started a reform, interests. We started a reform, two

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months ago, our main point interests. We started a reform, two

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months ago, our main? I months a interests. We started a reform, two

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months ago, our main point is we are prepared to present structural

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reform. reform. On the self

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money—laundering. You think you can change a culture, do you? I will

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change a cu? I change a cull change a culture, do you? I will

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change the laws. What about the mindset? It is not easy.Prime

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Minister, this might sound like a Minister, this might sound like a

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strange way to end, but do you have children? Three.Three children.

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strange way to end, but do you have sure you

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strange way to end, but do you have country. This is why my first battle

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against youth unemployment in country. This is why my first battle

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against youth unemployment in Italy. Jobs for youth. For a young

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view crucial for the future. We have view crucial for the future. We have

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reached for the first time in our history a higher percentage of

:23:43.:23:54.

unemployment. I have proposed a preapproved —— and we are proved.

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The problem is you might not be in The problem is you might not be in

:23:59.:24:02.

power long enough to deliver on these promises. You will see. We

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will meet again next year. Prime Minister Enrico Letta, that sounds

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like an attractive proposition. Thank you very

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