Salih Muslim Mohammed - Democratic Union Party, Syria HARDtalk

outside London. Now on BBC News, it's time for

HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. The extremist group ISIS is expanding

its foothold in Syria, after its recent gains in neighbouring Iraq.

The first town it seized was Raqqa in northern Syria a year ago. It

holds parts of Aleppo province in the north as well as more territory

on the border with Iraq. ISIS is now engaging in battles with other rebel

groups in Syria, splintering efforts by the opposition who now find

themselves battling both ISIS forces and government troops. What does the

advance of ISIS mean for moderate secular opposition groups inside

Syria? My guest is Salih Muslim Mohammed, leader of Syrian Kurdish

party the PYD, which is part of the National Coordination Body for

Democratic Change, a secular, pro`democracy coalition inside

Syria. Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. What

does the declaration of an Islamic state in Iraq and Syria by ISIS mean

for Syria? It was created in Syria, actually, and I think that ISIS

itself is just a tool that is being used. They started from Syria, got

the power, and then we saw it extend into Iraq. You say they are being

used as a tool. By whom? By those forces who have their interests in

the Middle East and also by some sides in the Middle East themselves.

Could you spell that out for us, please? LAUGHTER. You say that ISIS

is the creation of some powers. Which ones? Powers with interest in

the Middle East. Maybe members of NATO. Which country? Are you talking

about Western nations? Members of NATO? Powerful nations in the Middle

East? Yes, in what they are saying. For example, the US and the UK and

France are involved in the changes from the Middle East since the

beginning. Are you honestly saying that you think these Western powers

you have just named are behind ISIS? Is that what you are saying? From

the beginning, yes. Well. That is something that is not borne out by

the kind of statements we have had from Western leaders. William Hague

says that ISIS represents a threat to the UK as well as countries it

operates in in the Middle East. ISIS was born between all of the

extremist powers in the Middle East. They were supporting them. Maybe in

Syria, Libya and others. But maybe they did not expect an organisation

like ISIS before, the first time. But then things changed. ISIS

itself, it has come from those extremist Muslims in Syria and the

other countries. You are talking about ISIS, which is an offshoot of

Al`Qaeda. And even Al`Qaeda's leader, Ayman al`Zawahiri, has

described ISIS as to extreme. And they have said that they feel that

they have a very strange interpretation of Islam. How can you

then say in the same breath that an offshoot of Al`Qaeda deemed to

extreme by Al`Qaeda is being backed by the West? Actually, Al`Qaeda and

ISIS are just the name. Everybody has their own ISIS full job in the

Syrian region, also, they have groups inside ISIS. And in other

countries. Because of that, maybe many sides use ISIS for their own

aims full of white back but the fact of the matter is, do you feel that

ISIS is a threat to Syria? And you are a Syrian from the Kurdish ethnic

group. How much of a threat does I suppose to Syria, whoever is backing

it? Whoever they are now, they are a threat not just to the Kurdish

people of Syria but all of the Middle East as well because we have

told European countries many times that we are defending democracy in

the Middle East, so we consider ourselves the first front of

defending democracy. They are a danger for everybody. We have heard

President Obama say he was making a request to Congress for $500 million

and that perhaps this would be used to help Ulster what is known as the

moderate, secular opposition forces inside Syria of whom your party, a

Kurdish Syrian party, the PYD, is included. You believe in equality,

your coleader is a woman. Is this the right approach? That Barack

Obama is right to support movements like yours? It is not just the US

but all the countries like Europe and so on, they should consider this

way. In the PYD, we are fighting against ISIS for more than one year

now and we were alone and nobody supported us. I was in Europe many

times to say that ISIS was a danger for Europe as well but nobody

listened. Now, are they listening? Now that you have this move by the

Americans to try to perhaps bolster... I will say what Barack

Obama said on the 29th of May. He says, as frustrating as it is, there

are no easy answers, no military solution that can alleviate the

suffering any time soon. But we want to offer support to those in the

Syrian opposition who offer the best alternatives to terrorism and a

dictator. I hope they will implement that. Until now, we were alone. And

of course, we are ready to co`operate with anyone who wants to

defend democracy. Not just the US but any country that wants to defend

democracy. We can do this hand in hand and with cooperation. Is there

still that danger that the Americans have consistently stated in the

conflict in Syria, that if they do send weapons, they do not know who

will end up having them and that they may fall into the hands of

extremists rather than the moderate opposition? That has always been a

deterrent. This is a big mistake. He said the weapons to whoever will use

them. It has been difficult from the beginning. Not only weapons but

humanitarian aid should be given to civilians. A lot of money from that

aid went to buy weapons for those groups. That is the point, isn't it?

It is difficult. The Russian Foreign Ministry issued a statement on the

30th of June, saying that if these additional $500 million are made

available by the American Congress, to use their words, it will boost

the terrorist caliphate. They say, we urge our partners in the

international community not to take sides that lead to the build`up

rather than the containment of the terrorist and extremist threat in a

turbulent region such as the Middle East. I think they should be careful

because... We have the Al`Nusra Front as well, and they call that a

part of the Free Syria Army. If they are going to be supported... They

are also an Islamist party but not as hard line. Is the Saudis. They

can co`ordinate with Al`Qaeda and ISIS at any time. Not only the

people but the idea, the organisation, the mentality, is

against the people. Everybody should be very careful. Are you saying,

then, that as a member of Syria's moderate and secular opposition, do

you want help from the international community at this critical time in

Syria, when ISIS is increasing its foothold in the country? Or do you

agree there is a possibility that weapons and aid could fall into the

wrong hands? We are supportive of these international forces

diplomatically and politically and even by any means, we must

co`operate because the danger is not only for Syria or the Kurdish

people, it is for everybody. So we have to be united against this

danger. Are you saying that international help is absolutely

critical? Yes. Will you get the kind of help that you think you need? The

problem is mainly ISIS and the others. It was a mistake by some to

support them and they get bigger and bigger. And that has become a

danger. So, we need international forces, where everybody, maybe

regional organisations, will come together to stop it. Nobody seems to

be pinning much hope on President Obama's support for a moderate

opposition. The editor of one magazine said the solution was

exerting massive pressure on a regime through supporting the

opposition. Is that correct? They are slaughtering the people on the

streets. It is dangerous. And ISIS is more dangerous for everybody. And

they have spread. If you consider the regime, it is just the inside

Syria. But ISIS has expanded. Yesterday, they want Iraq. The next

day, they go to Lebanon, Jordan. Are you saying and let us be clear that

ISIS is a bigger threat in Syria to the people of Syria than the

government of Bashar al`Assad? No. I think Bashar al`Assad is maybe a

danger for Syria only. For the Syrian people. But for all over the

world and in the Middle East, ISIS is very dangerous. If that is the

case, do you agree with Ryan Crocker, a former US diplomat, who

has been aged format `` who has said, do we really want a country in

the hands of Al`Qaeda instead of a solution that involves Bashar

al`Assad? And to consider that as bad as he is, there is something

worse? Bashar al`Assad is a dictator who has ruled Syria during very

difficult times. But we should not `` connected the fate of `` we

should not connect the fate of an entire people to one person. A

transitional government. Whatever we agree on it... But as a precaution

for leaving. And we will discuss... If you just said that ISIS

represents a bigger threat to the region and globally than Bashar

al`Assad does, the logic of what you have just said is what Ryan Crocker

has stated, which is therefore, in Syria, it may be better for us to

hang onto Bashar al`Assad because the alternative rightly was. ``

might be worse. It is not one or the other. Both are not carry for the

Syrian people. The Syrian people want to get rid of ISIS and also

they want to get rid of Bashar al`Assad.

Is the situation on the rise, you are putting the opposition in that

position, you had to fight on both sides, for the government forces and

the extremists of Isis? We have done it before. We were with the

government at the beginning, now, we do not have the government on the

borders, in the Kurdish areas. We have Isis. You mention the Kurdish

areas, obviously, Syria's Kurds, that is about 2 million or 10% of

the population. Your party, the PYD, established in 2003, the Democratic

Union Party, it pretty much controls three unconnected areas in northern

Syria. In November of last year, you declared it the administration, the

transitional administration of Western Kurdistan, and so on. You

have these three unconnected areas, 50 kilometres between them, what do

you want to do with them? Would you like independence for them? ,

actually, no. Firstly, we are not the PYD doing all of this. The

components of the area, we have Syria, and Arabs sharing in this

Administration. Maybe, the idea is from PYD. Because it is a

predominantly Kurdish population? That is right. They established a

council, a representative of the people, and they decided to

establish it. Not me. You are the co` PYD leader. You are going along

with it. That is right. You have courts, and police forces, and so

on. That is right. That is in the area. The question is, what do you

see as your vision for it, independence? Greater autonomy? Not

at all. We said this from the beginning. We are a democratic

force, we had to stay as a democracy. We are trying to

establish a democratic Syria for the future. What we are doing is part of

the solution at the end. And, keeping Syria and the people

together. Until recently, we collected the opposition on one

side, on one delegation. I guess the regime, at least, to sit with the

regime... As they have done in general as well. You are talking

about the paralysed peace process at the moment? In Geneva, with

government spokespeople and delegates meeting with the umbrella

opposition group. Sticking with your Kurdish areas, you run the People's

protection unit, you even have your own force. I had to put this to you,

and International Crisis Group report on the Middle East in May

said that the fact that you have these forces is one of the reasons

why you have managed to maintain control of these predominantly

Kurdish areas. But the most important factor is your de facto

alliance with the regime? Which handed territories over to you,

while continuing to give support to those territories. You have heard

these criticisms before, that in effect, the al`Assad regime has

turned a blind eye and allowed you to run the territory. No, that is a

mistake to say that. At the beginning, we were fighting, we are

struggling against this regime, that was since 2004. Since the uprising.

Everyone knows, and since then we are struggling against the regime.

This is first, and secondly, in our areas, we support against the

regime. We had casualties, and many people fighting `` we fought against

the regime. Until a few days ago, we had clashes against the regime

also. They are now attacking the situation because Isis is within our

borders. We have a war, they have a war against us. They are attacking

our areas. The regime is far away. Politically, the regime would not

open another front for them. For this war. Especially, they have

experience of the Kurdish people in 2004. You refute those criticisms

that come from various quarters? Not only the International Crisis Group,

that you have a de facto alliance? Yes. Now, your focus is on Isis,

these three areas. They are fighting. They are the ones

controlling these parts. This territory between your lands. They

are attacking these areas. We are defending ourselves. Still looking

at how you are running these dominant Kurdish areas in Syria,

Human Rights Watch has also criticised what has been going on.

The deputy Middle East director said that there were serious abuses

taking place in these areas. Arbitrary arrests, abuse in

detention, abductions and murders, and the use of children under the

age of 18 as soldiers. They say "the PYD is firmly in charge in cohort of

the abuse, and can do more in protecting the human rights of

everyone in the areas it controls". What do you say to that? Yes, we

have an official answer to the report of Human Rights Watch. I hope

you have seen it. Anyway, we accept our mistakes. And now, what we are

doing, we are trying to build the democracy in our areas. And defend

these areas against Isis from the others. You try to make sure any

human rights abuses do not take place. In the three areas, including

territory along the Turkish border. How many people are in this

territory that you control? You mention 2 million, I don't agree

with you, I think about 3 million. We also have 500,000 people

displaced from other areas. We are sharing everything. Sharing

everything with them. 10% of the population approximately, we can

argue figures. OK. It is about 10% of the Syrian population. I want to

look at the wider Kurdish picture, now that the president of the

Kurdish regional autonomous area in northern Iraq has said what has gone

on in Iraq over the fast `` over the past few weeks means that Iraq is

effectively partitioned and he will therefore press for a referendum on

independence in a few months. He intends to hold it then. How far

will that embolden other Kurds in the region, like you, to seek

greater autonomy or even independence? I think the idea of

him belongs to one nation, to save different opinions, for the future,

and diffuse what is going on. We think independence is not the

solution for the area, and for the Kurdish people at this moment.

Perhaps in the future, we don't know what will happen. At this time, it

isn't convenient for the Kurdish people. We are looking for self

administration rules. We are not going to change any borders between

those countries. Of course, the Kurds should be united. They speak

for everybody, and especially, they are targeting the Kurdish people.

Including in South Kurdistan. Because of that, the Kurdish people

should be united to defend themselves. All Kurdish people,

looking at how you are distributed across the Middle East, over 7

million in Iraq, 7.7 in Iran, 18 million Kurds in Turkey, and as we

say, about 10% of the population, around 2 million, in Syria. The

professor of Middle Eastern studies at the London School of economics

said that it was too early to talk about the emergence of a greater

Kurdistan, and imagined community of Kurds resonates deeply among Kurds

among Syria, Kurdistan, Iran and Iraq. Kurdistan is not a dream but

becoming a reality. When will we see this? With this idea, I think for

everyone, we should be clear. All of the parts of Kurdistan, they should

have their own rights in their own country which they belong in. In

Turkey, they should have issues with their problems with Turkey and Iraq,

and in Syria... So everybody does the same thing? Yes, it is not a

bigger Kurdistan. It is the democratic rights for the people.

Salih Muslim Mohammed, thank you very much for coming HARDtalk. ``

for coming on HARDtalk. Thank you. Hello again, good morning, warmer

weather is on the way for many of us today, we are seeing some changes

coming in from the north`west, you can see it clearly on the satellite

picture, this cloud comes in from the Atlantic. Looking worse than it

is, a lot of it is high cloud spilling southwards. It will mainly

affect Scotland and Northern