Geraldine Finucane - Campaigning widow of Pat Finucane HARDtalk


Geraldine Finucane - Campaigning widow of Pat Finucane

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school. The militant group Boko Haram is being blamed for the attack

:00:00.:00:00.

as well as a bomb attack in the capital Abuja, which killed 70. Time

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for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. Healing a society traumatised by

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sectarian violence is hard. Anyone doubting that should take a look at

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Northern Ireland today. The de facto war between the IRA and the British

:00:26.:00:31.

state is over but a legacy of richness `` bitterness remains. My

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guest today is Geraldine Finucane, whose husband Patrick, a Catholic

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lawyer, was murdered 25 years ago. The killing exposed collusion

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between the British security services and Protestant

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paramilitaries. The Finucane family still wants a full public inquiry,

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but for the greater good of Northern Ireland, is it time to move on?

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Geraldine Finucane, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. It is nice to

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be here. We must start with the cataclysmic events that happened in

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your family in 1989 when your husband Pat was brutally murdered.

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Does it feel, 25 years on, that event has shaped your entire life?

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It has not shaped my entire life. My entire life was beginning to be

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shaped when I met Pat Finucane, for starters, but certainly, I would not

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be here having an interview on HARDtalk, I would not imagine, if

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Pat had not been murdered and I have not pursued the questions that I

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thought needed to be asked. And you have pursued those questions for 25

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years. I wonder if at any point in those 25 years, you thought to

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yourself, enough. No, I have never thought enough because I have always

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wanted answers and I'm prepared to wait until I get the answers. I

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would like to go back to your relationship with Pat Finucane and I

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want you to put it in context for me. He was a working`class Catholic

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boy from West Belfast. You were a young woman from a middle`class

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family in Protestant East Belfast. How did you get together? It was

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when we went to university. My friends's boyfriend was a football

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player and I had to go with her to watch the football matches because

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she would not go on her own. Pat Finucane was playing football and we

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hung out with the football team and the rest is history. You make it

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sound quite straightforward but it was pretty extraordinary, wasn't it?

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Because you must both have been aware that by becoming friendly with

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each other and falling in love with each other, you were in some senses

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breaking a taboo in Northern Ireland. I did not know that I was.

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And we were in Dublin. But you carry Northern Ireland with you. Your

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background, your past, your culture. I came from a very Protestant middle

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class background and to be honest, when the trouble started in 1969, I

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did not understand why there was trouble. I did not realise, when I

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was 18 years old, 19 years old, that everybody did not live the way I

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lived. If there is a stronger word than naive... I was naive. I did not

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understand Northern Ireland. Once you took the decision to be a

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partnership and get married and make your life in Northern Ireland, and

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Pat of course became a successful lawyer, I wonder how aware you

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became of his family's ardent republicanism, nationalism, if I

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could put it that way. 's mother and father were not ardent Republicans,

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not by any means. But all his siblings were. No, not all his

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siblings. Pat came from a very large family and all of them chose

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different routes. Some of them, I will admit, did take a Republicans

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stand and did fight for what they believed they should have. Somewhere

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in the IRA and you knew that. Yes, some not all by any means. One of

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his brothers is in a religious order. So, you know, they are very

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varied family and to say there were ardent Republicans is not a truthful

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representation of that family. This is sensitive because I'm leading up

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to 1989 and the most terrible murder of Pat, your husband, but I just

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wonder in those years before 1989, through the 1980s, when he was

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working, representing as a solicitor IRA activists including Bobby Sands

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and other hunger strikers, some of the most senior figures inside the

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IRA, you must have been aware that there were people in Northern

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Ireland who believed that your husband, far from just being an

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independent minded human rights lawyer, was actually part of the

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IRA. No, I never thought that for one moment. My husband was an

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officer of the court and when he went to college, he did not study

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law but in 1969, his family were burned out of their home by

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Protestants from the Schenkel Road. They were burned out and the family

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was dispersed. As were many other families in Northern Ireland. And

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the communities were completely disrupted. I ended up coming

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back... We had no intention of coming back to Belfast at that

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particular time but we did and I ended up living in a Catholic,

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working`class estate, which people had just come to from everywhere

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because they had been burned out or forced to move out. The housing

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estates in Northern Ireland at that time were mixed but what happened

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when the Trouble started in 1969 was some estates, the Protestants put

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the Catholics out and made it a totally Protestant estate. The

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Catholics put the Protestants out and it became totally Catholics.

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There was great movement in the population. I ended up in a

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Catholics, working`class estate, and you have no idea how much of a

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culture shock that was for me. I had no idea. Coming from a leafy suburb

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to a working`class estate was shocking but Pat looked at his

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community and saw that there was a need for representation. They were

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lost. They were being stopped and searched, they were being interned,

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they were not given access to a lawyer for maybe up to 36, 48 hours

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if they were arrested. And Pat sort that he could do something for his

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community, so that is why he decided to take the law and become a lawyer

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because he thought that was the best way forward to help. I suppose the

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question is whether he crossed a line. For example, Sean

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O'Callaghan, a highly controversial figure, a former IRA commander who

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became an informer. He has said that he first met Max one at what he

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regarded as an exclusively specifically IRA meeting in Donegal,

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when Pat turned up with Gerry Adams, who at the time was a senior figure

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in the IRA. And in Sean O'Callaghan's mind, there was no

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question of Pat's affiliation. My simple answer to that is I think

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Sean O'Callaghan is a liar. Let's get to that date, the 12th of

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February, 1989. You were having a lunch with the family at home. Yes.

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Sunday dinner. There could not have been for one second in the mind the

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thought that your home would be invaded by gunman but it was and I

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just wonder now whether the unimaginable horror of that day is

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in any sense sort of dissipated by time, if the recollection of it has

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changed after 25 years. The actual horror of the murder? Yes. If you

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had been sitting in your kitchen having your dinner with your young

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children and somebody had come in and fired a certain amount of

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bullets... I mean, there were 14 bullets in Pat. After the RUC

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forensic team left my kitchen, I find all the bullets they had used,

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which were everywhere in my kitchen, left, right, centre, everywhere. The

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horror levels leave `` never leaves you. I don't dwell on it. I don't

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try to recollect it. But it does not go away. Do you think that was true

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for the children who were with you at the time but who were very young?

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Is it as true for them as it is for you, recollect it as an adult? Yes.

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They were all at a very impressionable age. My youngest son

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was just short of nine years of age and my daughter was 12 and my oldest

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son was 17. All of those are very impressionable age is. John was

:10:44.:10:47.

young enough to remember and the other two were teenagers. Yes, of

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course. And my oldest son actually gathered the children into a corner

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and probably saved their life. It was an extraordinarily brutal

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killing and it resonated not just across Northern Ireland or the UK

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did, over many years, prompt a did, over many years, prompt a

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series of investigations and reviews of the interest occasions and then

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enquiries into the reviews of the investigations. And it is true to

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say that you probably know more about what happened, who did it, how

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it was plotted, than most people who lost loved ones in Northern

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Ireland. Would you accept that? Would you feel that is true? Well, I

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don't know who did it. You know that some key individuals involved in the

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plot has been convicted. For example, one of those shooters,

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gunman, was ultimately sentenced to 22 years. Are you talking about Ryan

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Nelson? I'm not talking about Ryan Nelson. We can get to him in a

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second. But other individuals, Ken Barrett, was actually convicted of

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being one of the gunmen. My main thrust in this campaign has never

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been the gunman. In the 1980s, before that and probably since,

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gunman has been two a penny in Northern Ireland and it was never

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the gunmen that I was interested in. I wanted to know who instructed

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them. I wanted to know how far off the chain of command this all went.

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The gunman didn't think this up for themselves. I don't give them that

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much intelligence. But you mentioned the name Brian Nelson. He has been

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connected with this case. He, we now know, was an agent working with one

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of the Army's special... The Force research intelligence service. He

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has been named. Others, for example, the man working with the

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RUC special Branch as an agent, who provided the weapon, he has been

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named as well. I just come back to this point that you do, after so

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many years and so much pain that you have suffered, you do have, do you

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not, a strong sense of the collusion with the security services, the way

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in which the paramilitaries some elements within the British state

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security were working together? Yes. Some being the world. I only have

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some notion of it. There has never been a proper inquiry where

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witnesses can be cross`examined, and similar statements can be verified

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by cross`examination. None of that has ever happened. David Cameron,

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back in 2011, invited you to Downing Street because he believed in

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setting up one further review led by leading barrister Sir Desmond De

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Silva. He believed he was doing what you wanted, going that extra mile.

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No he didn't. No, he didn't. If his aides had talked to him properly, he

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would have been under no illusion that another review was what the

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family wanted. We were told before we went to Downing Street that we

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would be happy with what we heard. And we were certainly not happy with

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what we heard. We had been having meetings for up to one year before

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that meeting in Downing Street. My legal team and the legal teams on

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the Crown side. And it was discussions about the type of

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inquiry and we have had a particular difficulty with the enquiries act

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because one of the clauses in that legislation states that a relevant

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government minister may override the tribunal with a restriction notice,

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so the power and the independence of the tribunal is not total and we

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felt that did not give us a very fair playing field. Now, at one

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stage during the discussions, we were offered a protocol, which was

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used in an inquiry into the Baha Moussa case. In Iraq. In the

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allegations of torture by British services. Yes. In that protocol,

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they were willing to let the tribunal be totally independent and

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that was put on the table and we said if that is what you are going

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to have is the way you operate, we will go with the inquiry, let's

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start tomorrow. That was the last meeting we had. So, you can

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understand that when we went to Downing Street and the Prime

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Minister said we will not having an inquiry and we would just going to

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review the papers, where Sir Desmond De Silva did not have the power to

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compel anybody to speak to him, he could not cross`examine anybody...

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The papers had been looked at before. It was a complete and utter

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waste of time and money. You walked out. I didn't walk out. What I am

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getting too is this, Desmond DeSilva went ahead with this review and he

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came out I will quote some from it, he concluded that state agents

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played a key role in the murder of your husband. He said authorities

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could have invented it, but didn't and concluded that it would not have

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happened without state involvement. But, he said, in the end he could

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not say that the killing of Pat Finucane was linked to an

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overarching state conspiracy. Isn't that the real problem you have? That

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you, with the greatest of respect, are convinced there was a

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overarching state conspiracy and you don't want to hear any expert who

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has reviewed the evidence and concluded otherwise. He hasn't

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review the evidence thoroughly. He hasn't had the power. He didn't

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speak to many people. He just read something on paper. Now, when Judge

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Cory did exactly the same thing, he read statement a and statement be

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and that, because he couldn't go any further than that, he was only

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designated to review and that he couldn't make a final decision

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because they were questions to ask, discrepancies and other such things

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``statement A and statement B. How can Desmond DeSilva make such a

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decision doing the same thing? I'm not convinced that this is the way

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it must be. I don't want an enquiry and if it doesn't come out the way I

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think it should, then I'll be unhappy. I just want a fair crack of

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the whip. I want my site to put forward, the other side, and an

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independent tribunal to reach a conclusion `` side. I want it to be

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transparent. This case is not about the murder of Pat Finucane any

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longer. This has more impact to Northern Ireland than you could

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possibly match in. It affects so many people. `` imagine. People

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deserve to find out the truth clearly and transparently and not

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for something to go on behind closed doors and then be told that that is

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the way it was. Nobody at this stage believes that because it has been

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delayed and delayed and delayed and people now say, well, what are you

:19:12.:19:16.

hiding? Why don't they just do it? There is a wide ranging discussion

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in Northern Ireland now about the merits of continuing the quest for

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justice, not just in your case, but other cases that come from that

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troubled period, weighed against the need to look for the future, not the

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past. The need to move on in Northern Ireland. Would you accept

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at some point you would have two look forward and not back? You will

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have to move on. There is an analogy I use which sums up well, if you

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have a wound of any sort, you treat it in a certain way to make it heal.

:20:02.:20:07.

Deep wounds, which this has turned out to be, because it was about

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collusion which affected the whole of Northern Ireland, a deep wound

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cannot be stitched over and just left, because it won't heal, it will

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fester and eventually it will burst. That is what is happening in

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Northern Ireland at the minute, because not only the case of Pat

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Finucane and collusion hasn't been dealt with, but another of other

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things haven't been dealt with. The trouble in Northern Ireland is

:20:37.:20:39.

escalating all the time. So, where does that leave you when you hear

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what has happened for example to more than 180 Republicans suspected

:20:43.:20:51.

of involvement in IRA activities, some including murder and other

:20:52.:20:55.

alleged offences, who have, in effect, been offered amnesty?

:20:56.:20:57.

Letters from the British government have been received, saying they face

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no prosecution and have been now known as on the runs. It is vital it

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is that they do not face prosecution as part of the peace process. How

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would you feel if you were the relative of someone who lost their

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life as the result of the actions of these on the runs? I can't speak for

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anybody apart from myself. I understand the pain that other

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people have. I have pain myself. Our family have never sought

:21:31.:21:34.

prosecutions against the people that murdered pat. That has never been

:21:35.:21:38.

our primary aim. Our primary aim was to find out the truth `` Pat. To

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find justice, and have it exposed so that everyone understood what was

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going on. That has been our primary aim. I can't say to someone else who

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lost a husband or a brother or a son or some relative, I can't say that's

:21:57.:22:01.

what you should do. That would be very arrogant of me to say that. You

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don't accept the notion that at some point amnesty becomes a very

:22:07.:22:08.

important concept in Northern Ireland. The former Northern Ireland

:22:09.:22:15.

Secretary of State, Peter Hain, said that we need to look to the future

:22:16.:22:20.

and if you are going to do that, addressed the issue of amnesties and

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apply it evenhandedly across the board. That means even for British

:22:23.:22:27.

security forces who face their own questions. To go that, if you are

:22:28.:22:33.

healing something, you know, you have to look at what you are

:22:34.:22:38.

healing. And, everything needs to be healed in a different fashion. I

:22:39.:22:41.

think that's what makes Northern Ireland so difficult to heal. It

:22:42.:22:49.

was, there is so much to cover. From South Africa, we have inherited this

:22:50.:22:54.

phrase that troops off our tongues, but, maybe at some point, particular

:22:55.:22:59.

after a generation, reconciliation becomes more important than pursuing

:23:00.:23:08.

the truth to the very end. Different people in Northern Ireland are at

:23:09.:23:12.

different stages of the journey. That is why it is very hard to reach

:23:13.:23:19.

a consensus on how we should all move forward together. Let me end by

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bringing us from the very beginning, when we talked about the way your

:23:27.:23:33.

relationship develop to now, you and he crossed a divide to make your

:23:34.:23:37.

relationship and your marriage and your children together. When you

:23:38.:23:41.

look at your children's lives and the communities in Northern Ireland

:23:42.:23:44.

today, do you think things are very different? Do you think sectarianism

:23:45.:23:54.

in Northern Ireland is on the wane? I don't think I would go as far as

:23:55.:24:01.

to say it is on the wane. Sectarian divides are still very prominent in

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Northern Ireland. There is a lock of community work going on. There is a

:24:07.:24:11.

lot of cross community stuff. But, I think it is still a big issue.

:24:12.:24:19.

Geraldine Finucane, thanks in much for being on HARDtalk. `` thanks

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very much. Hello. Many of us have seen lovely

:24:25.:24:50.

spring sunshine in the last few days, but it has been rather chilly

:24:51.:24:56.

first thing. A reminder that it is

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