Browse content similar to Christophe de Margerie - Chairman and CEO of Total. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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prices have risen by 500% in some areas. Millions of refugees are | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
experiencing the coldest winter for years. Time for HARDtalk. We are at | :00:00. | :00:21. | |
Monte Carlo for the World Policy Conference, an international | :00:22. | :00:23. | |
gathering of politicians and business leaders from across the | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
world. I speak to one of France's most influential and outspoken CEOs, | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
Christophe de Margerie, boss of the energy giant Total. Does Europe have | :00:30. | :00:37. | |
what it takes to meet the triple challenge of economic | :00:38. | :00:39. | |
competitiveness, climate change and energy security? Welcome to | :00:40. | :01:22. | |
HARDtalk. You are the boss of one of the world's biggest conventional oil | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
and gas energy companies but is it fair to say that you are struggling | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
to keep up with the changes in the energy market? We all are. It's the | :01:32. | :01:42. | |
energy market that is changing and that is changing because the world | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
is changing. What we are doing is not adapting ourselves to these | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
changes but trying to pre-empt them. It seems to be arrogant but | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
it's not. When you are investing such a huge amount of money, maybe | :01:56. | :02:05. | |
too much, you cannot do it by just saying I will see and I will adapt | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
myself. You need to take the position. It might be wrong, so you | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
still have to keep a certain flexibility, but you have to repair | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
for the future of your company, which means trying to understand | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
what the energy world is going to be. It means understanding how the | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
world is changing. Absolutely right but if you look at how the energy | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
market is changing over these last five years, you can see the game | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
changing impact of shale gas and oil in the US and the way that has | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
changed pricing in international markets. You have been making | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
strategic decisions for the last decade and somehow, it seems to me | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
you have not been able to factor that massive change into your | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
calculation is. That is true. Five years in this industry is a short | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
time. We invest over 20 years, 30 years, sometimes more. And we talk, | :03:02. | :03:14. | |
it's true, about shale gas. It's a revolution in the US. The US is very | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
important but it not the whole world. No, but it does mean that in | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
Europe, for example, Total has to look at its investments and | :03:25. | :03:26. | |
commitments in a new way because in North America, you have a completely | :03:27. | :03:36. | |
game changing energy revolution. That person who said that should | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
know that we have been faced with this many times over our lives. I | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
have been confronted with so many different revolution. We went with | :03:46. | :03:53. | |
it. More oil, more gas. Great news. Five years ago, we were talking | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
about peak oil and peak gas. Today, we are not talking about peak oil | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
any more but peak capacity, -- capacity. It's great to have a lot | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
of oil and gas but you have to develop it. But it must give America | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
an incredible competitive advantage. What will be beneficial for the US | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
industry as a whole... Essentially, it means that Europe cannot compete. | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
I cannot compete in the product that is not production. In | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
petrochemicals, we will definitely be faced in five years time with a | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
lot of additional polymers, plastics, coming from the states at | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
a cheaper price and very competitively. That is my concern. I | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
want to talk about politics. You sit in a continent which is committed to | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
the long-term decarbonisation of the economy and it seems to me that you | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
in Total are ignoring this demand from the politicians of Europe that | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
the economic model change and decarbonise is. It's true that I do | :05:11. | :05:20. | |
not like the word decarbonise. Why? We are carbon. We have carbon in our | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
bodies. That may be true but the fact is that by 2050, the member | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
states of the EU... It's not yet voted. It's still a target. And I | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
hope that we will not kill our industry because of putting in place | :05:37. | :05:44. | |
crazy targets. 2050, who knows? But for the time being, we need all | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
sources of energy. Just to say... Why is it a crazy targets? You know | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
better than either the international energy agency, highly respected in | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
your business, has said, and I'm quoting, to have any hope of meeting | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
the two degrees target for the maximum rising global temperatures, | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
we need to leave two thirds of current fossil fuel reserves | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
underground. You talk to me about the potential for more and more | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
exploitation. They are saying that many of those reserves have to be | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
left in the ground. That's exactly my point. First, Europe is part of | :06:20. | :06:26. | |
the world. Europe is not the world. Europe is already cleaner than | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
anybody else and if you talk about France, France's nuclear industry is | :06:30. | :06:41. | |
having a very low level of emissions per head. Lower than Denmark. That's | :06:42. | :06:48. | |
very important to know. And just thinking that Europe in itself or by | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
itself will be reducing the emissions, let's try to focus where | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
those emissions are coming from. And don't say that we are against global | :06:59. | :07:05. | |
warming and climate change... It is the opposite. Total is at the head | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
of the fight. Total, as you know, is the number one energy company in the | :07:09. | :07:17. | |
solar energy business. We acquired a company in silicon valley. It cost | :07:18. | :07:25. | |
over $1 billion. Quite a commitment. 1.4. If you look at the overall | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
expenditure of your company in research and development, let's say, | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
how much of it is targeted at renewables and how much of it is | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
spent constantly looking for new forces of fossil fuels? We are | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
always looking at the best ways to explore end-use those fossil fuels. | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
We cannot be against greener energy. The first goal of Total is | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
efficiency. When we invest in our new development, we invest in how to | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
reduce consumption. For Total and for our consumers. I'm struggling | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
because I understand that from your company, you are planning to spend | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
at least 11 billion euros over the next 15 years on tar sands | :08:11. | :08:19. | |
production in Canada, in Alberta. Which is a very small part of our | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
portfolio. Very small. I'm sorry, 11 billion euros does not sound like | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
small change to me. It's the most inefficient fuel product you can | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
possibly imagine. Al Gore called it the dirtiest fuel on earth. Well, | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
why don't you say this to the prime minister of Canada and of Alberta? | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
Why Total? Everybody has to take responsibility. If the Prime | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
Minister of Canada were sitting in this chair, I promise I will be | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
asking him this question. You are the boss of one of the major energy | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
companies. You have made a decision. I have made a decision to face the | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
demand in a responsible way. To look only to renewables, that cannot | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
exist. We are in the solar energy business. I was criticised for | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
investing in that. I was criticised, people saying it was not | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
my job. If everybody did their job public, the world would be better. | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
What we need is energy. I capable, as Total, to deliver oil and gas in | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
a clean away because it's needed. I just want to understand why, when | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
you have a range of choices in front of you, why you think it's right for | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
Total to engage in an extraction process in Alberta, Canada, which | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
means that three tonnes of sand and soil is dumped for every barrel of | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
oil that is produced, according to Friends of the Earth, and which | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
produces toxic tailing leaks, which already cover 176 square kilometres | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
of wilderness and which are still growing? Why did you believe it is | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
the right thing to do to pursue that business? First, if you know what we | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
are doing, we are reducing our investment in Alberta. Everybody | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
knows that. Why? Because as you just said, we might not need any more as | :10:24. | :10:31. | |
much of that oil sand as in the past. So it was a mistake? Know, | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
things have changed. Today, with shale oil, there is substitution. So | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
we have other sources of energy, cleaner energy. But they are still | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
fossil fuels. We are not making mistakes, we are adapting ourselves. | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
Today, everybody says calm down over the production in Alberta because | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
for the time being, we do not needed. We slow down production. But | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
the environmental groups... We do not do things to please people. It | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
will only please them is rather than saying you are as ending to see what | :11:15. | :11:23. | |
the market does, it will only please them if you say, you know what? We | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
have assessed our long-term strategic options and we no longer | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
believe in this heavy oil tar sands. That's not so easy because | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
again, that's what they say. But then they do not ask about the | :11:39. | :11:47. | |
jobs, the employment, all of those things that are part of the economy. | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
You cannot just be a nice person and say do this, don't do that, and then | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
tomorrow... But you don't want to be a nice person. I don't want to be a | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
nice person to please, I want to be a nice person, which is to say, | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
doing my job properly. I don't want to invest $20 million and then stop. | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
James Hansen, a respected climate scientist, says that unless we leave | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
these marginal fossil fuels in the ground, we have no chance of | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
averting dangerous warming of the planet. OK, let's tackle this issue. | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
Let's face it because it's a very important issue. Who says what and | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
who is doing what. The same persons will tell us that you are | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
responsible for bringing energy to your clients. You are responsible | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
for bringing electricity. You are responsible for people living and | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
not dying. Who takes the decision for what we leave in the ground and | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
what we produce and what will be the source of replacement? If there is | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
any shortfall of electricity in this hotel today, who will be fingered? | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
Us. What are you doing, guys? If there is any problem at the pump... | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
And you think we should trust you to make the right decision for the | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
planet? Know, I just doing my job. I'm not in charge of the planet. You | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
are only responsible to your shareholders. And that's what many | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
people in the world are worried about when you are put in charge of | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
making key decisions. No, I'm not making decisions. The key | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
decision-makers are the politicians. They vote. I not... You know, it's | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
very funny. I am not allowed to tell you what you should do. I'm not | :13:36. | :13:44. | |
allowed. Work on renewables, we do it. Reduce emissions, we do it. Even | :13:45. | :13:46. | |
if we are told by our shareholders that it's not our job. We do more | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
than this because we feel responsible. But then politicians | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
have to take responsibility, which means that they want more | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
renewables, the price for consumers will be higher. I understand that | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
you have to work within a context that is framed by public opinion and | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
political decision-making. One quick thought on one other strategic | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
challenge. Fracking and shale gas exploration in Europe. You are | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
French -based company. Your French president has said there will be no | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
shale gas production in France as long as he is president. Other | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
European countries have said the same thing. What is your view of | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
Europe's position on shale gas exploration? In Europe, I would say | :14:30. | :14:47. | |
that we are not developing as much. Are you wanting to move into | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
fracking in the UK in a big way? If it is possible to do that. Why not? | :14:51. | :14:58. | |
Many people in Britain would be worried to hear you say that. Some | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
will be and some will not be. That is democracy working. If you want to | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
move to Britain and invest in British shale gas, you have to sell | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
to the British people a production which according to many | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
environmental campaigners damages groundwater supplies, damages | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
groundwater communities. I disagree. You think you can sell | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
that when the French government says they will not allow fracking? Yes. | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
It is we are an international company. I pay my taxes in the UK. I | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
pay billions in taxes in the UK, not in France. Why? Because I am making | :15:42. | :15:49. | |
money in the UK. They consider us as a British company, not as French. I | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
am French. My company works on 130 countries in the world. In all of | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
these countries, I respect the decision of that country and the | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
decision of the Parliament. I want a couple more quick answers. You seem | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
very determined to move back into Iran as soon as possible. I said the | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
opposite. But I will continue to consider the proposition of the | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
group. I said that we will not do anything in Iran until the embargo | :16:23. | :16:30. | |
is lifted. Respect the laws. What I have been saying, I said what is for | :16:31. | :16:42. | |
sure, no real peace process will move without Iran being involved. | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
That is the only thing I said. On the rest, Total, we will not move | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
until the embargo is lifted. Why? That is the way it should be. You do | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
not have any choice, that is the law. Exactly. You have settled out | :16:57. | :17:03. | |
of court this very year with the US federal authorities to the tune of | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
$245 million because of their claims that you violated antibribery laws | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
in your dealings. Your team in the Middle East and the dealings with | :17:18. | :17:27. | |
the Iranians are meant. It is true. -- government. It is rather | :17:28. | :17:37. | |
important. It was rather important. The US, you can have this kind of | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
discussion. Did you bribe Arabian officials? Of course not. Then why | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
did you pay $245 million? It is a very strange system. They are not | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
allowed to talk about the settlement. Not without approval and | :17:54. | :18:04. | |
we are out of what we call the three-year period under which we are | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
certain control. So you cannot tell me exactly what happened? I can tell | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
you it did not happen. But if Iran opens up, why should we not go? Why | :18:16. | :18:23. | |
shouldn't you go? It comes down to this and they want a simple answer. | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
Do you believe and trust that the President represents a new start, an | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
assembly that you can do business with? I have not been discussing | :18:36. | :18:44. | |
with them. Until I can, I will not. Some of your team have been talking | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
to them. We have not, it is not allowed. It is not Europe. The | :18:52. | :19:03. | |
American government. I will always be very careful, especially with | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
Iran. At the same time, you cannot see that Iran goes back to the | :19:10. | :19:11. | |
international community because it is acceptable. We had problems in | :19:12. | :19:20. | |
the past. In the United States, it was not illegal in Europe, it was | :19:21. | :19:27. | |
illegal in the States. There were some specific things in the US | :19:28. | :19:42. | |
culture. We were almost a comma. But to be clear, I understand the way | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
you have to be careful in your answers, but just to be clear, you | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
see a major potential for your company in Iran. As for when the | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
international community and situation allows. I see more | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
potential in Africa, Latin America. I have been signing contracts in the | :20:05. | :20:14. | |
UK and Brazil. Especially where we feel the best situation is. Iran is | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
not part of my priorities. And this leads us to the final fought for the | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
interview. You just emphasised one more time what a truly global | :20:25. | :20:32. | |
company Total is. It is an international perspective. More and | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
more of your business is not in France. The headquarters in France, | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
we, marketing, business in France. But you face industrial action, you | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
face a government that is imposing new taxes on you to the tune of | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
hundreds of millions of euros per year. Would you say that your | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
frustration with France is such that you could one day leave France? | :20:54. | :21:02. | |
Frustration exists, but it exists when it becomes difficult to | :21:03. | :21:10. | |
change. Let us be honest. Is the president very bad for your | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
business? No. In France in the refining sector, we are losing | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
money. Do we do not pay taxes. IP more taxes all over the world than | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
in France. A lot of people are frustrated. That is the way the will | :21:28. | :21:38. | |
exists in France. -- law. You cannot tax revenues that have already been | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
taxed another country. Why is it that in the recent past you have | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
talked about, and this is a direct quote, our real problem is the state | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
in France. He said 55% of GDP, a nanny state, this is all stuff you | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
have said about your own country. You do not sound particularly | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
happy. I am not happy as a citizen. I am French. I am Total. It is not | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
the same. I tracked to avoid my personal view is becoming that of | :22:14. | :22:22. | |
Total. I need to be clearly neutral. I know some friends would like to | :22:23. | :22:35. | |
see me. I represent everybody. It is not normal. I was wrong. 57% of GDP | :22:36. | :22:45. | |
is controlled by the state. It is totally abnormal. But I am not | :22:46. | :22:56. | |
against the state. It has become responsible over too many things. In | :22:57. | :23:04. | |
France, people like it. There is a problem, the state. Companies like | :23:05. | :23:13. | |
my need to be more vocal. They need to say why it is the way it is and | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
why it can be better. Why it is not so easy. French CEOs should be more | :23:18. | :23:26. | |
vocal. To say that they are against it. What are they offering? Do you | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
feel confident that Total will still be one of the world's biggest, most | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
successful energy companies five years from now? Yes. No doubt. | :23:39. | :23:47. | |
Christophe de Margerie, we have two ends there. Thank you very much for | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
being on HARDtalk. It was a pleasure. | :23:51. | :24:26. | |
Pretty unsettled week all in all coming up, particularly midweek | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
onwards. Most of the activity will be coming off the Atlantic. It | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
should not be too | :24:35. | :24:35. |