Yehia Hamed - Former Minister, Freedom and Justice Party, Egypt HARDtalk

assets of Chinese leaders will stop if found guilty he could face jail

for five years. Now it is time for Hartill. --

HARDtalk. Welcome. It is three years since the

uprising collectively known as the Arab sprinkling their biggest prize,

ousting Hosni Mubarak that will Egypt for 30 years. The previously

banned Muslim Brotherhood produced the countries first ever

democratically elected President. -- country's. The Muslim Brotherhood

has no designated as a terrorist organisation and their leaders are

in jail or in exile. We speak to Yehia Hamed, investment Minister in

a government that it expected its own interests ahead of economic

crisis which led to the downfall. The new constitution has been

overwhelmingly approved by Egyptians. Elections are promised

within months. The Muslim Brotherhood telling supporters to

trouble the leaders of the treacherous military coup, is in the

brother had encouraging the violence it professes to the poor. -- abhor.

Yehia Hamed, welcome. Do you accept the constitution approved and this

referendum? It is a pleasure being with you.

Definitely, we don't consider the referendum that was voted four days

ago at any kind of legitimacy and we don't consider that it has a place.

The constitution that we have is the one that we had in 2012, and this is

the one that was voted for with 64%. It was the one that was given a few

days ago, that's one was designated by a military coup regime that

ousted as very good portion of the society.

This is a constitution approved last week where it had a vote of 89% for

yes with only a turnout of about 30%. A fellow Islamist party voted.

Your constitution, the monarchy were in government four, was approved by

the yes vote of 64% on a lower turnout. Why was that one legitimate

and this one isn't ? Is that it should be the other way round.

Actually, it is the three numbers and percentages that we always heard

during that time, the 98 and 99% which is definitely giving a very

good indication about the violation of the system of the referendum. I

believe that era are lots of reports that give signs about the violations

that happened during this time. I will give you examples. Anyone who

tried to propagate for a boycott of this referendum was either beaten in

the street or arrested without any kind of case against them. You can

find inside the stations of the referendum, signs that give you

indication that you have to get a yes vote, as you did on the streets

and within the media in Egypt. I believe the problem is not about the

number of votes because the big sector of Egyptians is the youth and

they almost abandoned the referendum and boycotted it.

The turnout is still higher than it was when you were in government.

Excuse me ? The turnout is still higher than

when you were in government. This is a referendum under a constitution.

This is a constitution which guarantees freedom of belief as

absolute whereas the constitution passed when you are in government

was just protected particularly the position of women is now better. The

National Council of women said of your ear near an office that you

were the worst for Egyptian women. -- your year in office.

This constitution was written with the blood of the revolutionaries and

with the handcuffs of the martyrs. 12 of the Egyptians were shot that

with live ammunition on the Thursday of the referendum and another two

were killed and the second day. That is not answering the question I

just put you. What about the state of woman ?

I believe that even if we have to revert back to the people of Egypt

with a democratic process that gives them the freedom of suppression, FAC

any kind of icons that need to be changed in the constitution of 2012,

there is a democratic process to do this. You cannot have a

constitution, a referendum, over the tanks and weapons.

You have made that point. We are going to come to the Army. Let me

ask you very specifically, we are going to come to that. Let me ask

you that a constitution that has been approved and the comparison of

the situation that existed when you were in government for that period

of the year. As a set, the National Council for women in Egypt has

described your error is a school for Egyptian women. Among one of the

quotes from them is that the ending of the quota for women MPs which

were a number of MPs were women went down from 12% to 2% between two

elections, 2010 and 2012. One woman who speaks of the organisation said

that of your government back in March of last you when it was an

office, they tried to make them was whatever gains they got from the

revolution. This process democratic we were. To

find a state owned entity or body criticising the constitution and

something in our favour. Believe me, I wouldn't challenge you if I

said that we have got some items that need to be changed, items they

need to be reviewed in a constitution of 2012. I can give you

many other examples in this constitution that is anti- freedom.

I believe the constitution is also not good on the practice on the

ground. I can give you the constitution which enforces the

military. As did your constitution. It required that the Defence

Minister had to be a member of the Armed Forces. That is the case in

this constitution. It isn't any difference. Isn't it the case that

there is a process under way will have the constitution, then we have

an election for the President or a similar, we don't know which order

yet. You saying we will encourage our supporters to engage with it, we

won't trash it and get involved. Definitely. This is the whole

scenario that the regime wants is to be in but I give you the other

version of the story that we have an elected President, and this is the

first elected President since 7000 years of Egypt. He has been

captivated. Here has been held in an unknown place for five months. He

has then released along with his presidential team and we have a

democratic process. People in Egypt after the revolution came out and

called for freedom and social justice and liberty. I believe that

the scenario of what you are referring to, all of this needs to

be understood that this is in Egypt and that is dragged down of the

democratic process, the Democratic process came out...

One of the things that happened was a deterioration of the economy.

Isn't that essentially the catalyst for what led to the protests that

let the Army to intervene and remove President Morsi from office?

Inflation, petrol shortage, water shortages, power cuts. One of the

party's involved in against your government said that one of the

things they enjoyed for 30 years in Egypt was that they didn't have

blackouts especially in the cities. Under the Muslim Brotherhood they

had blackouts. This is quite sarcastic because in

winters now, in Egypt, you have under military rule, their very high

percentage of electricity cutouts in the main cities but actually, nobody

speaks out because of the fear of the Army. Because of the Army, the

years during the staff that run the country...

You many Armed Forces was to mark -- forces ?

Exactly. We had 2.4% GDP growth and during this year, which under the

General of the arms rule, the GDP growth was only 1.1%. A can give you

another example for this. Don't. I will give you some examples which

under Hosni Mubarak the growth was 5%. Under him, the budget deficit

was eight when 3%. And he was more. We can throw numbers at each other

all through this programme. No, we cannot.

People's experiences of the economy were serious that meant that people

were suffering. You acknowledged there was a problem with the

financial crisis and an article. I agree there is a financial crisis

but let's compare numbers with each other. I can give you numbers of

inflation. Let's not compare numbers because we

will go like this all day. Let's look at what happened. The IMF, the

International Organisation, stood willing to lend money to Egypt,

ready and waiting. A provisional deal had been done. Then, according

to I think tank, the Muslim Brotherhood through the Freedom and

Justice Party, its political wing of President Morsi, decided to put it

on hold and consolidate its position. So $4.8 billion which

could have helped the people of Egypt, your government make the

changes you said you wanted to make, it was turned down.

I ask you, when you ask me questions about the economy, don't try and put

the status, and don't try and have the answers from me. I am saying

that the economy that yes, we have got the economy numbers but if you

compare what we were going to take from the IMF, you have to compare

and to the $12 billion from the US. But you didn't take it, at least

they took it. No, it is because the Gulf states

accepted, they didn't give us any kind of help is if we were being

penalised for the revolution from January.

But the point is, the rest of the world was prepared to help you.

I can give you an example of the IMF. We had a meeting in which was

President and there was compulsory demands that we increased the number

of attacks from 10% to 12% all at one go. They called it a structural

change of the economy. They told us that we have to take all of the

subsidy after the main substance that we get over for the people. We

said, if you want us to take this one, and we are happy to do so with

structural change, we have to understand that we are in a

formation in Egypt and we have to respect that there are more than 25%

of Egypt under the poverty line. I believe this is something that I

have been supporting along with other European countries that have

been trained to enforce and give something that nobody knows about.

The Ambassador of the states wants to look to Morsi and say, if you

want to take from the IMF I believe you have to governmental changes.

This gives you an indication of what used to happen in Egypt. They were

calling for freedom of Egypt and there were calling us... See you are

saying you didn't take the money because it imposed political

controls on new ? Some observers have said...

It is not political at all. We wouldn't accept it.

In the final analysis, and Institute in Washington representative said

that people had taught the Muslim Brotherhood that red is more

important than ideas. I believe the question is in the

hands of the people. They gave the answer, they ? They

protested embassy to have you thrown out of office.

I believe this is democracy. They were protesting in the streets. This

is democracy. This is to have the people protesting over economic or

political positions. This is pure democracy. If you go out on the

streets and put on demonstrations now, you have girls being sentenced

over in 11 years just to be outside. Although it was commuted to as a

suspended sentence on appeal and they were released but your point

about protests is an important one. We will go on to that. Let's stay,

Fera few more minutes, onto the period of government.

Mohammed Morsi one the presidency with the voters. One of the more

tolerant of critics? What happened when the Liberals and Christians

walked out of the drafting process for the Constitution? He didn't try

to get a compromise. He took new powers. As critics said, in the

words of the former IAEA diplomats, he made himself Egypt's Newton

Ferrers. I will give you some examples. The party constituted was

inside the group for six months. They read the whole Constitution.

Just before we had it for the referendum and beating, they were

out of the constitutional committee. I can understand where you're coming

from. People might say the President was stubborn or he was trying to

have his own people under the government. But for the three

changes in the Cabinet that happened during the one-year that Mohammed

Morsi was in office, he had all parties including the opposition to

come. What about before the people protesting who were taken to a

detention centre? According to a police report, your party headed the

detainees over. They were then beaten. Your reaction? Instead of

condemning illegal detention, Mohammed Morsi spoke out against the

victims of the attack. That is not a very tolerant approach to dissent,

is it? What happened then, eight people from the FTP were killed.

Eight people. They lost their innocent souls. Is it eye for an

eye? When you have 217 people were detained and were given to police,

they were released on the same day. We are condemning any violence. The

President said there needs to be an investigation over this. You have to

understand as well that they want to our is being questioned for the

deaths of these people. I felt pariahs by the guns pointed at me.

According to a man last July during the protest. He was talking to

Amnesty International. I was dragged on the ground, beaten and given

electric shocks. It was by people who supported Mohammed Morsi. Maybe

not members of the party but they were there to support him. Violence

followed. The organisation verified 11 people died after being tortured

by supporters of Mohammed Morsi. This is the background. This is

followed your government. This is not the background. Eight people out

of the ten who died were from the STB. -- FGB. Again, I am not at all

trying to justify it any kind of violence. If some people have

committed a crime or have committed an estate that is NT the wall of

law, they have to be sentenced or judged an equal environment. The

question is, what happened to the people who killed those 11 people

altogether? What happened to them? They were set free. The problem has

become, by the beginning of July, was... There was no law and order. A

large people were on streets. The other action the army took,

according to an interview, it was civil war.

This is the story that the general tried to give the people. This is

quite sarcastic. What he said exactly before this, a couple of

months before, is that the army went to the streets. What you are saying

is that if the army goes to the streets, there will be a lot of

violence. -- he is. They went to the streets and killed more than 7000

people with tanks and weapons. Numbers will always be negotiable.

Nobody can deny that thousands were killed. It raises the question, what

happens for your organisation? You were an illegal organisation for the

charitable work is to carry out a Mubarak did not allow you to carry

out. The Muslim Brotherhood is designated as a terrorist

organisation. The regime has described you as a terrorist

organisation. The fact is, they are in power right now, whether you

think it is a key factor government. What does it mean for you? Actually,

I am really surprised. -- the factor. The European states are

still backing up the regime. Since the Mubarak time, they are giving

one statement. (CROSSTALK).. Were does it leave the Muslim

Brotherhood? It is encouraging supporters to protest. Protest leads

to violence. No. This is not by any definition that protesting means

violence. We have been saying that our protests will be peaceful. If

you say the protesting is equal to violence, this is what the regime is

trying to propagate over the media. Excuse me, I am not trying to do

that. This is the word of one of your supporters. This is an

organisation bought for 85 years under a fascist regime. That is our

comfort zone. The army pushed us back into it. Either would push the

military backed or we die trying. People have died. Other activists

have died after a confrontation with the armed forces. You can say they

killed him. I did not read the circumstances. (CROSSTALK). Even at

the answer. -- he did not kill himself. He is not able to see his

family. The doctor was one of the figures of the revolution of 25th of

January. He was kept in a bathroom for 60 consecutive days. This is

exactly what happened. To give you a very straight statement that we as

the Muslim Brotherhood calling all of our people to protest peaceful

and tell we restored the legitimacy back and our freedom back. We are

here to restore them and race. (CROSSTALK).

Your website says, rejuvenating your activities. Your destiny is to

topple the leaders in a treacherous military coup. I have never heard

anyone in top order without a shot being fired or a rock being thrown

or somebody being injured or killed. Is there a danger to enthusiastic

supporters will end up becoming violence because they think it is

the only path left? We are anti- violence. We believe all Egyptians

will give the pure example of how innocence and peacefulness will be

able to defeat the borders of the army. Definitely. Even if this is

sacrificed. We are very much given our souls for the freedom of the

Egyptian people. Violence will be on the shoulders and has made a coup

d'etat with the support of the regional and international allies,

unfortunately. But I promise that in a couple of days, the revolution is

coming back on the streets, an 25th of January, for the freedom and

justice and for making sure we get our dreams of the revolution. Yehia

Hamed of the Muslim Brotherhood. Thank you very much for joining us

on HARDtalk. 24 hours ago, it was about fog and

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