Anthony Loyd - War Correspondent HARDtalk

Welcome to HARDtalk. More than 06 journalists have been killed in

Syria's Civil War. Across the world, journalists have become target, as

never before. Murdered. Kidnapped and in the case of three Al-Jazeera

journalists in Egypt, locked up by the state for doing their jobs. My

guest today is Anthony Loyd, the award-winning war correspondent of

the times newspaper, who was shot and seriously injured in Syria last

month. Is the fear factor forcing journalists to retreat from the

front line? Anthony Loyd, welcome to HARDtalk.

You came back from your most crept reporting assignment in Syria,

bearing scars, physical scars, mental scars as well. Are they

healing right now? They are, I feel pretty good and pretty strong,

considering what happened for the experience of being bound,

blindfolded, beaten and shot. I feel quite strong on the back of it. You

put it in a way so Blythly there, but for people who round the world

who are not aware of what happened to you, we need to describe in some

detail how it happened. You had been going to Syria I believe more than

ten time, up to a dozen times since the start of the conflict there.

What was different this time? Why did it go so badly wrong? This time

it went bandly wrong for a reason that could have occurred on any of

the dozen or 14 assign.s I have done in Syria, we were betrayed by

someone we trusted, who decided at a point we still don't know, that we

were no longer worth being his friendly disposition and we should

be treated as a financial commodity. This is a rebel fighter? This is a

rebel fighter. A medium level commander in a fairly small town in

northern Syria, someone we had known for a long time over the course of

the last two-and-a-half years, it wasn't a few chance meetings. I

think I stayed with him probably four or five times in the last two

years, for periods of up to five or six days. Jack Hill the from

photographer staled with him too. Probably about three or four other

times journalists or photographers had stayed with man Hakim. You

didn't just know him, you trusted him. I wonder if you regarded him as

a friend? In way, I would have described him as a friend, yes, I

trusted him and he in his time was solicitor to us and kind to us. In

the way of Islamic traditions in the Middle East. He was an excellent

host, he looked after wassel. He took us off to the front line with

his men. He was brave in the way he looked after us and would drive us

across dangerous areas at night. He treated us very well. There was good

reason on the experience of his relationship with us in

two-and-a-half years to trust him. Then, back in May, just a few weeks

ago, you had been on a what was a very dangerous assignment in Aleppo,

dangerous because it's a war-torn city where the fighting continues,

you had come out of the city, you had gone to this safe house, you

thought, on your way into Turkey, at the end of your assignment, and you

discovered the hardest way possible that this man had decided you were

to become something to be profited from, but how did he do it? It was

ironic, as he left Aleppo, we left it on a single road, under heavy

fire, heavy direct fire which nearly took out my escort vehicle, with

four fighters who who were looking after me, I was with Jack Hill. We

drove on, out of Aleppo. By the time we cleared that road, he

drove on, out of Aleppo. By the time tar fat for no other reason that to

pay our respects to Hakim and to congratulate him on the recent birth

of his latest child, his little girl. So that was the reason, it was

a social reason to stop. He was going to escort you out They were

going to escort us out. We stayed the night in one of his house, we

dined with him, there was no indication, not a slightest pointer

that anything was wrong. The next morning left at 8.30 in the morning,

we asked him for escorts, because we were in a zone controlled by his

unit or a unit he would have done, he had a small group of guys so we

were given an escort, to do the final leg between the town and the

Turkish border, a journey of perhaps 30 minutes. As we said goodbye to

him, left with an escort vehicle up the front, about 15 minutes later,

by which time to me the assignment was almost finished. The Turkish

border was almost in sight, we went over the lip of a hill, and there,

heading in the same direction but at a slow speed was a dark coloured BMW

X 5 and everything about that vehicle, its speed, its position in

the road, told me that we were just about to be hit by kidnap gangs.

Which is the case, and to sort of telescope this story a bit, you were

forced out of your vehicle, into another vehicle, you were taken to

one and then a second sort of safe house, you were bound, ultimately, a

couple of your colleagues escaped. Then you tried to run too, but you

were then captured. There was a very violent and confused escape attempt.

We had been separated as a group within a vehicle, two of us were in

the boot and another two were in different parts of the vehicle. All

of us bound, and blindfolded, in a lock up garage, that, which had at

times one or two guards alongside the vehicle, who would thump the

vehicle and rock it or occasionally reach in and strike us, just to keep

us subjugated. At some point, the key figure here, our fixer, in the

boot, noticed that the boot was open ha half an inch so we wouldn't

suffocate. He managed, I don't know how, to slip out of his bonds, he

knew as a Syrian he was likely to be killed later that night, being of no

monetary value to the kidnappers, so he whispered his plan to Jack. They

overpowered the guard, at which point a very confused escape

attempt. They go off in one direction, I go off in another, over

the roofs, ultimately, the two Syrian staff escaped. Jack Hill was

recaptured by Hakim's men and I was recaptured too but not before I had

seen from the roofs that Jack had been overpowered in street by Hakim,

and his gang, and I could look down from the perspective of two storeys

up on Hakim, the guy who hosted us the night before beating Jack Hill

and he laid on the ground. Then he got do you eventually and he got do

you with a weapon. He got to me, I knew but was advantaged because some

locals saw us, there was no plan to escape, it happened. We hadn't

communicated among ourself, so it is a confusing scenario, I am bound,

running across the roofs. Local people had seen me. I am optimistic

that would count to my vantage. I dropped down into a compound, get

into a kitchen. I am trying to cut through the clamps with a knife

between my teeth. I heard a door getting kicked in, a load of armed

guards run in. They are Hakim's men, Hakim is in the street. He has a

weapon. I am beaten. They walk me up to him I said "I thought you were

our friend" and he pulled his gun and shot me. He pulled his gun and

shot you. A man you had known for two-and-a-half year, you at that

point thought you were going to die? Looking back, I can think that was a

pretty bad moment, but at the time, the event horizon was so short, and

I was so hyper adrenalised, that I was playing for the next second or

two. By the time I realised he had his gun, he has already shot me. At

which point I thought, well that was the double or quits moment, and I

will probably get away with this now because he didn't shoot me in the

head. He shot you in the lower leg, the ankle. Yes And you can

thankfully still walk. I am very lucky. Both bullets went in slightly

different directions, smashing up a bit but nothing too important. I

have spoken to you before a number of years ago, you struck me as a

journalist living on the edge. You have been even closer to the edge

now. I just wonder, I began by asking you not just about physical

wounds but mental wounds, how damaged have you been by what you

experienced in Syria, mentally? I don't think I have been that

damaged. We vexed the bad guy, we were deceived, we were bound, and

blindfolded, we were not armed. Yet at the end of it, we were the ones

who escaped, having identified that gang for what they were, a criminal

kidnap gang, leaving them to soak in their own bath water of infamy in

that part of northern Syria while we made good our escape. I feel pretty

strong psychologically. Do you, the point of the story surely, is that

entirely unconsciously you made a drastically bad judgment about this

man Hakim, you know, you thought he was trustworthy and he wasn't, and

it just raises all sorts of questions about whether journalists

in Syria today can, however experienced they are, have any real

idea of where the front lines are, who the guys they can trust are, it

just seems impossible. No. I don't think that is right. Sure, the

judgment was mine that we could trust Hakim, but betrayal is a

characteristic that there is potential in any human relation she

ship. It has in war. The prospect of betrayal is with the risks the same

as getting shot, blown up, something as be natural as your fixer doesn't

turn up on time. War is an extreme example, but betrayal, you know, is

a potential eventuality. So I was right to judge Hakim logically on

the basis of our relationship of two, two-and-a-half years. And right

to trust him. As it happened, things had happened in his life, I don't

know what they were... Did he try to contact you, in the weeks since this

happened have you had any contact with him? There was one brief

contact before I closed down the means of contact which was a

slightly nonsensical tirade about 24 hours later, and threatening as

well, saying don't mention my name or, he did try to say after, he said

we were spies and he tried to say that after, because he would have

to, that would have to be his justification to his own people

about why he did that to us. How do you feel about him now? Hate? No,

depend what kind of time of day you ask that question. I don't feel

hugely well disposed to him or his gang, but on the other hand, while

hugely well disposed to him or his we were his captives, the problem

was ours, as soon as we went over the fulcrum point of escape and Iraq

side Syria, the problem is their, him and his gang are an individual

and a group who have a reputation for making extremely bad decisions

and big mistakes, they are living in a Terry where there are serious

consequences for those mistake, so the situation is theirs now, it is

not mine, I am free. Let us talk noter about Syria and perhaps link

it to what is happening in Iraq, right now we see that swathes of

territory in Syria, perhaps even larger swathes of Terry in Iraq are

in the hands of the most extreme -- Terry, from the so-called ISIS

group, the Islamist state of Iraq, and they have made public their

desire to target journalist, they see journalists as agents of the

determined to get as close to the determined to get as close to the

witness to what is happening in places like Syria and Iraq, do you

see any possibility to go into areas, under the control

see any possibility to go into No, not under the control of ISIS. I

don't think, I don't think at all, I think that is, I have come close to

having a big problem with ISIS, in the months before it was completely

obvious who they were and what they were doing inside Syria. You have

met some of them in Syria? Yes, You have come away from that convinced,

you came away from it for a start which is perhaps miraculous in a

way, but you came away convinced that if you were to try to establish

any sort of journalistic contact with them, what, you would end up

dead or kidnapped? Yes, ISIS don't believe in, they have no interest in

journalists from democratic countries, coming to exercise their

right to freedom of speech or anything like that, that is just not

how they see the world. They see the States, the institutions, the

Governments of democratic countries as rotten, and they see journalists

as the agents of that rot, there is no desire from ISIS to have western

journalist, along. They have their own media organisations, and they

have no interest in western journalists coming along to report

fairly on what they are doing. Given the fluidity of front lines and the

increasing power they seem to be exercising, it raises the question

of whether even for the, you know, the bravest courageous of war

reporters, there are conflicts today, I am thinking of Syria and

Iran, which are becoming almost unreportable. It is very very

difficult. Iraq has been difficult for a long time. It became difficult

quickly after the Americans invaded to work among local people there. I

would say Syria is still just about possible, not to go into the areas

ISIS are controlling. What happened to me was unfortunate, but you have

to remember that by working war you are working in an environment where

every day people round you are shot, abducted, beaten. It is possible and

has always been so, that that might happen to a journalist, you can't

exclude the possibility of that happening to you. Of course, you

have to accept the risks are very high. A very brave Italian

journalist said high. A very brave Italian

journalist this recently, she said, if we journalists are around or not,

Syrians see no difference. We have become the mirror and expression of

the international community's cynicism on Syria. I understand what

she is saying, but I don't think journalists should stop doing their

work just because of someone's perception of their work. They

should be true to their own integrity. We do our job not to

affect change, but at its purist, to report. It is someone else's job if

they are going to change the situation, the policy. We do our

job, to report. Now there is a point at which that might not be possible,

for example ISIS controlled territory. And there is a grey area

where it may be possible but at high risk. I don't think that's true

across the board, that perspective. I met people in Aleppo who were

still happy to see me. There were rebel fighters who were not only

happy to see me but they understand the need of having journalists. We

can't just close down everybody's eyes on Syria by not reporting. If

you believe it makes very little difference any more what you report

and how much you bear witness, because the world is now familiar

with the suffering of Syria, because the world is now familiar

with the suffering and frankly adding one more element to the story

may not make much difference at all. Human nature may suggest that if

that is in your mind, it is hard to get jewels of ready to take the

risks you have to take. I didn't find it too difficult. -- get

yourself ready. Your own editor has said very publicly about whether he

could let you go back again to Syria... He has committed a lot to

Syria. Until this point. And he has seen one of his staff escaped death

by that much. And another one was killed. Marie Colvin was killed in

mutton. People like your boss or going to find it very hard to

sanction your next trip to Syria. -- was killed in Homs. I would go back

to Syria, but in practice it would be foolish with the gang still at

large. In principle, I would go back. Things change in war,

situations change, people get removed, disappear, go elsewhere. In

essence, our job is to report. The necessity of bearing witness

transcends the perspective of other people towards journalists. Until

the point it becomes impossible. In Syria, it's not impossible still.

There are still journalists there now. You have worked across the

Middle East. I don't know if you have worked in Egypt. I lived there

for three years as a foreign correspondent. I am amazed and

horrified at what has happened to the three Al Jazeera journalists

doing their jobs, two of them have seven-year sentences and the third

man a 10-year sentence. It's horrifying. I just wonder whether

you today in Egypt would confront the reality that if you try to talk

to the Muslim brotherhood, you might well end up with a long jail term.

Would you do it or would you self censor? Would you avoid that? I

wouldn't self censor and avoid that. I would have to think for some time

beforehand. It is a different set of worries. Peter Greste and his two Al

Jazeera colleagues have been persecuted and jailed by a state.

Doing their job. That said a message to journalists around the world. It

is a whole set of different problems to what happens to me, I was taken

down by a criminal gang that was an offshoot of a rebel organisation. I

understand that but you strike me as a journalist who has a pretty black

and white view of your desire to bear witness and I am just wondering

whether, leaving aside the chaos that is Syria or Iraq today, but

enter the world of Egypt where a state has sent a message to

journalists saying, you abide by our rules, you play our game or we will

imprison you. What would your response be that? My response would

be to my editor that it would probably be easier to work in rebel

areas of Syria planned to work in a state-controlled area where the

state has sent a message as clearly as that. So you would not interview

with the Muslim brotherhood right now? I think the example of what has

happened to Peter Greste and his colleagues is an example which will

require a lot of reflection for anybody thinking of going to Egypt.

I haven't been asked to go... It's a difficult question to answer. I

wonder, by getting quite personal with you, because you have written a

lot about your motivations for journalism, and if your desire to be

on the front line... You have talked about adrenaline, the desire to push

your experience to the very edge and you have linked it to what was an

addictive personality and that for a time as a young man you had problems

with drink and drugs. How much have you changed since then? I think I

have changed a lot. I have been a journalist for 21 years. Some of my

motivations are the same. I would still say to anyone it's a very

exciting job, but one gets more altruistic as one gets older. If I

may say, you were quite narcissistic in your early days. Very. It was

almost as much about you as it was to bearing witness. 21 years ago, I

am 47 years old, one does learn humility and a bit

am 47 years old, one does learn the way. I am very interested in the

people on whom I report. What is interesting about that, many would

say if you have spent 21 years seeing human nature at its worst,

sometimes at its most depraved, the likelihood is that you would become,

frankly, more cynical, and you are saying you have become more

altruistic. Definitely, but the example of getting shot and beaten

up and whatnot... There were a lot of decent people there that day, a

lot of decent Syrians who were not only appalled at what happened to me

but helped me. There were moments of humour and kindness. From Syrians.

During some very extreme moments. I don't regard this as a wholly bad

experience. It was one of those things that happened. It was pretty

bleak. By the time you ended up as I did, naked wearing just handcuffs,

covered in blood, badly beaten with two gunshot wounds, you are hardly

thinking, this is a really smooth moving assignment. But there were

also moments of kindness and humour and eventually it was Syrians who

passed me across the border to Turkey. But you still have your

medical boot on, still unable to walk properly. In your mind, you

have no doubt that you will go back to those front lines and those

conflicts? No doubt at all. Because? This is an eventuality I didn't seek

or want, but I work in an environment where people get shot

and beaten up everyday. I didn't want this, but I actually feel

slightly advantaged by it. When I speak to people about jail, getting

beaten, getting shot and whatnot, at least I can speak to people now with

the empathy and understanding of knowing what it is like. Anthony

Loyd, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you very much

indeed. When Barbara and I

started the Review, we were seeking to examine

the workings and the truthfulness

of establishments.