Olexander Scherba - Ambassador-at-large, Ukraine Foreign Ministry HARDtalk

That is it. You are up to date. Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk. Vladimir Putin is reported to have

said he could take the Ukrainian capital Kiev in two weeks if he

wanted to. As he offers increasingly brazen support to the pro`Russian

rebels in eastern Ukraine, his message to the West is clear, don't

mess with Russia. My guest today is senior Ukrainian diplomat, Olexander

Scherba. Can Kiev afford to risk all`out war with Moscow?

Olexander Scherba, in Kiev, welcome to HARDtalk. Hello. It seems to me

your government has experienced a dramatic reality check in the last

week or two. It seems you believed it could be the separatist rebels

militarily and now that looks like a major missed judgement. Would you

accept that. `` Woodya accept that? I don't know whether you can talk

about it as a major missed judgement. We played with the cards

in our hands and we were basically winning this ward as you pointed out

and you are absolutely correct. But, it is one thing to fight the

terrorists to enjoy Russia's support and another thing to fight Russia

who enjoys the support of terrorists. We have no alternative

but to fight back. We have only one Ukraine. It wasn't our choice, this

war. After a thousand options, this would be the last one we would pick.

The reality is we have to fight back. I come back to the point about

this judgement. Did you and the government ever seriously think that

Moscow would simply watch as your forces rolled into and right through

Luhansk, Donetsk and the other cities currently in the control of

the rebels? `` missed judgement. We always knew that the full`fledged

invasion was real. It was an option that we had to be aware of. But, we

were hoping that the sanctions and the warning of further sanctions

from the West would suffice to stop Putin. But, basically, the signal he

is sending by moving in his regular troops is not only, don't mess with

Russia, but that he doesn't care about what the West says. And, the

West should maybe change the tactics on Ukraine. We will talk about what

you want to see from the West in a second bite you blithely talk about

the reality of Russian troops. Of course, Moscow denies that. They

have acknowledged a few men, by accident, ended up on Ukrainian

territory. They insist there is no wholesale invasion by thousands of

Russian troops. What is your proof of your absolute proof that Moscow

is lying about that? `` your proof, your absolute proof. First of all,

there are satellite pictures. Second of all, there are Youtube... Youtube

is flooded with reels of Russian tanks rolling in. Not everything you

see on Youtube is quite what it seems, is it? I am sure that you

know that. Third of all, Russian troops aren't really concerned with

secrecy. Almost every second, Russian soldiers have an account on

social networks and they are blurting out openly where they are

and what they are doing. So, these three... The first evidence is the

most important. The satellite pictures from Nato which leaves no

room for any other interpretation. Russian troops are in Ukraine. They

are a big. By the way, the first proof is the words by the

separatists themselves, their so`called Prime Minister just one

week ago thanked Russia on camera publicly for 1200 troops and 70

military vehicles supplied to Donetsk People's Republic. That was

one or two weeks ago. You can imagine it is much bigger. Maybe,

the ultimate proof, although it is something that you just have to take

as read in a sense, is that the total balance of military power in

the east has changed. In recent days, your forces... Absolutely.

Your forces have been made to retreat from Luhansk Airport, a

major strategic air port. We have seen barrier poll, an important

strategic city, under threat. It is obvious that your Ukrainian military

forces cannot compete `` Mariupol. The separatists seem able to call on

extra firepower. It depends on the spirit. 300 Spartans couldn't

compete with the army of Dareus the great. But, they did what they did

and we believe in our army. We know that we are on our land and we have

nowhere to retreat. We have to fight back. Russians are on our land, they

are the aggressors and they are slowly starting to realise that

their role here is very doubtful. President Poroshenko in Brussels,

speaking with EU leaders a few days ago said, I think we are close to

the point of no return and that point of no return is full scale

war. Is that something that you and other senior officials inside the

key of government are now planning for, full`scale war between your

country and Russia? It certainly is a possibility that we won't exclude

under current circumstances. We are in a surreal situation right now

because we say openly that Russia is conducting a war on Ukraine. But, we

are avoiding the formulation that Ukraine is at war with Russia. So,

it is a kind of diplomatic strange thing. But, we cannot afford right

now to declare war on Russia and give them the pretext to basically

send in brigade by brigade by brigade. How intimidated are you by

the words of Vladimir Putin? It is reported that he said to Jose Manuel

Flores so, the outgoing EU commission chief, I could take Kiev

in two weeks if I wanted to `` Baroso. Are you fearful when you

hear that message? I am not fearful. But, we are aware of how grave this

situation is and we are still hopeful that the West will help us

not only with words or sanctions, as important as they are, but in other

ways that are obviously very important when a nation fight a

war, especially with such a hateful and powerful enemy as Russia. You

are one of Ukraine's top diplomats. You tell me what Ukraine makes of

Western responses in recent days since we have seen the ratcheting up

of separatist military operations in the east, the new southern front

opening up, and EU Summit that we have had, which talked about

expanded sanctions but did not deliver and said they would talk

again over the following week to decide exactly what to do. You tell

me what you make of that response. Well, I won't hide from you some

messages that came from the summit were disappointing. To hear the

words that we don't see a military solution to the conflict and won't

supply Ukraine with weapons. It sounds good with Western audiences,

but the thing is that the other side does believe in the military option.

And, the other side has no scruples whatsoever to send in troops, to

supply troops, to supply regular Army. This particular point was

disappointing. Hang on, I have got to stop you there because you have

opened up a new split with your own president. Petro Poroshenko has said

in the past he does not believe that Europe or the West should supply

arms to your forces and you seem to be suggesting that they should. What

is Ukraine's real position? He said that Europe shouldn't supply the

troops. That is our position. We don't expect troops, but we expect

the equipment, we expect the military equipment. Right now, every

soldier, I am sorry, every drunk in those areas, those troubled areas of

Ukraine, is armed by Russia. Every person has a Kalashnikov in his

hands. And, we are running out of weapons here. For instance, we are

rather low on aircraft right now because Russia is so generous with

supplying these so`called separatists. This is what the

President was talking about. OK, so you do want arms, the problem is

that the Europeans are divided on this and while you have the support

of some European member states of the EU, that is I am thinking of the

Lithuanian president who did say that we need to help Ukraine defend

itself sending military materials. Your problem is that, rather more

significant EU leaders starting with Angela Merkel, say, quoting her, we

shouldn't create the impression that with weapons shipments and

strengthening the Ukrainian army, we could create a solution. She simply

does not see that as being in any way helpful. She also should be

worried about not creating an impression that Europe gives up on a

country who chose democracy and freedom and now is getting punished

for it by a country that hates Ukrainian freedom and free Ukrainian

democracy. I would strongly advise if Europe, the EU, because of major

misjudgement, because of the fear of Putin, for whatever reasons, or just

in the desire to have a successful recession in the economy, would give

up on Ukraine, would let Russiasplit and dismember Ukraine.

This will port Europe for ever. This would be the beginning of the moral

decay for the European idea. This is the only wart right now in the last

12 years that is purely about democracy and freedom. This is not

Afghanistan, this is not Iraq, were economic interests and energy is

involved. This is not Mali, this is not Kosovo where ethnic tensions

play a role. This is about Ukraine's choice for democracy and

freedom. And, Russia's attempt to punish Ukraine for this choice. You

used a classic diplomatic work, you said you were disappointed with what

you have recently heard from EU leaders. I wonder, let's forget the

diplomatic language and be honest with each other, how far would you

go, for example, Senator John McCain in the US are the Western response,

the inability of the West to stand up to Vladimir Putin has been, to

use his work, laughable. What word would you use?

One word was disappointing. That is the `` diplomat speak. I want you to

be honest. Beyond disappointed, how on negativity you feel about the

leadership that has come from the EU and Washington since this crisis got

so much worse, just a couple of weeks ago? One word would be weak.

The West looks really weak, especially in the face of a nation

that is power drunk, and nuclear nation. The West looks week and

decadent. `` weak. I am running out of words, sorry. For a diplomat to

say that is interesting in itself. What is also interesting, at the

same time as your condemnation of what you see from the Western

powers, your Prime Minister makes something of a U`turn and suddenly

declares that Ukraine is now very eager to be a full member of Nato.

It seems odd that on the one hand you condemn what you hear it out of

Nato member state and of the other hand you are trying to convince Nato

to let you join as a full member. Absolutely. There is no

contradiction whatsoever. Just look at the situation. It's very simple.

There are two groups in the country. One that can get attacked by Russia

and one that can't. The first one is a Nato member. The second is non`

Nato members. If you want to be the first group the logic is simple. But

it wasn't simple a few months ago, when I sat down with your Prime

Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk in Kiev. He assured me that, despite the

crisis, it was not on Ukraine's agenda to become a member or to seek

meant the ship of Nato. What on earth has changed? Are you now are

deliberately trying to antagonise Moscow in a deeper way? If you ask

me five months ago whether I would say yes to Nato expansion and to

Ukraine becoming a Nato member, I would say no. We had too much to

lose with Russia. The perspective of Nato membership was too flimsy, is

that the word? That's a word. It is a word that applies. Because it is

flimsy. It seems Nato members have absolutely no intention of

contemplating Ukraine's full membership of their organisation.

But now we have nothing to lose, basically, with Russia. Because

Putin has burnt all the bridges. He talks about Ukraine basically openly

as a failed state. He talks about Ukraine like Hitler spoke about

Poland in 1939. What should we are reaction? Appeasement? We don't

believe in that any more. But unless Nato member states want to

contemplate a full`fledged war between Nato and Moscow, they are

going to think very hard before taking seriously any application you

make for membership. Well, it's the decision you have to make. Our

decision is our decision and we have been as blunt, maybe not as much as

Putin, as blunt as he is with Ukraine, but we have spoken with

open language. We have had enough of this situation, where we are

basically I'm armed, undefended, unprotected. In 1994, we gave up the

third nuclear arsenal in the world. We were a superpower. We gave it up

for one reason, it was Russia, Great Britain, the US, France and China

gave asked the assurances that they would project I'll integrity, our

borders, our security. `` gave us. We now have nothing. We received a

total betrayal in return for the third biggest nuclear arsenal in the

world. That's our situation. Don't be surprised if we are bit angry. I

appreciate you are a bit angry and I can sense that. But surely you have

to be a realist. Russia is always going to be a massive power on your

eastern border. Russia isn't going anywhere and, in the end, rather

than making the symbolic gestures, saying you want to be a part of

Nato, which is a breadline for Moscow and it would never allow it

to happen, wouldn't it be wiser and more sensible for you and your

colleagues to get serious about a real dialogue? `` a bread line. Real

diplomacy? That's very difficult. It's very difficult to conduct

negotiations with the nation that calls Ukraine the formerly known

Ukraine, to a nation that spokes openly about Ukraine's

dismemberment. It would be wiser, instead of convincing Ukraine that

it should give up and be more fearful in the face of Russia, the

West should speak to Russia and speak to Putin and say, if you don't

want Ukraine to become a Nato member, if you don't want Ukraine to

be really difficult partner for you in the decades to come, then change

your attitude. But if we just get serious about what you might be

talking about at the moment, and of course you and your colleagues have

had meetings with the Russians recently and I believe there will be

more meetings to come, the question is what you are prepared to talk

about. The Russian UN envoy says, where is the inclusive, national

dialogue that was promised by Kiev? The constitutional reforms? The

decentralisation of authority? Special status for the Russian

language? The Russians don't believe you are serious about giving

recognition to these special `` to the special status of those people

in eastern Ukraine who are currently fighting for separation. About the

meeting in Minsk, you know the facts. The president of Russia

smiled at our president, shook hands, spoke about his and stood

up. `` about peace. The chair he was sitting on was still warm when he

ordered the tanks to roll in. Bear with us if we are bit sceptical

about whatever signals come from Russia. About the signals coming

from Russia, including this constant complaining by the UN envoy, until

recently the Prime Minister of the so`called Donetsk People's

Republic, that was a Russian citizen. He came on the orders of

the Russian government to start this turmoil. You know who the Defence

Minister was? He refers to himself as a Russian citizen, a big friend

of the man who also can disturb the turmoil. So, basically, who are we

supposed to talk to? Never mind that. It is an unbelievable tragedy

that has been brought onto us. We are almost out of time. We are where

we are. Some believe the only possible outcome in this situation

is for Ukraine to accept a formula perhaps like in Bosnia, where the

Republic has a huge amount of autonomy within a sovereign Bosnia.

Would you be prepared to accept that sort of solution in eastern Ukraine.

`` eastern Ukraine? I will tell you what we are not prepared to accept,

dismemberment of Ukraine. We are prepared to speak to Russians,

Russian citizens, or to the people who have Ukrainian blood on their

hands. Other than that, I'm not entitled to discuss any options but

I wouldn't be surprised if people in Kiev were very wary to any

reasonable suggestions coming right now. When Vladimir Putin says

statehood for eastern Ukraine has to be one option on the negotiating

table, what do you say to that? Well, he rephrased his words

afterwards and said the forms of statehood, the issues related to

statehood. It wasn't as director. I don't want to justify Putin but in

that particular case maybe he just blurted out something that was on

his mind but not the official line of the nation. Finally, you are a

diplomat, not an economist, but you know better than me that the IMF

says your economy will contract by at least 6.5% this year. Your

currency is down 6% against the dollar and your own Prime Minister

says you are losing economic potential by the day. Ukraine cannot

afford for this crisis to continue the way it has been going. Ukraine

couldn't afford this war in the first place, in March or April, and

it can't afford it in September. We are in a position where we have no

other option. But I just want to appeal to Europe. I know your

audience is enormous. Europe cannot afford to let Russia dismember

Ukraine. This would be a huge blow to Europe. Ukraine is fighting

Europe's war, not only the Ukrainian law. This war is about democracy and

freedom. `` war. Thank you for joining me from Kiev.

Thank you. The top temperature on Tuesday was

recorded