Justin Welby - Archbishop of Canterbury HARDtalk

towns considered strongholds of President Yanukovych. In Kiev they

took over the headquarters of the Justice Ministry.

Those are the headlines, time for HARDtalk.

The official residence of the art Bishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby.

He has just embarked on a two of four African countries, all touched

by a vicious bloody conflict, Democratic Republic of Congo,

Rwanda, Burundi. He wants to visit as many communities in Africa as he

can. Can he help heal the divisions in these countries? And what are his

answers to critics who say religion is partly to blame for ethnic hatred

and killings? The church is polarised on issues such as same-sex

marriage and gay priest. Can he keep the church together?

Archbishop Justin Welby welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. You have chosen

for countries in Africa either in the midst of conflict or emerging

from it. Difficult, like? The Anglican community is in 145

countries, with 37 had watchers who are across the world and it is my

business to keep in touch with all of them. These are countries, three

of which I know, not South Sudan but Burundi, Rwanda and Democratic

Republic of Congo. The first treaty -- duty is to be a longside the

Billy and the people who are leading our churches in many of these

countries. Archbishop Daniel in the South Sudan particularly. Do you

have a sense that the Church can play an important role in promoting

reconciliation? I have a stronger sense than that. The evidence is

over the years that the work of the churches, not just the Anglican

Church, but the churches in general, has been crucial in many of these

areas in setting up reconciliation processes. ARA functional

organisation. When are you making appeals, with the Vatican, appealing

to the warring parties in South Sudan to stop the fighting, you

said, we pray all of you in South Sudan may become instruments of

peace. Many committed Christians are in South Sudan including Salva Kiir

who goes to church regularly, but you get the sense that you and Pope

Francis made the appeal, but who was listening? The fighting carried on

many people were killed also. Because you can't do anything,

doesn't mean you should do nothing at all. Pressure in conflict is the

cumulative. In the end, the warring parties decide to stop fighting.

External people can't stop the fighting but they can encourage an

end. The accumulation of pressure from many sources is one factor that

helps people to stop fighting. It is important to talk about it, to

appeal for peace, and it may not have an instant reaction but it is

an added bit of weight. Should be international community do more to

encourage an end to the fighting? Although it may unravel yet because

the rebels have not given up arms. The ceasefire agreement signed, as

you say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, the international

community must come back in every way possible to back the initial

step. It is a cessation of hostilities, not a peace agreement.

More or less, status quo. The international community needs to

continue as the Security Council has done the increase of the UN troops

there so that ceasefire can be monitored and observed. To encourage

and put pressure on local parties to stand by what they signed. Are you

worried about South Sudan? A brilliant birthright in 2011. My

experience in working in countries post- conflict over many years is

that the impact of conflict on a society is devastating, long-lasting

and difficult to deal with. Any country that had been in half a

century of conflict is going to have major issues. Worried? Gas, I think

it will always be a worry. -- yes. 10,000 killed in South Sudan, half a

million displaced, William Hague says he supports the African union

decision to establish a commission of enquiry into alleged crimes

committed on both sides and calling on them to the whopper rate to

ensure those responsible are held accountable. Would you like to see

the perpetrators held to account, however senior their position even

if it goes to the top? One of the biggest problems in all post-

conflict societies is impunity. The answer to your question is yes might

we must make sure there is no impunity. But it must not look like

external forces enforcing a certain something on the South Sudan. It

needs to be the South Sudanese who deal with this. With the support and

Corporation of the international community. You went to Democratic

Republic of Congo, Rwanda and Burundi, did you hope to make a

difference that? The main aim of going there is to meet the primates

of the Anglican Church in each of those countries. It is to see them,

talk to them on site in their area and listen to what they have to

say. You won't meet political leaders? Inevitably you do. The

president of Rwanda? I don't know, quite possibly. Would you raise

within the murder in South Africa of the opposition figure from Rwanda

who was found murdered, after you had said something along these

lines: Anyone who betrays our courts or wishes our people ill will fall

victim. The US said that the President 's statements about

consequences who Mac the trade Rwanda. Archbishop of Canterbury 's

have been meeting had a government since 597. We have experienced

dealing with these situations. One is always blunt and forthright about

it. My predecessor was when he met President Mugabe. Extremely blunt.

You have talked about how the church and its leaders can promote

reconciliation in countries emerging from conflict. But there is a body

of opinion that says that faith promotes violence and division. What

is your answer to that? That is a good question and it is complex. The

best illustration I have heard was from eight friend of mine who is a

Nigerian Archbishop. He said in many African places, conflict rest on

three cooking stones. One stone is ethnicity, one stone is economy,

particularly in areas with high youth unemployment, and one stone is

often religion. Another way I talk about it is that faith is the

easiest hook on which to handle all hang much more complex issues. It is

simple, you are of one faith so your bad and I'm of another so I'm good.

Let me give a public intellectual here a philosopher, said this in May

last year that, offenders of religion like to bridge rate faith

as a source of peace and fellowship and condemn those who commit

atrocities. But the daily news media shows how far this is from being

invariably true. In fact, the relentless bad news about religion

promoted violence shows the more zealous people are in there zealous

beliefs, the more likely they are to behave in non- rational or

antisocial ways. He says that faith is the problem, it is not just a

convenient peg on which to hang problems. I don't accept his premise

to start with. We can throw examples but tell Dietrich on offer that his

faith was contributing to violence. Rather than him giving his life for

the sake of defeating the Nazi atrocities . Tell that to many of

African leaders who have often died in the cause of peace. It is

nonsense from beginning to end. Of faith is misused. Human beings

naturally use things to their own advantage, including belief. To wipe

out faith in general in those terms doesn't make sense. White how would

you describe what is going on in the Middle East, be it Syria, which a

BBC correspondent covered. People told him they work in blamed because

they were Christian. If you look at Iraqi, where you have been, and you

know how the Christian minorities there are persecuted, it is about

faith. Not exclusively. I've been threatened because of my faith at

points, working in areas like that. But even at those times, one was

aware it was not exclusively about faith, but people were threatening

me because I was from Britain and we had troops in place, or because I

represented something they disliked . It is a huge complex issue. That

was in Nigeria? At one point. You thought you would die. At one point,

yes. He says every time he goes to Nigeria his heart is in his mouth. I

haven't heard that. That's very kind of him. Talking about Nigeria, they

have issued another warning saying the consensus is the Christian

community will be left with no option but to respond appropriately

if they are any further attacks on members, churches and property. Do

you think these two communities, the Christians and Muslims, can live

together in peace in countries like Nigeria, when you hear the

Association issuing a warning like that? The hardest saying that we

have from Jesus, one of the most revolutionary sayings, is Love your

enemies. It's very easy for me sitting here and saying that you

need to love your enemies when people are in conflicts like war. I

have been in those situations. It is a command of Christ, not an option,

he doesn't say, if it's possible. All over Nigeria there are areas

where Christians and Muslims live together very contentedly and

happily within families, towns and all kinds of communities. In the

north-east of Nigeria, there is a significant insurgency. It rests on

three stone 's. 85% youth unemployment. Big ethnic

differences. The fighting in the north-east has killed more Muslim

than Christians. Let me be clear, Christians are being persecuted and

we need to be very robust about that, we need to find good

disagreement, not our disagreement. 80 million Anglicans -- 18 million

Anglicans their. The issue of gay priest and same-sex marriages, the

Church in Nigeria, Kenya have said that we aren't happy about what has

happened on this matter ever since the Church of Canada allowed

same-sex marriage in 2002 and the Church of England in the United

States in 2003. There's been the traditionalist wing of the Anglican

Church and the liberal wing, what are you doing to reconcile these two

wings? News headlines, people in a different countries from even more

different cultures and traditions don't always agree with each other.

It's not startling that we disagree with each other sometimes. I am

trying to not get everyone to agree. But to try to transform bad

disagreement to good disagreement. There are headlines and the can add

other countries to the list. In Uganda, they feel very strongly

about this. There are countries like this were in the church, struggling

with the issue, we are not of one mind over it. It will take time.

What am I doing? I am trying to make sure that people meet and listen to

each other, understand each other properly. And learn afresh to love

one another as Christ, and -- commended us. Can you really have

this dialogue with an in mind when the example you are quoted in The

Daily Telegraph newspaper last year saying, we have seen changes in the

idea of sexuality and sexual behaviour. The vast majority of

people under 35 think we are plain wrong and wicked and equate it to

racism and other forms of growth and addresses in justice. -- growth and

atrocious. This could be described as a more western and liberal

interpretation. Was commenting on the change in culture and not on my

position. The changing culture is undeniable. It is a simple fact. But

not if you are in Africa. I was talking in the context of the

same-sex marriage act and how that changed. The House of Lords in this

debate in the second reading, I said I disagreed with the act. I spoke

against it very clearly. We were overwhelmingly defeated. The

realities of a change in Western culture are beyond any debate at

all. A church that fails to acknowledge the court around it is

changing, doesn't mean it changes what it does but it says it is

wilfully blind to the change around it. It is being foolish. That is

what is putting you or the Church in West at odds with the Church in

Africa. They are accused the Church in Canada, England, the US producing

revisionist forms of the Christian faith that are not recognisable to

the majority of Anglicans worldwide. That is the leaders in Nigeria and

Kenya said in October 2012. Also said that in November 2013 in

Nairobi. It is not news that we have disagreement. Nor is it something

that worries me. Where you stand when it comes to these gay priests

and same-sex marriage? My personal view has been stated clearly in the

House of Lords. I do not support the idea of same-sex marriage and I

uphold the teachings of the Church of England which has not changed to

any degree at all that marriage is a lifelong union of one man and one

woman. Do you think this issue can pay the charge apart? Yes. There has

never been a moment where the Church has not had a disagreement. It was

called to deal with massive disagreements within the church.

Where there are differences, at the moment, the Church of England's view

on same-sex marriage is clear. My view is clear. In this country, we

also need to be very careful about our profound opposition to

homophobic behaviour. We are working on and, if I'm honest, struggling

with the issue of how we recognise the love that exists between people

who have a same-sex orientation and who are committed to each other and

how that is recognised. The Anglican communion has set clear rules about

that. It is a disagreement will continue for some time. My own view

on same-sex marriage is one thing. My own view on same-sex unions, I

have recognised. The immense quality and profound love and commitment of

many same-sex unions, I do not think that marriage is the appropriate

way. The partnerships for gay priests is fine. Is permitted by the

Church of England for same-sex couples. Both priests and others. De

priests remain celibate? That if the rule of the church. It is difficult

to enforce. With women bishops, when might we see the first ones? There

are 27 worldwide. We are well down the track with the Anglican

communion. July this year? No. There are four -- to make further steps in

the process we have with Parliament. One in February and July

2014. If the measure passes, if there is an agreement, it is a very

complicated thing that people feel deeply about it. If the measure

passes, the opportunity by the time it has gone through Parliament and

all the rest, I would have thought the chance would be in early 2015. I

am strongly committed. You have also been outspoken on the issue of

inequality and poverty. Our user not worried about making the church to

political? It seems you are going into the realm of policy, political

policy. It is an old chestnut. Back in the mid 1990s when we published

face in the city, somebody accused my predecessor of being a Marxist.

Somebody recently accused the Pope of being a Marxist. It seems rather

unlikely. You have to speak about policy. But not party political. He

spoke on rising energy bills at the same time the opposition Labour

Party was as well. We have more people on the ground in more places

in worshipping communities than anyone else in the country.

Professional people living in their parishes across 9000 places in the

country often in the areas of the most, of course we are aware of the

pressures on the poor. When I read my bible, I find Jesus commands me

to be very outspoken about that. So, while the benefit cuts. This is for

disadvantaged mothers and children. But the Government accessible has to

be fair for those who need it and pay for it. The church has been

talking about all the benefits and reforms for the full some time. Iain

Duncan Smith... One of the most educated and thoughtful people in

this area. Sometimes, the application of policy is complex in

its impact on individuals. That needs to be recognised. I am very

careful about saying the reforms are wrong. It is right for those who

contribute. The Bank of England is encouraging that reforms in

encouraging people to go back to work. Incentives to work are hugely

important. Training for work is important. There is a lot of debate

about bankers bonuses. RBS is involved. The government has not

said it will prevent bonuses being given out in the form of shares. You

think they should be? Renumeration was clear. It has been an issue. It

has to be kept at reasonable and measurable and objectively or fought

three levels. That is what we said. -- well-thought through. And you

will continue to speak out? Yes. Thank you for joining us.

The weather was really all over the place during the course of the

weekend. We pretty much had