Saeb Erekat - Palestinian Authority Chief Negotiator HARDtalk

won't be arrested - are allowed to keep the gold they've extracted. Now

on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. What must it be

like to have been at the centre of the seemingly endless and fruitless

quest for and Israeli-Palestinian peace deal for more than two

decades? Is there any reason for expectations to rise as the US

Secretary of State John Kerry prepares to publish his own outline

for a deal? Those questions are for my guest today, veteran Palestinian

negotiator, Saeb Erekat. We approaching a defining moment or a

dead end? Saeb Erekat, in ROM Allah, welcome

to HARDtalk. Thank you. You are about to go to Paris for talks with

John Kerry. As I said at the beginning, you are a veteran of

Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations. How would you care to

rise your mood right now? Yes, I am going to Paris tomorrow, accompanied

by President Mahmoud Abbas, we are scheduled to meet secretary Kerry on

the 19th and 20th. I can characterise my mood as expecting a

defining moment and I really hope this time that John Kerry will move

in the direction of what is needed and not in the direction of what is

possible. What is possible in American foreign policy means what

the prime Minister of Homs can do or cannot do and that is why we always

reach an end to these it tempts in the past. -- at temps. I hope you

will put on the table what is needed break step solution. I am sure you

hope that but I am trying to dig down about what you actually believe

is going on. You have been talking to Mr Kerry for many months in this

current negotiations. Is it your impression that he is, this time,

going to come out with a framework, which will be fundamentally a

breakthrough? I have known Mr Kerry for the last 26 years and I do not

think of any other American official who knows Palestinians and Israelis

inside out as much as Mr Kerry. I believe that is the different this

time. I believe that no one stands to gain more from his stands from

Palestinians nor from his failures. It is our independence, our freedom

if he succeeds. It details, it is a continuation of the Israeli

occupation. In the past few months, since July 29, we have exerted

everything humanly possible stop I met with John Kerry - after the two

meetings in Paris that it will be 24 meetings. I met with him and his

team. We have presented everything possible in order to ensure that

what will be put on the table is a balanced difference between

Israeli-Palestinian. Before we get to the substance. One quick point

which seems to me a very big problem. As you say, this process

was launched by Kerry that there would be bilateral talks which would

involve you and the Israelis talking to each other but since late last

year, you have refused to meet the Israelis. We have a peace

negotiation in which Kerry has to hold the ring and you refuse to talk

to the people you are supposed to make peace with. You are wrong on

this. You are right in saying that Palestinians and Israelis met last

in December in bilateral meetings and ever since that time, Mr Kerry

decided to take the negotiations in a different direction. Now, he is

meeting with Mahmoud Abbas and with Benjamin Netanyahu on the other side

because from day one, he said negotiations would be at two

levels. One, the level of negotiators and then at the level of

him, Mahmoud Abbas, Benjamin Netanyahu. He then spoke of a later

stage when he would bring the leaders to President Obama and

himself. It is consistent with the press as he began with. We did not

say we are against meeting with the Israelis. We met with them in July,

August and December. Then John Kerry decided to do it... Because it is

time for decisions not negotiations. That is why he is dealing with

Mahmoud Abbas on one side and Benjamin Netanyahu on the other.

Deadlines. The point of this process was that Kerry said would not be to

talk forever. We are sick of that approach. We are going to set a

deadline by the end of April, 2014, there will either be the outline of

a final peace deal, a lasting settlement, or they will not. Every

indication we have that in the US media over the last few weeks, be

Americans are becoming more flexible. There will be a lot of

talking that will have to happen. Are you saying it is the end of

April or bust ? It's the Israelis element succeeds in filing his

efforts, why would you extended negotiations? That is the big

question. The deal was that we entered this negotiations the nine

months. Cover all issues, long-term agreements, and then the Israeli

behaviour since that time, they introduced 10,500 units, demolished

homes, escalated attacks on Palestinians, and have not been

preparing their people for what it takes for John Kerry to succeed. I

have said no official. As a matter of fact, I have not heard any of the

government say we need to steps. I have not heard this. If they want to

continue this line of dictation and settlement rather than peace and

negotiations, why should we extended the one minute? Plan B will be

instruments to UN agencies and to join the Geneva convention so the

State of Palestine will become a state under occupation. Get into the

substance of these talks. A blunt first question is you prepared to do

what the Israelis demanded you must do as a first stage of this

all-encompassing negotiation and recognise that Homs is the

nationstate of the Jewish people as Mac if you are ready to do it, why

do not do it now here on HARDtalk? Stephen, the state of Israel is the

state of Israel. They have a birth certificate as you do. I will tell

you frankly, I will not change my narrative, my history, my religion.

But you are going to have to change your narrative because at the moment

it is one of diplomatic failure, conflict, hatred and a running sore

which leaves the Palestinian people without a state, without economic

development. You need to change the narrative and if that requires you

to recognise Homs as the state of the Jewish people and therefore, of

course, a fundamental compromise on your part in terms of the right of

return of those Palestinians and ancestors of those who lost their

homes in 1948, so be it. It is time to do it, isn't it? Now you want a

Jewish state, he wanted to give up the right of their return, you

wanted to give up... He wants me to give up on my independent and

sovereign trip to cause Benjamin Netanyahu wants to state the years

to come? If that is what he has in mind, he can make peace with himself

but it will not happen with me. My narrative here is that as you said,

we have been trying to make peace and save lives and change the status

quo with a 2-step solution. For the last 20 years. Those who failed me

are those that continue with the eight 70 is... -- activities. My

narrative is, I am the proud son of Jericho. Are you in their

grandchild, it is my narrative. It is my story, my history, my

religions. I was here before they came and built my hometown. So why

should I say Homs is the homeland of the Jewish people? -- Homs. --

Israel. You are sending mixed messages. If... Surely it is not so

much of a stretch to give Israelis what they want, at knowledge that

the nation of the Jewish people and then move on to the issues that

really are at the crux of this, including border security, and

settlement in Jerusalem. In your line of logic in what you are

repeating from the Israelis, they want me to recognise them as a

Jewish state, give up the rights of refugees and give up on the 67

Lions. You are repeating exactly what Benjamin Netanyahu is a saying

and that is why this negotiations go to a dead end. Let me put the record

straight about what Benjamin Netanyahu said about refugees. A

British Palestinian living in Britain will make his choice. That

is the choice of every single refugee. We have to have

international mechanisms and then different countries will give

choices of whether they have the right to come to Palestine, to

Israel, compensation, remaining where they are. That is how you and

conflicts but if the Israelis want me to come into HARDtalk and say, I

give this up, I give this up, what is there left to negotiate? I say

proudly today that my president says, he recognises the state of

Israel to exist can you tell me if there is one single Israeli minister

including the Prime Minister, who has said they are willing to

recognise the state of Palestine? They should stand tall and apologise

to the Palestinian refugees? They made them suffer. They should reach

out for them. This international mechanism should be established. If

I may say so, your repetition of the 67 line as the fundamental printable

is well known but is it not also well known that the Americans have

taken the view in the course of these negotiations that they will

have to be modifications to the 67 border and, according to leaks in

the American press, the Americans believe a line can be drawn, land

swaps implemented, which will leave 75% - 80% of settlers to stay in

their homes as part of the peace deal. Are you saying that is

fundamentally impossible? Look, if you think about nationstate,

swapping territories, it happened between many, many countries. US

Mexico, US Canada, John and Iraq, in Africa in many cases. Now, can I see

the map of the State of Israel? Can someone, John Kerry, come to me and

tell me these are the borders of Israel 67 and we want you to have

land swaps in accordance with this map? You are talking about swaps

without me knowing what is defined as Israel's borders. They are the

only nation on earth would not recognise their borders. They do not

have borders get. The minute they recognise what their borders are,

the minute they are willing to recognise me, I am willing to engage

in land swaps but how can I do this before then putting a map on the

table of their borders? They have not done this. I tell you what they

have done, if I may... They have added 10,000 settlement in what is

supposed to be a Palestinian state which is four times the growth of

New York in the last four months. You telling me this is the behaviour

of a government that wants a two state solution? Everyone who looks

at this does not dispute that. I have seen attacks the ground change

over those years. East Jerusalem, for example is now the Arab East

Jerusalem we talk about is in circled by a vast chain of Jewish

housing. From the north in the south. That is the reality. When you

talk about East Jerusalem being the future capital of Palestine, you

know as well as I do East Jerusalem is now fundamentally it from the

West Bank? Is it not time for you to deal with realities? I am not

dreaming. I will tell you something very frankly. Without East Jerusalem

being the capital of Palestine there is no meaning to have a Palestinian

state. Would like Palestinians to look me in the high and walk me

through my hometown to the Jordan River in the year 2,000. And 19,

what do they see on this land. A juice going to convert to

Christianity and become Palestinians? This will not happen.

As much as they dismantle the settlements in Sinai and Gaza, these

are the main obstacles to peace and they are obstructions to peace. We

have been saying, they had to make the choice. Settlements or peace,

they cannot have both. That is why we are reaching this difficult

situation. That is why Benjamin Netanyahu is undermining Kerry's

efforts in the West Bank and everywhere. Here is a simple

proposition for you, you tell me one significant, fundamental concession

you have made as Palestinian negotiator to the Israelis? Just

one? We have recognised the state of Israel right exist on the 1967

borders. 78% of land. We have accepted to establish that this --

Palestinian state on the 1967 lines, 22% of the land. Another two

we have accepted to entertain, once Israel aligns its borders to 67 and

accepts the state of Palestine to 67 to entertain the idea of swapping

land. We have accepted to be a country of limited arms and invited

to -- a third party from Europe, from the UN from all over to make

sure we comply with the agreement. We have accepted East Jerusalem

capital of Palestine, West Jerusalem a little of this wrong. We must have

a capital for peace where Muslims, Christians and Jews can worship

without impediment and anyone preventing them like they do to

Christians and Muslims today. They can come to Jerusalem and -- they

can come to Jerusalem and pray. You have given me an interesting list,

are you telling me you accept the demilitarised spell as --

Palestinian state in the future and you accept a long-term presence of

America or NATO or some sort of international force along the Jordan

Valley to ensure Israeli security interests along the border with

Jordan are permanently represented? Is that what you are saying? I am

saying, that yes, I accept I accept a presence in the state of Palestine

and the Jordan River to be at my airports to make sure we, as

Palestinians are complying with the agreement and no one threatens us or

Israel. I'm adding to that. That this force will not be a combating

force. It will not have a single bullet. They are here to make sure

Palestine is safe and Palestine borders are taken care of. And we

have accepted this. Number two, . Sorry to interrupt, I want to pick

up on that. When you make that sort of offer. You know that many

Palestinians, I'm thinking of the leadership of Hamas for example,

they accuse you of a fundamental betrayal, a sell-out, of replacing

one occupation that of the Israelis with another. Perhaps be headed by

the Americans. This is another problem you have. Even as you try to

sound conciliatory at the American talks, you have others in mass

saying we want to unite with fertile but only if they stop selling out

the Palestinian cause. Hamas is a Palestinian political party, they

know very well that once an agreement is reached it will be

introduced in a national public referendum when Palestinians have

the right to say yes or no. I will tell Hamas leaders that an

international force change on by the security Council is not an occupying

power. When Europe will the United States or Latin America or Africa

would come to see the peace process as something we should be proud of,

peaceful force. Look at the goal and heights, there is a piece falls

there. Look like Sinai and Egypt. These are not an occupying power.

These are coming at the request of the State of Palestine were the UN

security Council resolution. We can not compare those with occupation

forces. You make a very strategic stake by comparing this with the

Israeli occupation. Before we end, let's quickly run through the

constant question when you talk about association, who holds the

cards, who has the cards? Is it not true, that although you talk about

plan B option, going back to the UN strengthening the Palestinian case

there, going to the criminal court, you do not hold the cards, you do

not have the power. Because of these talks collapse, the Palestinian

economy will collapse and you have said that the Palestinian authority

may collapse as well? I said the following. Number one, Netanyahu --

F Benjamin Netanyahu foils Kerry's attempts we will sign a statute and

those that worry from tribunals should stop committing crimes.

Number two, the Palestinian Authority cannot can sustain itself

in the current form. The occupying power from the Jordan River to the

Mediterranean. When I say failure is not an option I may be exaggerating,

failure is an option but it is not an option because of the nightmare

scenario is that they are after. I hope and play Benjamin Netanyahu and

as government will stand tall and extend immediate recognition for the

state of Palestine on the 9067 lines. I hope his government will

define their borders of 1967 and work with Kerry in order to fix --

achieve a successful end to his efforts. Two states living together,

the State of Israel on the 1967 borders and a solution to all the

issues we have talked about is doable but it Netanyahu chooses the

path of continual debt patience and settlements and siege and closure he

is doomed and we are doomed in the region will be doomed. This is why

I'm saying Winnie to ensure we do not fail this time. We have been

deeply negative about Netanyahu and his negotiating position through

this interview, if you are honest with yourself and you look at what

you personally have achieved as a peace negotiator over 20 years, do

you fear you have been played for a fall? Have been suckered into a

process which over 20 years, appears to have delivered nothing according

to your own terms. And which during which, the facts on the ground have

worked against the Palestinian people? Do you regret the process

you have played such a big part in? No, I am proud of what I'm doing. I

am doing the job. The greatest favour for myself, the children my

grandchildren and the Palestinian people. I'm trying to make peace and

change the abnormality of the situation. I was 12 years old when

it came to downtown Jericho. I'm sick and tired of someone oppressing

me and directing my life and pressing my children. I'm sick of

tired would not known whether my children will come home every night.

I want my children to be like your children. This is that crime because

I am doing is to bring Palestine back to the map. I am trying to

bring peace based on a matrix of mutual interest. Negotiating they've

peace and frustration for five years, is much cheaper than

exchanging bullets for five years and that is the truth. We have to

end there. Thanks for joining me from Ramada.

This week looks a good deal quieter than last week, certainly far less

stormy. At times there will still be rain and some fairly brisk winds.

There is an area of low pressure responsible for