Doyin Okupe - Senior Adviser to Nigeria's President HARDtalk

Qatari organising committee has denied any wrongdoing. Now on BBC

News, HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. It took the

abduction of more than 200 schoolgirls to focus international

attention on the appalling level of violence and insecurity in

north`eastern Nigeria. The brutal conflict between the Islamist

militant group Boko Haram and government security forces has

killed thousands. The Nigerian state is visibly failing millions of its

people. My guest today is Doyin Okupe, a senior adviser to President

Goodluck Jonathan. Are Nigeria's leaders capable of rescuing their

country? Doyin Okupe, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much,

Stephen. We have to start with the ongoing story of the 200 schoolgirls

who were abducted from their boarding school. By taking those

girls, it is clear Boko Haram made the most brazen challenge to your

authority and credibility of your government. And it is a challenge

your government is failing to meet. Steven, that is wrong. The act

itself is dusted Lee and I agree. But it is not a reflection of the

seriousness of the challenge. And I will explain why. `` dusted Lee. The

girls were soft targets. There were over 217 girls in the secondary

school. None of the teachers were there. It was just the girls with no

light, or electricity. They were just sitting targets. It is not a

reflection on the capability of our military or prepare a for anything.

Surely it is the most basic challenge to the ability of the

state to protect its most innocent civilian population. In the words of

Amnesty International... Steven, that is also wrong. The State is a

massive state, it is about 160,000 square kilometres of land. There are

over 2000 or 3000 schools in this place. So what you can do this to

have, what we do have, is security in these schools. The problem, they

contact security. In this situation, schools have been instructed to

close down. Until the government has closed down all its schools, schools

closing down, and because of these examinations, pupils were taken to

the most secure areas. Hang on. For some reason, we can't get it right.

Four hours before the abduction operation began, the headquarters of

the military were informed of the attack was going to take place. The

military did nothing. That is disinformation or misinformation.

The military in this area generally receive information of possible

attacks over the state. And they routinely ignore them? No, they

don't ignore them. Most of them are hoaxes. In this particular case, the

information was not that Boko Haram was coming to attack these schools,

it was that Boko Haram was coming to Chibok. They did not know exactly

where the attack was going to be. By the President's chief spin doctor

and media and public affairs adviser. `` you are. How can you

explain to me that the government first of all tried to tell the

Nigerian media that most of the girls had been freed and returned

home, which was patently untrue. Your government doesn't appear even

now to have one steady, specific number for how many girls are still

missing. And it took more than two weeks for your boss, the president,

to make any public statement about this situation. We have three issues

here. First of all, the first question was that the girls... Your

officials claimed in the early hours that the girls had been freed and

returned home. This is what happened. When the event happens,

there was no official of the government, neither, nor the vice

principal, nor any of the boarding house workers present. So when the

military approach them to find out what happened, the principal told

the military that several hundred of our girls were in the school. And

some of them have returned. And that only eight parents cannot find their

children. That is what she said. The confusion began, the confusion which

exists today. You tell me exactly how many girls are missing today

from that school. You must know. Steven, I will tell you the truth.

Only God the government of Borno state, and the principle of that

school, the truth about this matter. This is the truth. , come on. You

cannot sit here in England and understand the problems we have in

Nigeria. This whole thing, in the fullness of time, by God 's grace,

we will know exactly what has happened. But until then, only God,

the governor of Borno state, the Commissioner of education and the

principal. Because here is what... It is a gross dereliction of duty.

York President... Can I tell you something? Will am going to tell you

that is nobody that I have spoken to on this matter, whether the

Governor, the printable, the parents, they have said the same

thing. There have been so many versions, so many views, the same

number of people as you ask. `` the principal. Lets stop for a second.

Why did it take your President more than two weeks to address the

Nigerian people on this matter? Hold on. Now, the issue is... Please,

just a simple answer. Taking immediate action is that will assist

in rescuing the girls. I work for the President. And I work for him 24

hours a day. I know, the night when the news broke, immediately the

military officials in the country were summoned. The very next day,

the council meeting, Security council meeting was held.

Instructions were given. Actions were taken. Why do you think that

all of these actions that you talk about have failed so completely? For

the same reason that kidnappings over the world continue. It is not

easy. We don't have the number, that it is more than 200 girls. 200 girls

are taken. It is not that the intelligence is not working. We know

where the girls are. But we cannot approach them. Has been so much

confusion about this. There is not. Your know exactly where the girls. I

do not know, I am not a military person. But I rely on what the Chief

of the defence forces said. And they are aware. What a terrible

indictment of your security forces. They know exactly where these girls

are, but it appears they are completely impotent to actually

deliver their rescue. Steven, I am surprised you are saying that. The

Americans are held hostage, 54 of them were held hostage in Tehran. It

took them 444 days to free them. Why are you talking like this is Mac 444

days. They know the value. It is their embassy. The hostages were not

released for 444 days. Their hostages were in the middle of Iran.

Your hostages are in southern Nigerian territory. Yes, it is

extremely difficult to nab a DeLaet navigate. Because we don't want to

lose any of the girls. Unwittingly unwittingly,

expanse of land. 1800 kilometres of desert land. The border between us,

Cameroon, Chad, and Icher, `` Niger. It is difficult terrain, made up of

tools mountains, and forests. You now have assistance from the United

States government will dock that has raised interest in the US Congress

about what has gone on. Just the other day a Pentagon official and

his rant testified. We're looking at a military force in Nigeria that is

afraid engage. And much of the funding that goes to that military,

she said, is skimmed off the top. Which is why their resources are not

adequate to the challenge. I don't know where she got that information

from. We have one of the best military on the continent. We have

records, outstanding records... You have soldiers who are unpaid, who

say themselves that they go hungry and are not deliver the right kind

of food. One told Reuters in Borno recently, that Boko Haram are much

better equipped than we are. He said that they are taking a knife to a

gunfight. I can't take some of this information is credible. Reuters

reported that the President was going to go to Chibok and it was not

true. Reuters were told by official sources he was going. Official

sources? What does that mean? People like you. If I did I would have...

The President did not. I will tell you what. If the President is...

With with respect, I have to give you the opportunity to ask some

questions. Why is the President not prepared to go to Chibok? Who says

he is not prepared to go to Chibok? You have no intention of going

to... I said that Reuters Britain is. Therefore I will not rely on

some of the information. So let's get this straight. Reportedly to be

Nigerian soldiers with their faces shaded. We do know who they are

talking to. That could be anybody. Let us get this straight. The girls

were taken on the evening of April 14. Here we sit more than six weeks

later, the President has not even visited the town where the girls

were abducted from. When is he going to go? I am not going to announce

that. He is going to go there. Believe me, he is going to go there.

We are more concerned, obviously, for you and for everyone else, and

quite rightly so. 270 children have been abducted. They have been

snatched from school. Their parents are in pain. The whole country is in

a very bad mood. It needs a president. But then, when we finish

this, Boko Haram... If you take these girls, if you take other

people. So we are looking at... Will talk about the wider issues in the

minute. A holistic approach. A holistic approach, all right. One

more question on the girls, then the wider security challenge. The last

specific question is this. Mixed messages on one other aspect of the

case. If the government or as the government not prepared to negotiate

with Boko Haram about the principle of prisoner swap for the freedom of

the girls? He has announced that there will not be won. There are

people negotiating right now, are they not? The options are not just

military or negotiations. There are other options. It is a Nigerian

problem. We are going to find a Nigerian solution to this matter. It

doesn't have the fit into the jacket... What is this option you

are talking about? Fine. The President has identified something

that looks like we can tell them to surrender their arms, you will be

granted immunity. We also have information that some of these guys

are getting tired. And they getting anxious to come out. We are ready to

receive them. It is not just B. Also, you have in Nigeria, very

highly credible people, stakeholders who, Boko Haram tend to respect. We

are willing to insure that some kind of discussion takes place and the

girls are released. But it is a Nigerian problem and we will get a

Nigerian solution to the Mac. . It will not confirm to what the world

thinks. We are Nigerians. We have always gotten it right. People want

to give up on us, we always got it right. That is what it means to be

Nigerian. Interesting. So when everyone reports that in

recent months, your security forces have been responsible for not just

dozens, but hundreds of extrajudicial killings, at they

routinely detained and beat suspects, people they believed were

from Boko Haram across the Northeast of your country, it is part of

getting it right? I agreed to this interview because I had to confront

knee`jerk assumptions. These are the same people who said that Nigerian

people bombed 70,000 houses and it all wound up being an international

scam. It was not true, it did not happen and evidence today has proved

the record correct. I have heard governments in many countries say

that Amnesty International is not fair what would you say the same

thing about the US government or the UN secretary for international

affairs? They have been quoted as saying that we have urged the

Nigerian government to approach the situation of Boca ROM where `` Boko

Haram, where attacks are made with impunity, distrust excerpt. We are

dealing with... It is from a human rights perspective. We are dealing

with an interior crisis where the insurgents and Nigerians are no

different from you and I. I want to tell you, a lady in a wheelbarrow

was sitting on an AK`47 in the middle of the town, how do you

distinguish between that and Boko Haram? If I went and arrest the lady

and put her into a car, they would say, oh they are mistreating

people. I am interested in this specific question. Do you think your

boss, the president of Nigeria is aware that every single day, dozens

of bodies are transferred from the military had orders ``

headquarters, a prison to the hospital and Maiduguri with signs of

torture... That is not true. We are suffering from a major orchestrated

issue. Who is orchestrating this conspiracy? That is the problem.

That is the problem. You do not understand the problem of Nigeria.

Some people won an election and now they have power and they feel that

we are not doing what we should be doing in power. Your people want to

take the power, and they have a lot of money and influence and put it

over on Nigerians. That there be any relationship between the militant

movement Boca ROM `` Boko Haram, and the fact that Nigeria is suffering

the most aspect of poverty? That 72% of people in the North and Northeast

are living in the most severe of poverty? They will tell you if you

ask them, this is a result of long`standing neglect by various

governments. Including your own? No! Our government is only three

years old, that is the truth. We have reduced the poverty in three

years. You have sent signals to the people of the Northeast that they

will no longer be neglected. You have to win this war first. You

cannot bring money, you cannot do anything unless this is done. I ask

you as an ex` patriot, would you go? Maybe the people of the

Northeast might take seriously the claims that your government cares

for them... Some substantial amount of money has been put into studying

what we need to be doing after this war, we have allocated budget money

for it, we have already done that. Much would have to be done

specially, and the project is a lot, there will be prosperity everywhere.

It is not just Goodluck Jonathan, any future president cannot neglect

poverty in the country. To address the issue of poverty in the North,

your government will have to address the issue of endemic, systematic

corruption throughout the nation of Nigeria but particularly in your oil

business. You say that you have only been in power three years out what

in three years, has your boss done to root out the systematic

corruption in the oil business? The oil business is one area that we

know has a lot of challenges. Our government has taken a lot of

steps... $20 billion in 18 months siphoned out by the state petroleum

company. You are not an international journalist and I do

not expect you to comment on things that are unreal. That is not my

analysis, that is from the central bank. He started with 50 billion, he

came back to ten billion and he keeps changing the numbers. It is a

joke. It is not true. There is no way that 20 billion would be taken

from the Nigerian economy. It is an absolute farce. Here is what might

be a joke to some Nigerians, that the head of the Central Bank

announces endemic to `` corruption in the state petroleum industry and

within weeks of announcing it is detained, suspended from his job,

his passport was confiscated and the state security... Argue his lawyer?

His case has been tested in court. His allegations are backed by a host

of independent companies including Shell oil. There is an independent

audit that is going on currently and this president has vowed publicly

that once it is concluded, what ever is recommended will be implemented

to the letter, no matter who orders it. Do you agree with your most

successful businessman in the whole of Nigeria, who said the other day

that if you do not tackle the roots of this insurgency, it threatens the

very integrity and future of the Nigerian state. I agree. This is the

most and greatest challenge of this generation in Nigeria. But I told

you, it is a Nigerian problem and we will find a Nigerian solution. We

have always gotten over everything that has targeted us. Why would

anyone in Nigeria believe you now? After your government's record three

years of failure? We have done a lot for the infrastructure. We localised

it. You don't recognise this failure that time talking about? What

failure? There is no failure in the government. I need to remind you

about the achievements of this administration. We got people who

are smart to run the economy, we have some of the best people running

this government. And we have to end there. Doyin Okupe, thank you for

being on HARDtalk. Tuesday will be changing quite a bit

from hour to hour but not for everybody. It will be dry but there