Mario Monti - Prime Minister of Italy (2011 - 2013) HARDtalk

going to be. Time for HARDtalk. Welcome to

HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. Europe is limping out of recession.

The jury row zone hasn't collapse `` eurozone hasn't clapped. That is

what passes for good news inside the EU. The bad news is more obvious.

Unemployment is stubbornly high, so are the debts. European citizens are

frustrated and ail convenient Nated and they sigh Brussels as `` see

Bruceals as par of the problem. My guest is former EU Commission and

Italian Prime Minister Mario Monti. As arguments rage over the identity

of the next EU Commission boss, is the EU about to miss another

opportunity to reform itself? Mario Monti in the Rome. Welcome to

HARDtalk. Pleasure to be here. Would you accept the European Union faces

a very real crisis of legit Massey `` legitmacy right now. The European

Union faced many crisis over time and indeed I wouldn't say a crisis

of legit Massey `` ` legitmacy but a crisis about consensus about the

policy it has been conducting, coupled with a sense in many

countries, not all, that Brussels have been over intrusive. Well, you

say it's more a matter of not ` basic legit a cs but how would you

explain in the second election offence e a row just over how% of

European voters could be bothered to turn out and for those who did a

number larger than ever before voted for parties that are sceptical, if

not downright opposed to the very European Union itself? Yes. I think

the second aspect is more important and worrying than the first one,

because a lot ` it is not something we like, but it is something that

characterises many countries, including, for example, the US, and

so far it is true that citizens, whether they like or dislike the

roon `` European Union they have not seen the governance of Europe as

being so impactful on their daily lives. What is most worrying and,

indeed, to be reflected upon is the second element that you gave, namely

that among those who did vote many, indeed many ` although perhaps not

to the expected level, but many indeed, voted for parties which are

either against all forms of European integration or unhappy with the

present form. I must say you sound a little ` perhaps a little too

comfortable as a strong advocate or European integration, you sound a

little too comfortable about, for example, the result in France where

Marine Le Pen's national front swept the board, they got by far the

biggest number of sweets, approaching 30% of the vote ``

seats, approaching 30% of the vote. Surely that gives you serious pause

for thought? Indeed. I am not comfortable at all, particularly

with the result in France. France is a country which has been not

achieving very much in terms of domestic reforms anyhow, and the

party of Marine Le Pen is like other populist parties, in my view,

identifying issues that are real issues. For example, problems with

migration, problems with delocallisations of companies,

except that again, in my view, most of the recipes of the political

platforms of those populist parties have the advantage of being simple,

I would say simplistic, oversimplistic, and if applied, in

most cases, in my view, they would turn things worse, not better. So,

there is a lot to populist in terms of analysing things that do not

really go well. In most cases what they come out with may well worsen

things even more. Mr Monti, you have over a long career been an advocate

of further and deeper European integration. Are you prepared now to

acknowledge that your arguments have not won the day in Europe and you

haven't taken the European population with you? I have always

been in favour of European integration, but European

integration with a grain of salt. I am a supporter of the idea that

without any prejudice it ` each time in history we assess whether a

certain specific power needs to be more centralised, stay as it is, or

more discentralised. I do not consider closer integration as

neither a good in itself or an evil in itself. Alright. What about

Jean`Claude Juncker the former president of Lux Bourke ``

Luxembrourg, a man who is keen to become next Commissioner, has the

biggest support in the biggest Block, the EPP, do you think he is

the right man for that job at this time? I would not express views on

individual persons. However, what we can say is that, in my view, the

president of the commission should be somebody who is broadly in favour

of the European countries working together, otherwise it could well be

put in charge of the European decommission for that matter, and

then I would agree very much with the British authorities, that

particularly this time one needs to have a very, very strong priority on

the European agenda for economic reform, for a really deep small and

well functioning single market, for trade openness and for a vibrant

competition, and I hope we can talk about this in the next few minutes.

I believe the UK needs to come out even stronger as an advocate of

these forms. Let's talk about what the UK says in the form of Prime

Minister David Cameron. We don't have to talk about specific

individuals, but what he says is what Europe needs in terms of

leadership and what the commission needs is most definitely not any

man, or indeed any woman, any politician, whose views were shaped

in the '70s and '80s and who represents business as usual. Would

you accept that? No. As such, I think it would not do justice to the

richness of Mr Cameron's himself political thinking. There is an

important point there about business as usual. What he is saying is the

next leader of the European commission ` I dare say you might

say it about the next leader of the European council as well ` needs to

be somebody who has a track record of delivering reform, change. That

is, I think, a good point and a track record of the `` of delivering

change which can have been proved at the community level in

responsibilities as Commissioner or other responsibilities, at the

national level, if someone was in charge of being a minister or being

head of a government in a member state. So, I would very much agree

that one needs to have there somebody who has a culture of

reform. With all ` interesting you accept that. With awe dual respect

to Mr Juncker and I know you don't want to get involved in Prime

Minister, a man who has been Prime Minister for more than a decade,

more than anything else an economy built around a tax haven, a man who

led the jury zone finance `` Eurozone finance ministers and at

one point was heard to say he favoured debate in dark and secret

places, he doesn't really seem like an individual who is wedded to the

notion of change and reform. But, you see, that if one ` as I am doing

now, refrains from tackling head`on the issue of the name of the

individual... Why on earth would you do that, Mr Monti? Sorry. This is an

important debate across Europe. If you want Europe to be more

accountable to its people, surely we should be having this debate? Sure.

This does not mean that we should be having it now between you and me,

but I will just ` I was just saying that going beyond names of course

the final decision will have to be on names, but going beyond names,

prompts a dealer analysis like the one you did a moment ago about the

criteria with which to examine one's CV. As a matter of fact, nobody

would take the responsibility of hiring Ned yum `` medium to top

level manager in a company without a proper job description, without a

search and of course the political world is something different. We

must respect that. But I would certainly not be against the setting

of some criteria against which to reckon individual personalities.

Alright. That is a bit opaque, if you don't mind me saying. Let me ask

you a direct question. Let's try... Let's ` here is one not about

personalities. I hope I can get a clear answer from you. There is a

raging debate now amongst European leaders and politicians about the

wisdom of allowing the European Parliament to, in effect, say we

have the right to declare who should be the next president of the

commission through our own majority process. That's why the EPP block

claims it has the right to select Mr Juncker as the favoured the

candidate. David Cameron, but not just him, many others, the Prime

Minister in Sweden and arguably even your own Prime Minister in Italy are

very worried about this principle and they don't believe the European

Parliament was ever in the his bond treaty `` Lisbon Treaty accorded

this kind of power. What is your view? They are right, the European

Parliament was never given the power to decide on the president of the

commission. All the limit isbon Treaty says is the European council,

that is the heads of state and governments, should designate the

president of the commission having regard, I think is the expression,

to the result of the European elections. Then there is the

subsequent discretionary appreciation by the European

Parliament on whether to rent the confidence or not to the president

of the commission. I think all these issues are not easy to understand

and... Well, Mr Monti, I am going to keep trying simple questions then.

Let's keep it as simple as we can. OK. Rising out of this argument over

who should be the next commission president, David Cameron reportedly

said to Angela Merkel that if it goes to a man like Juncker, in David

Cameron's view, an inappropriate choice, it could well hasten

Britain's departure from the European Union. My sim `` simple

question is there ` do you care? I care enormously. You probably are

not aware ` you may not be aware of the fact that when the fiscal

compact was negotiated early December 2011, I was then Prime

Minister. So, I was at the table of the European council. I was among

those who proposed certain mediations to Mr Cameron for him to

be able to say yes to that treaty, and as we come to the next stage,

namely the referendum on any change of the treaty that Mr Cameron seeks

to achieve before 2017, I am passionately for the UK to remain a

member of the European Union. I never insisted honestly for it to be

also a member of the jury zone. I think `` Eurozone. It is crucial for

the UK and for Europe for the rest of Europe, I should say, that the UK

stays a member of the ` of the European Union and becomes more `

can I say ` aggressive in its proposals, rather than like they did

in 2011, seeking a sort of a carve out of the city of London from any

future financial regulation. What I am proposing to the UK is be bold.

Cameron want fundamental changes in the relationship between the EU and

member states, in particular Britain. He is already talking about

fundamental changes to ensure that limits can be put right national

government on a number of people coming into the country from those

member states who have much lower GDP per capita, for example. He is

talking about national governments taking back powers in terms of

social directives, working time and things like that. You are suggesting

to me that Cameron should wish is really hard, are you? Cameron should

put... Push harder not exactly this light a more general concept and

concrete concept of the single market. Now, on free movement of

people it is a recent development. Perhaps to reflect the concerns of

UKIP and others that the British government has become more

cautious. In the past, the British government was much older. If we

look at the single market for services which is, as you know, now

70% of Europe's GDP. There, there is a much more to be done. Honestly,

the countries which drag on in the Liberal evasion of services or in

building a serious digital single market are normally the large

economies and continental Europe. Like France, Germany, sometimes

Italy. I would like, for one, to see the UK take the flag up again of the

single market. Take a strong leadership role and Sadie: OK, I

will not consider that being a member of the EU is worthwhile

unless we all collectively are more in`line with what we want... I

understand what you are saying and it seems that the single market is

an area where Cameron and you have something in common... A lot in

common. Here is the thing, Cameron ultimately have to do is wait his

own party and people perhaps more sceptical that he has repatriated

significant powers back to the UK if he is to go to this referendum and

recommend Britain to stay in the EU. What you think the chances are of

the EU collectively giving him about repatriation of powers that he says

he must have? It depends on what he concretely asks for. Because, for

example, if he asks for repatriation of powers, that would make it easier

for each national government to play with the rules with which a single

market for services is created. Well, I would recommend that the

rest of Europe say a square: no. Even if that means the EU `` the UK

quits the EU? There is a more intelligent way for the UK to take

up a dominant role in Europe at their condition. For example,

saving, let's be finally serious on the single market for services.

Let's make sure that an infringement, a violation of the

single market can be tackled by the European Commission, by the European

Court of Justice. As a matter of speed, priority. Is it a credible

single market? Market where if a member state are wrecked an obstacle

against, let's say it free movement of goods, before that obstacle is

dismantled, a legal processes lasting for five or six years is

necessary. I would like the UK to be pushing and if this course is taken

by the UK, it will happen that unlike in 2011 with the physical

combat, the UK will immediately stabilise Denmark Sweden, the Czech

Republic... A few allies, maybe. Sorry to rush you might finally on

Europe, a former French Prime Minister, Socialist PM says the

truth is the UK never wanted to be in the EU. They joined on the basis

of a misunderstanding of what the EU was about and they must go before

they entirely destroyed the project. This is definitely a

position which is not at all my own. I must say to Mr Cameron is anything

but I would like the UK to be bold. But not to corner itself. And to ask

things that it can obtain with a number of alliances, especially if

it does not come to the table with positions that are almost, in

principle, unacceptable. I am all for UK to be bold, to be successful

and it should not be so difficult for the UK to be also slightly more

diplomatic than sometimes it is. Before we end, I want to continue

this theme about the changing architecture of the EU. We don't

know, frankly, after 2017 whether Britain will be a member of the EU.

The balance, the dynamic between the two sort of pillar countries of the

EU, Germany and France is a fundamentally changed. You have that

in the past and you have talked about your fears for France. Do you

believe that, because of the weakness of the French economy,

perhaps because of its political system right now that there is a

fundamentally damaging imbalance at the heart of Europe between France

and Germany? Germany is sometimes called her reluctant hegemony. That

is true. We cannot ask one particular country to become

weaker, we should be and I think I equal Mr Cameron's terminology here,

we should all be competitive in our continent plus the island is. You

are alluding to this, a journalist said growing German power and

growing resentment of power are the main themes right now in European

politics. Would you agree and how worried are you? I am very worried

about it. That is the reason why when I was Prime Minister and I had

to take very, very tough measures, I always avoided the easy way out of

telling Parliament or the Italian public opinion, sorry we have to do

that because Germany or the ECB or Brussels asks us to do so. That was

the reality and it still is. No, it was not the reality because it is

not Germany that asks us to do those things. These are all things that we

have subscribed to. In the treaty, in the stability pact, honestly it

is also possible, if Germany tries to exceed the relative to what is

written there, it is also possible to avoid that. For example, in a

European Council in June 2012, I, with a few other colleagues

exercised quite a bit of pressure on some Nordic heads of government like

Germany, Finland, the Netherlands. And we obtained a position that

facilitated vastly the interventions of the ECB. We have to end but the

North, south split within the European Union, the fragmentation

potential is not going to go away, is it was yellow it needs to be

tackled as may be the number one problem. I think, let's be frank.

The next parliament, the next council in my view have to build

three bridges. One between north and south within the eurozone. To,

between the eurozone and the UK and three, between old member state and

new member states. It is all about bridge building. That is a great

lion to enter because we have run out of time. Mario Monti, thank you

very much for joining us from Rome. Thank you.

The trend over the next day also is for things to dry out across the

country. Today it looks largely bright and warm. There will be a

fair bit of cloud around for some but the vast majority can look

forward to