Armando Guebuza - President of Mozambique HARDtalk

the 1990s of sex offences against young girls, but insisted he was no

longer a danger to children. Now it's time for HardTalk. Peace and

security was one of the topics discussed at the US`Africa summit in

Washington. Mozambique is one African country that suffered a long

and brutal civil war. It ended more than 20 years ago when the ruling

Frelimo Party signed an accord with the rebel Renamo movement. But now

Renamo guerrillas have gone back into the bush. My guest is Armando

Guebuza, president of Mozambique. Is his country in danger of slipping

back into conflict? Armando Guebuza, welcome. Thank

you. How worried that the peace at Mozambique has enjoyed since 1982

could be at an end? It is worrying that after 21 years of development

in the country and an environment in which everybody could talk and

expressed their views and participate in the construction of

the country, the leader of Renamo decided to go to the bush.

Nevertheless, we understand the way to overcome

that and address the problems is by setting and talking. `` sitting. We

have been doing that sometime. Let's talk about how worried you are.

South Africa's minister of service says that Mozambique was at war for

a long time. It is a worry that after enjoying peace a long time, it

could revert back to violence or two armed confrontation. What is the

likelihood of Mozambique slipping back into conflict? What happened is

that some Renamo people decided to attack some areas. Following orders

of the leader, and he has confessed that many times. They said they

returned to the bush in June because hostilities started in October

because of attacks on their headquarters. It is interesting

because back in recent history, they started by attacking the population

in the main route going north and south. They were killing civilians.

It is the obligation of any responsible government to do what

ever it can in order to protect its citizens. Renamo, the leader of

Renamo at that moment, he went to the bush. What

we are doing is to make sure he does not rely on finance to do things.

People could go and visit him there and discuss with him there, but

instead of doing that, he started ambushing our troops. They had of

the Renamo movement has been in that position for about 30 years, and he

said that he could assume his armed campaign. He also said that you have

elections in your country in October. You can't stand for a third

term. You have been in power 2000 four. He won the election in 2009

with 55% of the vote. But he says that he is interested in coming out

of the bush to start his party worker

`` work for the presidential campaign. He wants to make sure her

safety will be guaranteed? He has to participate in elections. If you

follow what has been happening lately, you will find that some of

the issues that were raised were met positively by the government. We

have a electoral roll package and was met positively. That means he

had no reason not to go back and participate in the electoral

campaign. He is not just asking for that. He is asking for other things.

He wants Renamo members to be absorbed into the national army and

police. He wants wider economic powers. It was never a problem. Even

after the Rome agreement 20 years ago. That was the Coquard you signed

in 1982. Yes. One of the things was that you could take that to the

police and they could be part of his guard. There were many talks to the

police along that time. He agreed, but he never went to the police to

do something. He has his grievance is nevertheless. There have been six

rounds of talks. More than that. You need to find a formula so that you

don't see a resumption of the terrible conflict that affected your

country for so many years. A million people were dead. Millions more fled

their homes. You are now seeing almost daily attacks in Mozambique

between Renamo and your military forces. How will you going to ensure

that peace does not slip away from your country? I would like to

clarify one thing. There were no Mozambicans that were not affected.

Families, friends, neighbours, whatever from the north to the

south. Mozambicans are more interested than anybody to have this

situation clarified. The second element is that when Renamo decided

to attack along the main railroad from the south to the

north, people complained first, what about business? People are suffering

from the fear of this resumption of conflict. It is more our concern

than anyone else. What will you do? What they will do is to ask how I

will overcome this question. He says he has complained. I'm discussing

the merits of his complaint. There is no place in any government that

you don't have people who complain. Let us sit with him and discuss with

him. Let's have a group together. That was one of the first things I

said. We can work on a proposal. Then we both, we can sit and take a

decision. It is more than decisions. It is more than that. It had been

going like that. Today, we're not complaining that much. Both sides

are close. Both sides are close to an agreement so you believe you can

avoid a slide back into civil war. One of the reasons that people in

your country want to enjoy peace and stability is because the market

needs stability. You don't want to scare investors off at a time when

you have discovered amazing amounts of liquefied natural gas and thermal

coal. By 2010, Mozambique could be the world's third biggest gas

producer. How are you going to see that the people of Mozambique can

get the share of this mineral wealth that they deserve? You are talking

about the future. Let me talk about the present. You are already

exploiting your mineral wealth. Let's talk about coal. As soon as we

started using coal immediately, infrastructure started to be put in

place. That will take a long time. I'm talking about railways. And

talking about ports. Created new ones and upgrading the ones that

exist. That will mean that a lot of jobs are there. In the mines, a lot

of jobs are there. How are you going to make sure that people get the

fair share of the wealth they deserve? How do you mean fair? It is

subjective. I will give you an idea. A think tank in Paris says leading

figures in 3`D mode, or your party, the ruling party, is making use of

their links with the presidential claim to position themselves in the

mining sector. `` figures in the Frelino. That is a lie. Is it? Is

that intelligence unit did do a survey, it'd be interesting to see

who was where doing what. The beginning. Can I say, it is not just

this source that's as that. `` that says that. All Mozambicans, whether

they are the leaders or not, are not prohibited by law in in

participating in economic ventures. They talking about legal

involvement. That is completely forbidden. If somebody knows about

that, that is a matter of justice. You pass the laws, but the law on

probity that you passed in 2012 is largely ignored. Is it? You don't

like that source. I will give you a another one. In Tunisia, several

European countries, Norway, Spain, etc, all withdrew their budgetary

assistance to Mozambique. This was the reason cited by the Italian

ambassador. There are concerns over fiscal transparency, fighting

corruption and other outstanding issues and that is what has led to

some of Mozambique's partners to withdraw this fiscal budgetary

direct assistance. What do you say to him? He should know that he is

not telling the truth. That we have corruption in the country it is a

fact. That is why we are fighting corruption. If you go to the courts,

you will find many people involved in were taken to court. Some of them

are still there we can. We are not saying there is no corruption.

Second thing is that with this issue, it is a problem of the

leadership of Frelimo. Even the leaders, why can they not

participate if they are able to in creating wealth in the country and

providing jobs to people and the country? Because the criticism is

that a small elite associated with the ruling party and with strong

business interests are dominating the country. They don't say who is

doing what. That is the problem. Let me give you... These are

allegations. They are not allegations. I don't want to go into

specific cases. I don't want to try anyone on television will stop you

look at the mining sector. You can also look at the agricultural

sector. Since 2004 when you have been President, 6 million ages in

Mozambique have been used both to foreign and domestic investors.

There is one example in 2009, 20 5000 acres of abandoned state farm

were given to a Portuguese company. That Portuguese company promised to

double the amount of land to the people who were displaced from that

particular farm and promised a new school, promised a new clinic and

wealth and so on. Since then, nothing has been built. All the

villagers received was an ambulance. People who take the decisions do not

comply with the decision. These are issues on which we should take them

to court. We should use the resources and which we have in terms

of court `` law and regulations. Two thirds

of the workforce live off the land and you have to be mindful of how

you develop your agricultural resources. A non`profit organisation

says that the land in Mozambique is worked by small farmers, and yet the

government is placing it in the hands of corporations. I'm sure

there are some companies with good intentions, they are profiting from

low wages and low land prices. Industrial agriculture will be two

more exportation. `` lead to more. We have an agreement with a

Brazilian company and a Japanese company. That is to transform

agriculture from farming, subsistence farming into commercial

farming and to give training to those people that are involved

there. And it has started. In a short time, we are going to be able

to produce enough for consumption and also to be put

that into exports and processing. From what you're telling me, if

there are one two cases, were we may have a justice, that we should stop

everything and look at these two cases.

raising with you here today, Mr President. The one thing is, as I

said, how can you ensure that the people of Mozambique benefit from

the county's natural wealth and that is one point how you have got the

get the expertise right, you have got to get your negotiations with

multi`national corporations right, so you make sure you are getting

maximum benefits because there have been examples in your country in the

past when, for instance, the Bengar coal mine was sold to one big

multi`national corporation. You gave them tax ement seemions. If you had

paid Capital Gains Tax your country would have benefited by millions of

dollars. We had no experience on that. After that, yes. They paid

after that. That is what I am saying, you had no experiences. Have

you making sure you have got the expertise so, to put it bluntly, you

are not being ripped off by multi`national organisations. Today

all of the peep le are paying. Even when you go to gas, they are paying

their taxes. They must pay their taxes. You are saying that they are

now. Yes. The other point I was making, which is this point about

corruption, because you know Alice Moborta, the director of the

Mozambique 's Human Rights League and she says that people are verier,

very angry about corruption in Mozambique and you have accepted it

guess on. You you have been president for 10 year the point is

that your party, in fact, has been in power since independence in 1975

in Mozambique, that there is a grey area that private and public

officials ` it all merges into one and that you preside over the

system. (LAUGHS).

That is a fact. If you ` if we talk about government, you are talking

about a very complex process that involves goods, good people and

people who are not clear about things. If we taken a error, a

mistake, a crime and generalise them into the whole system, it can't

work. So, the government will not do anything. But if you identify the

specific cases, then I can assure you that the government will

continue to about. I am sure you are aware of them because, I mean, they

have been, you know, there was the WikiLeaks in 2009, which listed a

whole catalogue of alleged official corruption. Yes. You have got

transparency international, so many organisations. That say things that

you don't know if they are true or not. You have to investigate. We are

responsible government. Whoever speaks about the bad things will not

say they are just because they say the things are not correct. What I

do if something is told of importance, I follow that and

investigate that. If you look at the figures, though, for instance,

Mozambique still remains one of the poorest countries in the world. It

is something like 185 out of 187 in the United Nations development ``

Human development index. (LAUGHS).

Yes. Your battle is the fight to end battle for all citizens. Yes. You do

have this. Inequality is a big issue in your country. One fellow, a ka

pella of journalists there, is a agreeing divide between old and

young and rich and poor. We are the new generation, being educated and

want jobs. Are they educated? Well, yes. You have made some progress and

you have been `` You admit that. You have two Mozambiques, people living

in huts and shacks and then people `` If you go to the areas, rural

areas, you will find people living in beautiful houses, some of them

like that. Beautiful houses. They built them themselves because they

are working. They are working hard. But these average `` You still find

some people who live in huts, but it is less and less and less. Then you

have the luxury flats a the traffic jams because people `` Development

cannot just be a one`way thing. No, but you should have had in 10 years

a better record mraps on tackling poverty in your country and actually

the statistics have mooed slightly away because in 2003, according to

the Mozambicans national statistics, poverty levels were 54. 1%, by 2009,

they had gone up a bit to 54. 7%. That is on your watch. You know one

thing ` there is a joke that is spoken about which unfortunately

corresponds to reality. I am told usually today we are poorer than we

used to be. Even during corrupt period. I say to myself that is

impossible. That is a person that does not know the. Country that

would be commenting on those things. I am talking about those who write

and go and do surveys in huts and then they think that people just

live in huts and they forget that people have different tastes in a

way of life even in rural areas. Mozambicans at the moment of

independence, only one university and it is that university 2000

students of which only 40 were Mozambicans, today we have more than

40 institutions of higher learning. Teachers, most of them, are

Mozambicans and they are not in Muputu only. They I are spread all

over the country. Hospitals `` You have made progress, is what you are

saying. We are fighting poverty is what I am saying. We are fighting

against exactly the inequalities that you are talking about.

Universities are close to the people. Hospitals are close to the

people. Maternities are close to the people. Not to our ` the way that we

would like it to be, but that is the only way that you can have. All

right. You have elections in October for a new president. Your party has

been in power for all of Mozambique's independence. Wouldn't

it be better for democracy if you didn't have one party `` What

democracy did you ever see that will refuse the decision of the people?

If people accept, why should we refuse? Who are we, who am I to say

this people are wrong? I am the only one that is right. No. I think that

we have to accept that if the law allows, we must continue. Otherwise,

we are not going to be elections. We will say, "This time who will be

chairing ` this time is Armando and two years ago it will be MD or

something like that. "Did you see any country in the world that works

that way? Got to leave it there, president Guebuza. Thank you for

coming on Hard Talk. Thank you. It is quite a while to the weekend

across most parts of the UK. Some heavy rain and strong winds as well.

This is what it looks like from space. This mass of cloud working

its way northwards through the day. You can see the curl in the cloud.

That is indicative of a deep area of low pressure into the morning. Lots

of isobars across Scotland and northern England. We will see

blustery