Damian McBride - Special Adviser to the British Prime Minister (2005 - 2009) HARDtalk

in Britons suggests public faith in plummeted in the last decade. Why? A

lot of powerful reasons lying on the pages of a dark political memoir

written by my guests today. Damian McBride was the spin doctor for

former British prime minister Gordon leaks and a host of dirty tricks to

serve his master's interests and undermine his enemies. In the past,

Damian McBride never let the truth stand in his way. So what about

HARDtalk. You disappeared from British politics in 2009. It is

HARDtalk. You disappeared from to say it was in disgrace. You have

now reappeared, revealing a great deal about a very sordid political

you done that? During that period, life that you were living. Why have

you done that? During that period, for around 1.5 years I had my tail

between my legs. I guess wanted for around 1.5 years I had my tail

disappear and start a new life. for around 1.5 years I had my tail

they reconcile the person I am now interested in what I had done. The

they reconcile the person I am now with what I did. In having that

about it myself. They started to with what I did. In having that

about it myself. They started to think about what I had been through.

You had not thought about each and the time? You were telling me you

never thought about it? I did not the time? You were telling me you

never thought about it? I did not reflect on it. In the moment I would

think about how it had gone. I did reflection, being outside of that

life and not being able to justify it myself as politics. I did start

out saying to people, that is just political life, they would say,

out saying to people, that is just differently. I wanted to tell the

story from that point of view. We look at the story in detail. A lot

of people will not know what you did and why you did it. I want to be

blunt, because your profession has been that over the years. It seems

that you did this mostly for money. You have been desperately short

that you did this mostly for money. money. We have written it in a way

that is guaranteed you a lot of through serialisation rights, a

that is guaranteed you a lot of of money. I came into this with

that is guaranteed you a lot of expectations about generating money.

I said I would generate the sales to publishers that I could expect to

get somewhere between £20,000 and £30,000. You got much more than

that? I received £100,000. That £30,000. You got much more than

Party. How on earth can you take who professes loyalty to the Labor

Party. How on earth can you take their money? When it comes down

Party. How on earth can you take things, it is to the highest bidder.

judgement if you want. Once you things, it is to the highest bidder.

expecting a lot of money. It has a deal with the publisher, it said

expecting a lot of money. It has done well. I have been taken by

surprise as much as anyone. One understand it, the Catholic relief

charity that you work for, that understand it, the Catholic relief

wanted to give the money to from the royalties, they say they do not

wanted to give the money to from the to touch it. They regard it as dirty

because of the revelations you have delivered about the way you live to

political life. That must be, at the understand it from their point of

organisation. Many of the supporters had read what they read a did not

want the charity associated with it. Many of them have voiced complaints

about that. The charity, which is driven by supporters, said they

about that. The charity, which is a distance. Does it make you feel

so many of the supporters feel they do not want to take your money,

so many of the supporters feel they their good causes, it must make

so many of the supporters feel they feel that you have no future in

so many of the supporters feel they organisation? From my point of view,

that is a judgement based on what I did in the past. If this book is

unacceptable, they do not want the money. Based on what I have done the

separately. They say they are still money. Based on what I have done the

reviewing your future employment in reviewing your future employment

future. I will do my job every day the association. It sounds to me as

future. I will do my job every day recognise that. We would get into

politics operated around Gordon what you have revealed about the way

politics operated around Gordon Brown and what you did. You launched

the book to coincide with the Labour Party Conference. At the conference,

people who read the extracts in Party Conference. At the conference,

newspapers, former friends of yours unconscionable. Many of them former

friends. Were you taken aback by their reaction? I say worse things

conduct. The thing I was taken aback by, from a media point of view,

conduct. The thing I was taken aback then to add to that with some over

the top hysterical reactions, it did not help play down. You chose to go

in that and make a big moisture not help play down. You chose to go

that and make a big noise to Rio conference. You knew, because you

are the master spinner, you knew it would cause an enormous destruction.

These things always go both ways. You generate a story because there

is some sense of conflict. If the reaction had been to play it down,

as I did in different parts of my career, we would always try to play

a book down, we did not want to addressing now is the content of the

book. It is a litany of leaks, smears, dirty tricks. It is lies,

told by you, to further the interest of your boss, Gordon Brown. Did

told by you, to further the interest see yourself at the time as a serial

the most part that I did not do liar? No, I was quite careful for

the most part that I did not do do things in extreme. They give

the most part that I did not do premiership is on a knife edge.

the most part that I did not do amongst union delegates that if

the most part that I did not do walked out there would be civil

the most part that I did not do in the Labor Party. They way I did

that was going around saying that David Miliband is saying this, those

things are made up. I was only able established credibility. I can count

on one hand over the years when journalist would render the day

after I had done a story and say, mindset. You are quite conflicted

about how you explain to yourself what you were doing. On one hand you

say the whole system encourages politicians and their staff to

greed, hypocrisy. You say you were sucked in. In a sense, you are

blaming the system. At other times, you have been flat out honest,

seeing that you told lies, you computer, I am much if it was with

confidential information, you cast slanders and smears of various

people. Which wasn't, was at the well—developed dark side before

people. Which wasn't, was at the went anywhere near politics. A

recognise that. I was already a function and alcoholic for a got

anywhere near the political system. function and alcoholic for a got

anywhere near the political system. The longer I was in politics, the

but a dark side is an interesting worst may be heavy came. I recognise

but a dark side is an interesting phrase. You were a bad person? I had

but a dark side is an interesting see it as a form of combat between

Gordon Brown's and Tony Blair's camp, it was dangerously corruptive

key point. Were you a bad person with malign instincts? Do not think

it is all I was, but I had that with malign instincts? Do not think

to me. To the extent I did not care about some of the people I was

affecting. Hurting in a very real way. Some people were collateral

damage. They got hurt as a result of use to say to myself was, I was

first by myself by seeing how was doing a lot of good work. I drove

through a lot of reforms of the doing a lot of good work. I drove

system which were intrinsically good. I would balance this in my own

head, I would say I do good things and bad things, but it balances

head, I would say I do good things I could not look back on any of

head, I would say I do good things because of the bad things. For

people who are not familiar with the record, some of the people you went

after using all of these dirty tricks, including senior labour

figures, he who cast aspersions about his past, drinking, Ivan

Lewis, a junior minister who you taught a lesson because he tried to

leaked allegations against you. stand up to you one. —— once. He

leaked allegations against you. These stories alone. They give an

indication of how low you went. These stories alone. They give an

are going after enemies of Gordon Brown. Gordon Brown you wish you

the mafia don. The mafia dons is not the mafia don. The mafia dons is not

somebody. I never had orders to the mafia don. The mafia dons is not

up these people. His attitude over the years was that he was a take out

a rival, this book would have been stories full of taking on Alan

Johnston. How often do you speak to Gordon Brown? Everyday. Several

times a day. So when these keep moments happens, the press were

times a day. So when these keep of stories, you obviously talked to

him? The Ivan Lewis will stand out. That was very obvious that I was

responsible. He knew you had done. It was obvious to a large number of

people. They complain about that story. I like to his face. When

people. They complain about that came back to base, having carried

out the hit, whether it be on John Reid or Charles Clarke. Gordon Brown

knew who was behind it. It was you. newspapers and then there would

knew who was behind it. It was you. that kind of discussion. I did not

come back and told Gordon... The issue is that they are not of moral

practices you we using. It is now it is inconceivable that Gordon

practices you we using. It is now terribly damaging to him that he is

to resign, nobody has said that not coming out addressing the issue

to resign, nobody has said that Gordon Brown and new... You should

not have been in a job in 2009, frankly. When Gordon Brown realise

the result. He liked the results of that this sort of practices you

results of you destroying people who everything else I did. He liked

results of you destroying people who would be his speech splashing in the

Times and the Guardian. That is white I delivered. What I said in

the book, or while there was a lot of criticism of me at the time,

the book, or while there was a lot what stage was this post is a all

that positive briefing you do, getting my story and the gender

that positive briefing you do, in the media, you know, at what

point should he say, I will give all complaints about the things you

point should he say, I will give all been accused of but I do not know if

you have done them not. Your version of logic — the people you work close

to — they utterly deny having any inkling of what you were about

whereas, other people quite clearly Milliband complained. There were

people in the press who knew exactly what you are about. The only people

who did not know where those closest to you and that is incredible, isn't

it? There was a huge premium about producing stories about what I

is because I have chosen to make people know about these stories

is because I have chosen to make them public. There were certain

legal issues which made people very Balls, senior Chancellor, when he

says what you did was hideous, wrong, unconscionable, I have never

seen people behave in this way, wrong, unconscionable, I have never

statement really credible? It is all correct. I say it in the book, in

April 2009, when told this story correct. I say it in the book, in

about my resigning, a bull was the only person who screamed at me ——

about my resigning, a bull was the of the staff. Have you been doing

well? Gino... You know, you are of the staff. Have you been doing

is therefore difficult for me to sit here and take absolutely at face

value everything you say about Gordon Brown and Ed. If people like

Miliband and new and in different activities, it is frankly stretching

credibility be on breaking point they did not know. Ed Milliband

credibility be on breaking point that after the election, I was

responsible for our briefing about They knew that was untrue. Even

though that became the source of Ed Milliband's complained, they were

not willing to accept that because they knew I was not capable of

that. In some ways, part of the reason I wrote this book is I was

frankly tired of being blamed lots of things I had not done. In some

ways, I could only say, this is of things I had not done. In some

truth. I explained the things I did. Even in this interview you

truth. I explained the things I you are still labour through a

through. You have done an enormous you are still labour through a

through. You have done an enormous amount of damage to the party and

continue to do it. That is not show in the opinion polls, frankly. This

will be forgotten by the time the in the opinion polls, frankly. This

will be forgotten by the time the election comes around. You have

will be forgotten by the time the this money, why do you give it to be

the money I get will be going to this money, why do you give it to be

the money I get will be going to good causes. I do not think Liberal

voters would want the money to go to good causes. I do not think Liberal

voters would want the money to go to the Labor Party. Frankly, I am

service, you got in the Treasury thinking about the money and what to

service, you got in the Treasury very young people thought you were

very good. You ended up with a self—confessed alcoholic with a

political career in ruins. What self—confessed alcoholic with a

it say about the political culture in Britain in light of your demise?

Did not spot these problems early enough. When I got invited to the

political side, it was at a point when I did something within the

civil servant —— service. At that point, the should be to collect

civil servant —— service. At that saying this guy has bad instincts.

This guy will do things and cut corners. There should have been

This guy will do things and cut intervention. It then became a

political problem. Is there not intervention. It then became a

bigger problem here? In a way, you are succeeding in politics. Your

memoir is completely divorced from IDS, beliefs, the bigger picture is

— all you were obsessed about was tomorrow's headlines as were your

something very wrong with that. That is not the way I thought about it. I

knew with all the talks had with Gordon Brown and others... That

knew with all the talks had with not the way you betrayed Gordon

Brown. He is absolutely upset with not the way you betrayed Gordon

Brown. He is absolutely upset with tomorrow's papers. They were not of

the kinds of discussions I had. tomorrow's papers. They were not of

Blair and Brown and the feuding tomorrow's papers. They were not of

infighting was about aspiration tomorrow's papers. They were not of

issues. The euro, the Constitution power. How for its own sake. I do

issues. The euro, the Constitution and everything else. Do you really

believe that? There were occasions like August 2006 where it was just

about who got into power. But till headlines and the media is that

about who got into power. But till was my job to win him the space

about who got into power. But till needed to succeed to the top job and

then bring his vision to bear. Did think anything has changed — the

journalists, the degree to which politicians regard politics as a

game — has that changed? Did danger is that it does not and we repeat

those mistakes. To the extent that there will be any benefit to their

political system is that it will be very difficult for politicians and

their advisers act the way I acted. Have you ended up a bitter man?

their advisers act the way I acted. was struck by a thing he wrote — I

subsumed my life to Gordon for a long time and I have nothing to

subsumed my life to Gordon for a for it? It was a long time. 13

years. My life could have gone in a different direction, my personal

life as well. You have made some terrible decisions. Do you feel

life as well. You have made some can get your life back? Have you

basically blown it? I cannot take those years back. You can not get

has been the case since 2009. The your reputation back, really. That

has been the case since 2009. The starting point for any of that,

has been the case since 2009. The building any kind of future is to be

honest about what you have done religious man, you work within the

the past. I measure myself with religious man, you work within the

cathartic process. I started out maker? Much more than before I

cathartic process. I started out thinking, what lies to I tell in

when it came to it, when I found order to be able to get this book

when it came to it, when I found myself glossing over the truth and

the stories and the people I had hurt and damage, I thought, you

the stories and the people I had not being honest with yourself and

you will not be able to look friends who know how you behaved in the

you will not be able to look friends Damian McBride, we have to end it